Why not more hybrids?

Sorry Mine is not a Subie. Never had heard that reference before in 55 yrs of being a automotive enthusiast. I am sure your pickup is not stock which invalidates any comparisons. Pickups who dash off the line like their racing have several time looked over to see me going by. :eek: Instant torque you know.
 
It's not really though, HFC's have been in development for quite some time, the first fuel cell vehicle was a tractor in the 1950's and there have been FCV's from many manufacturers, basically "beta tested" in the market since the early 2000's.
Yes it has been around but there was no real need to further develop it as gas was not demonized until recent. The advancement of EV could also be way more advanced if we want to compare as it has crudely been around since the 1800's. And again it falls the same fate as hydrogen, no real need until recent so the technology was idle for a long time.
The rate of uptake has been low and manufactures haven't put a lot into its development on the car front because it is far more challenging to work with than batteries and the infrastructure isn't there to support them. That's why we see BEV's from basically everybody now and that's the market that is rapidly expanding, while the Mirai is still a low volume product with essentially a niche for a certain type of consumer in a specific location.
Correct but the challenges of practical movement across the country is, I think/hope, being realized and hydrogen is being looked into further. As is the case where Germany just put the hydrogen trains into use. Why Kenworth is working with Toyota to develop heavy trucks that can run OTR without extended downtime for recharging and be refueled in 15minutes. Yes, California and around some cities in Canada are pretty much the market now but the tech will continue to develop as time goes on just like EV has.
It's a lot easier to plop EV chargers all over the place than hydrogen filling stations, and the logistics for delivering electricity are already taken care of, which isn't anywhere remotely near the case for hydrogen.

Then you have the HUGE stack of losses for hydrogen production, transportation and utilization.

A hydrogen FCEV is ~38% efficient, while a BEV is ~80%. Remember, both hydrogen and lithium-ion are storage mediums, hydrogen is not a power source.

But, a BEV uses power that's generated using a variety of sources and pulled directly from the grid, while an FCEV's loss stack starts with methane (from which 98% of hydrogen is produced) which is typically powered by methane at 40-50% efficiency, and the steam-methane reforming process is then 35-50% efficient, then we have to compress, store, and transport it, adding more losses still, then we use it in the FCEV at 38% efficiency.
Correct it is not as efficient as just using a battery and it is easier to plop a charger at existing gas stations. But the ability to travel uninterrupted across the country is a batteries weakness, well there are others but in this instance. As the tech grows for hydrogen so will the advancement of fueling stations. My serious question is... Why not develop the hydrolysis application for hydrogen if it is truly about the environment? My logical answer is there is no money if you can't buy something at a refueling station and just use water- I know it is more complicated than that but for a simplistic take on it, why not. Why don't auto makers build solar panels and alternators running off the wheels to do majority of an EV charging requirements, no money to be made. Same logic for cures for cancer, they are out there but there is no money in curing the disease.
It makes far more sense to just use the methane directly in a fuel cell, but methane is currently being demonized for its emissions, so we have this fancy-pants "solution" to hide the methane through this elaborate "green scheme" and absolutely demolishing efficiency in the process.
I agree it does but my take is we are in a more of a feel driven society right now than practical. Lithium is considered a hazardous material but folks have no problem riding on top of huge batteries.
 
I honestly just wish governments would allow manufacturers to build small, simple, cars. Lightweight + modern engine tech = high mpg and cheap. I’m actually interested in a mirage, because they are the closest to that, but the market cannot stand those things.
 
Why not develop the hydrolysis application for hydrogen if it is truly about the environment? My logical answer is there is no money if you can't buy something at a refueling station and just use water- I know it is more complicated than that but for a simplistic take on it, why not.
Do you mean electrolysis? Because it's inferior to methane reformation. It requires a LOT of electricity, something we don't have in the abundance required to make it happen. We have tons of methane, and because you can burn methane to power the process, that's why it is done. Also, the vast majority of hydrogen is used at refineries, so there's the proximity benefit as well.
Why don't auto makers build solar panels
Because their output is too low to yield any practical benefit.
and alternators running off the wheels
That violates the laws of physics. There is no "free" power, what you are describing is a perpetual motion machine. An alternator on the wheel would increase the load on the motors, which in turn would consume more electricity, and you introduce a stack of losses in the form of heat and friction with the alternator, so you don't even get back what you are losing through the increased load on the motor, so ultimately you would actually reduce range with this rig.

