Why not more hybrids?

[wlk]

Again, what’s the price on those vehicles? Do you even get to own them yet or are they still effectively rentals for people with guilty consciences?

Well the Hyundai and Toyota in the link it shows the prices, H- $60k and T- $50k.

What’s the price for a gallon-equivalent of hydrogen? 48 stations to cover 30 million plus people?

I have no problems pursuing alternatives. I