About the best thing we have is regenerative braking, to recoup momentum to charge the batteries when trying to slow. Since this uses the motor as a generator, it is extremely efficient.
to do majority of an EV charging requirements, no money to be made. Same logic for cures for cancer, they are out there but there is no money in curing the disease.
We are wading into fantasy territory here. I think I've adequately explained the issues with the above two, I'm not touching the cancer thing.
I agree it does but my take is we are in a more of a feel driven society right now than practical. Lithium is considered a hazardous material but folks have no problem riding on top of huge batteries.
And that's how we end up with things like California's insane duck curve and Germany spending more than 1/2 a trillion on wind and solar while still depending massively on coal. You make emotionally, rather than rationally based decisions, and things predictably become a Gong Show.

Another advantage with methane is we already transport it. The world is covered in natural gas pipelines, it doesn't have the transportation or packaging issues that hydrogen has, it's simply a much better choice for fuel cells and far less complicated to deal with. If we were serious, we would look at this further for these sorts of applications.
 
Do you mean electrolysis?
Yes. Wasn't thinking straight and couldn't find the word in my brain, rough night again w no sleep- truly couldn't find that word. I knew 95%ish of hydrogen is from methane reforming but wasn't sure with the electrolysis what stifles it's development.
Because it's inferior to methane reformation. It requires a LOT of electricity, something we don't have in the abundance required to make it happen. We have tons of methane, and because you can burn methane to power the process, that's why it is done. Also, the vast majority of hydrogen is used at refineries, so there's the proximity benefit as well.
because their output is too low to yield any practical benefit.
built in panels/alternators or some other means to help lessening the reliance of plugging into an outlet powered by fossil fuel is what I am trying to say. Take my point about the panels, at this moment yes not effective but the further development of it (or something else) should be a focus to improve them to have efficient output if this was truly about saving environmental and being less reliant on fossil fuels.
It appears not genuine and about corporations that sell cars knowing it will only last 10ish years vs now where there are plenty of 20+ yr old cars on the road Now you get a repeat customer every ten years as the repair cost is more than a vehicle is worth and/or more than most folks have in cash. Then another big corporation gets to charge more for folks to plug a vehicle into there homes. All with the help of the government sadly. Esp now mandating more electric requirements to a system that can't even keep power to it's customers currently without over taxing power grids.
About the best thing we have is regenerative braking, to recoup momentum to charge the batteries when trying to slow. Since this uses the motor as a generator, it is extremely efficient.

And that's how we end up with things like California's insane duck curve and Germany spending more than 1/2 a trillion on wind and solar while still depending massively on coal. You make emotionally, rather than rationally based decisions, and things predictably become a Gong Show.
Correct, emotions drive a lot of what is taking place. It is say anything to keep in power, your keep your base happy and figure it out later or hope to anyways. Both sides of the aisle do it.
Another advantage with methane is we already transport it. The world is covered in natural gas pipelines, it doesn't have the transportation or packaging issues that hydrogen has, it's simply a much better choice for fuel cells and far less complicated to deal with. If we were serious, we would look at this further for these sorts of applications.
I simply like the current hydrogen option, if forced into it as my choice of an alternative fuel vs electric. It can, once the infrastructure is there, keep my travel requirements similar to what I need and not stop every 30 minutes to an hour to charge an EV truck towing my camper. Which would probably also involve disconnecting my camper everytime and then pulling up to a charging station. Or take 2+ days to drive an EV car in what I can do in a day presently. Hopefully by the time all this comes to fruition there will be something better as an alternative or I will be old enough and won't be driving anymore.
 
built in panels/alternators or some other means to help lessening the reliance of plugging into an outlet powered by fossil fuel is what I am trying to say.
You just build a greener grid. Here in Ontario, average grid emissions intensity is lower than the lifecycle emissions for solar panels, same with Quebec, Manitoba and BC. This is quite achievable.

As I said, the alternator idea violates the laws of physics. We can go into the details if that if you like, but most simply, the basic tenet is that energy cannot be created or destroyed, just changed from what state to another. Ergo, if you are using energy to spin an electric motor to drive a wheel, you cannot then attach an alternator to that wheel and recoup more energy than you are expelling to drive the motor or even balance that out. You are introducing another load on the motor, which will increase consumption and another stack of losses into the process which will actually make the drivetrain less efficient.

The one thing we can harness is momentum, and use that instead of wasting that energy as friction/heat (braking), which is why EV's use regenerative braking.
Take my point about the panels, at this moment yes not effective but the further development of it (or something else) should be a focus to improve them to have efficient output if this was truly about saving environmental and being less reliant on fossil fuels.
There is a fixed amount of solar irradiance that the earth is hit with, which is a maximum of about 1,000W per square meter at its peak during the day, being lower than that the rest of the day. That's the maximum that can be harnessed with a 100% efficient collector that's at the perfect angle with the sun and able to turn the whole spectrum into electricity at 100% efficiency, which of course doesn't exist.

An average PV panel is able to produce ~165W per square meter, though this varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. What it produces in application will depend on its angle to the sun. Tracker arrays while remain closer to nameplate production for longer than say rooftop, which may never hit nameplate because it's never perfectly in-line with the sun.

So, if we look at the battery capacity of an EV, most are somewhere between 75kWh (75,000Wh) and 120kWh (Model S, F-150...etc) and we have a number of surfaces that we could work with here, the roof, the hood and the trunk. Of course none of these are going to be at the perfect angle to the sun to hit peak efficiency and our surface area is limited. For a sedan we might have what, 6 square meters? so 990W of potential; the ability to recover, at maximum, 990Wh per hour.

Now, this of course would not add any meaningful range in use. However, if you parked outside during the day and we assume that you might be able to average 50% efficiency due to poor angles for 5 hours, we could recoup ~2.5kWh (2,500Wh). Is this meaningful? Well, depends on how long your commute is. A Tesla Model 3 consumes, according to Edmunds, 25.9kWh/100 miles or 259Wh per mile. So, if your commute was under 10 miles and the car sat outside in direct sun all day while you worked, you might be able to recover your drive to work, before driving back home.

For somebody living in Ontario and charging at home off-peak at $0.082/kWh, this would save them 20.5 cents per day; ~$1.025/week; $53/year or $533 over the life of the vehicle, assuming it lasts 10 years.

So, you then have to consider how much cost and complexity this adds to to the vehicle, if you are spending more than $533 to have the built-in solar option, then you are ultimately losing money. It also introduces additional failure and problem points which could be problematic over the life of the vehicle.
It appears not genuine and about corporations that sell cars knowing it will only last 10ish years vs now where there are plenty of 20+ yr old cars on the road Now you get a repeat customer every ten years as the repair cost is more than a vehicle is worth and/or more than most folks have in cash. Then another big corporation gets to charge more for folks to plug a vehicle into there homes. All with the help of the government sadly. Esp now mandating more electric requirements to a system that can't even keep power to it's customers currently without over taxing power grids.
Yes, the battery lifespan is a problem, and I think everybody knew that, or should have known that, going in. Lithium-ion battery technology is extremely mature and well understood, both in terms of its benefits, as well as risk and limitations. That the government is pushing/mandating something while not having sufficient infrastructure in place to support it should surprise nobody. We constantly commit to emissions targets (like Paris) that we never meet.
Correct, emotions drive a lot of what is taking place. It is say anything to keep in power, your keep your base happy and figure it out later or hope to anyways. Both sides of the aisle do it.

I simply like the current hydrogen option, if forced into it as my choice of an alternative fuel vs electric. It can, once the infrastructure is there, keep my travel requirements similar to what I need and not stop every 30 minutes to an hour to charge an EV truck towing my camper. Which would probably also involve disconnecting my camper everytime and then pulling up to a charging station. Or take 2+ days to drive an EV car in what I can do in a day presently. Hopefully by the time all this comes to fruition there will be something better as an alternative or I will be old enough and won't be driving anymore.
But would you be opposed to skipping all that if we could just go the methane route, which could be realized almost immediately? That's an alternative here.
 
Last edited:
You just build a greener grid. Here in Ontario, average grid emissions intensity is lower than the lifecycle emissions for solar panels, same with Quebec, Manitoba and BC. This is quite achievable.
In the states where this is being mandated they can't even keep the grid running a lot of the times and have blackouts ever since I was a kid. Build greener sure but keeping it up and running is the biggest hurdle right now.
As I said, the alternator idea violates the laws of physics. We can go into the details if that if you like, but most simply, the basic tenet is that energy cannot be created or destroyed, just changed from what state to another. Ergo, if you are using energy to spin an electric motor to drive a wheel, you cannot then attach an alternator to that wheel and recoup more energy than you are expelling to drive the motor or even balance that out. You are introducing another load on the motor, which will increase consumption and another stack of losses into the process which will actually make the drivetrain less efficient.

The one thing we can harness is momentum, and use that instead of wasting that energy as friction/heat (braking), which is why EV's use regenerative braking.
I am saying if is truly about the environment there would be another recharge option being improved upon not arguing physics. It seems it has stalled at buy the car, plug it in, and when the batteries die you are short on luck and now buy another one. Now you have to recycle the previous car and round and round we go having people stuck in a constant state of debt till the die. Yet my 20 to 30yr old cars keep trucking along with minimal maintenance.
There is a fixed amount of solar irradiance that the earth is hit with, which is a maximum of about 1,000W per square meter at its peak during the day, being lower than that the rest of the day. That's the maximum that can be harnessed with a 100% efficient collector that's at the perfect angle with the sun and able to turn the whole spectrum into electricity at 100% efficiency, which of course doesn't exist.

An average PV panel is able to produce ~165W per square meter, though this varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. What it produces in application will depend on its angle to the sun. Tracker arrays while remain closer to nameplate production for longer than say rooftop, which may never hit nameplate because it's never perfectly in-line with the sun.

So, if we look at the battery capacity of an EV, most are somewhere between 75kWh (75,000Wh) and 120kWh (Model S, F-150...etc) and we have a number of surfaces that we could work with here, the roof, the hood and the trunk. Of course none of these are going to be at the perfect angle to the sun to hit peak efficiency and our surface area is limited. For a sedan we might have what, 6 square meters? so 990W of potential; the ability to recover, at maximum, 990Wh per hour.

Now, this of course would not add any meaningful range in use. However, if you parked outside during the day and we assume that you might be able to average 50% efficiency due to poor angles for 5 hours, we could recoup ~2.5kWh (2,500Wh). Is this meaningful? Well, depends on how long your commute is. A Tesla Model 3 consumes, according to Edmunds, 25.9kWh/100 miles or 259Wh per mile. So, if your commute was under 10 miles and the car sat outside in direct sun all day while you worked, you might be able to recover your drive to work, before driving back home.
This is what I am talking about. Yes you could get about enough to help charge your commutes, grocery runs, etc. and with the ave folks a lot of them are kept outside at work and home. So in the sunny states of Cali over to Florida you could get a good portion of the daily needs even thru the winters. And with the cars being outside all day in a lot of case you could do even better maybe, not all but better. And the cost to a lot of people that are concerned seems to not matter. I don't understand why but it doesn't maybe they think having a lot of payments is okay and they are used to it, idk.
For somebody living in Ontario and charging at home off-peak at $0.082/kWh, this would save them 20.5 cents per day; ~$1.025/week; $53/year or $533 over the life of the vehicle, assuming it lasts 10 years.

So, you then have to consider how much cost and complexity this adds to to the vehicle, if you are spending more than $533 to have the built-in solar option, then you are ultimately losing money. It also introduces additional failure and problem points which could be problematic over the life of the vehicle.

Yes, the battery lifespan is a problem, and I think everybody knew that, or should have known that, going in. Lithium-ion battery technology is extremely mature and well understood, both in terms of its benefits, as well as risk and limitations. That the government is pushing/mandating something while not having sufficient infrastructure in place to support it should surprise nobody. We constantly commit to emissions targets (like Paris) that we never meet.

But would you be opposed to skipping all that if we could just go the methane route, which could be realized almost immediately? That's an alternative here.
Of course I would, I am not a hater of fossil fuels but I do not like the EV or hybrid option.
 
I honestly just wish governments would allow manufacturers to build small, simple, cars. Lightweight + modern engine tech = high mpg and cheap. I’m actually interested in a mirage, because they are the closest to that, but the market cannot stand those things.
You mean direct drive EVs? 90% less moving parts than a simple ICE with transmission involved. I think cheap EVs are coming just so much demand for profitable models we wait for basic stuff with less margin.
 
You mean direct drive EVs? 90% less moving parts than a simple ICE with transmission involved. I think cheap EVs are coming just so much demand for profitable models we wait for basic stuff with less margin.
I have stated this before. I DO like electric vehicle technology, but I detest battery tech.

I have entertained the idea of a Nissan Leaf, but I don’t like that battery tech is exceedingly difficult to DIY. Who can DIY a lithium ion battery pack replacement? My newest car I have ever owned was a 2002. I don’t think lithium ion batteries can last that long, which wouldn’t be a problem if oems made them easy to replace! EVs are not so great for cheap people like me.

It just can’t be done in todays climate. Something simple like a 90s Honda Civic with a simple electric motor and easy to replace battery pack. And then there is the one issue I have with EVs which is climate control. AC and heat are such huge drains on batteries.
 
  • Like
Reactions: wlk
Another advantage with methane is we already transport it. The world is covered in natural gas pipelines, it doesn't have the transportation or packaging issues that hydrogen has, it's simply a much better choice for fuel cells and far less complicated to deal with. If we were serious, we would look at this further for these sorts of applications.
The problem with using methane for fuel cells is that it doesn't solve the greenhouse gas problem because using it emits greenhouse gases from the fuel cells, which is the primary reason for using hydrogen powered fuel cells in the first place.
 
The problem with using methane for fuel cells is that it doesn't solve the greenhouse gas problem because using it emits greenhouse gases from the fuel cells, which is the primary reason for using hydrogen powered fuel cells in the first place.
I understand that, but right now, almost all hydrogen is produced using and from methane, so it's literally more than twice as bad as just using the methane directly at this juncture.

Unless we embark on some global version of the Messmer plan, methane is going to be a key player going forward. Its role is HUGE, particularly in VRE heavy grids like Cali, South Australia, Great Britain, Germany...etc.
 
You mean direct drive EVs? 90% less moving parts than a simple ICE with transmission involved. I think cheap EVs are coming just so much demand for profitable models we wait for basic stuff with less margin.
Don’t forget that the motive power behind an EV is almost always some form of engine, driving a generator head. the exception being solar.

also don’t forget that the BTU’s of energy consumed to charge an EV via our 35% efficient grid is higher than a current model 41-44% thermally efficient engine directly driving the wheels (10% drivetrain loss)

there really is a reason the prius Camry and accord hybrids do so well on fuel. Not to mention diesel trucks
 
I have a ford fusion hybrid found out it has a battery age parameter that once it hits 10 years it will almost never use the electric motor and will favor the ICE more loosing MPG.Essentially making the battery and electric motor dead weight, people have used forscan to reset the age parameter to get the electric motor working correctly.
But lucky for my year model it isnt supported,it costs 3x more to replace my battery then it does to buy a long block.A great book on the EV debate is Racing Toward Zero : The Untold Story Of Driving Green they conclude hybrids are the best option for now compared to EV and the ICE hasnt reached its peak yet. I do question there hybrid conclusion part now knowing that hybrids are only hybrids for 10 years did there analysis take that into account?I also dont know if this just a ford thing, or if others do this as well.
 
I wonder is you took a Prius and removed the battery and all the electrics Battery , running gear etc and put an efficient engine in it. what would the MPGs be?
That's an interesting hypothetical question. After you remove all those components, you'd have to add back a conventional transmission, alternator, starter, and a larger 12-volt battery, so the weight savings might not be as great as you assume.

If the transmission and engine were the same as in a Corolla, fuel consumption would be similar to a Corolla---or slightly better, because of lower aerodynamic drag. You'd still have the Prius's more versatile interior+cargo space, in fact potentially even more cargo space than a real-world Prius, because the space occupied by the battery would be freed up. If the engine and transmission were more efficiency-oriented than those of a Corolla, this hypothetical vehicle could get close to the highway fuel economy of an actual Prius, but stop-n-go, low-speed fuel consumption would be higher. No worries about battery life expectancy! If Toyota or anybody else made such a vehicle, I would've bought it instead. The reason nobody does (or did at the time I bought my Prius) has more to do with marketing than technology.
 
A typical toyota hybrid has a 41% thermally efficient engine, and about 10% drivetrain losses. With total system efficiency about 35%. This makes the Toyota hybrid the overall efficiency leader When BTU consumed per mile is the metric

EV, are 40% less efficient when powered by todays grid. Our grid is 35% efficient and EV’s put 59-61% of grid power to the wheels. (Not including regen braking)
Please cite the 59-61% number. I’m not sure I buy that for a good ev at normal discharge rates. Well designed batteries at low rates can operate at >90%, well designed inverters >95%, etc.
 
"Why Not More Hybrids"?

Because they have a gas tank. And the government hates anything with wheels, that runs on fossil fuel.
Maybe if you want to inject P into it.

But that aside…

The fuel tank, fuel system, engine, transmission, generator, etc… adds parts.

I’ll be the first to argue against those who make claims about the simplicity or reduced parts count of BEV. Maybe at a macro level.

And I’ll be the first to say that Im a believer in hybrids, especially PHEVs, particularly after driving a hybrid for over 70k miles and touring in Europe with a PHEV that worked spectacularly.

But it’s pretty obvious that it does make for a more complex overal system, with a higher number of macro parts counts. And probably more stupid CAFE type testing for each variant, which if that’s a big enough reason for automakers to not offer MT cars in the past, imagine now.

I think that practically speaking, PHEV is the answer because it is so flexible, can be biased so strongly either way, and can be tuned in a very real way across the spectrum, small to large cars, and pickups through heavy trucks. Full torque at zero rpm is universally useful. The energy density of the fuel tank is universally useful. Ability to run on all electric is broadly useful.

The utility of PHEV as a scalable solution can’t be beat. Some other applications of bev make sense. But phev is much more useful.

But it adds pets count, and the pure play BEVs build more knowledge and capability at the moment.
 
The fuel tank, fuel system, engine, transmission, generator, etc… adds parts.
Here we agree. I'm no fan of hybrids because you have what is basically the worst of both worlds. Gas AND electric drive systems. Too complex. More to go wrong. And you can't get away from those expensive batteries, that sooner or later are going to need replacement.

Ignition batteries are getting expensive enough. These things are far worse.
 
You mean direct drive EVs? 90% less moving parts than a simple ICE with transmission involved. I think cheap EVs are coming just so much demand for profitable models we wait for basic stuff with less margin.
No matter how simple they are, there's still the issue of having a grid that can handle charging them, which is still decades down the road...
 
Here we agree. I'm no fan of hybrids because you have what is basically the worst of both worlds. Gas AND electric drive systems. Too complex. More to go wrong. And you can't get away from those expensive batteries, that sooner or later are going to need replacement.

Ignition batteries are getting expensive enough. These things are far worse.
So what's the solution? EVs are still years away from being practical, and the left is at war with fossil fuels. Hybrids are the only bridging technology available...
 
Why not more ICE's that get way better mileage than they do? It's been possible for decades.

No, I don't believe the earth is flat. But I do believe what I see.
 
Back
Top Bottom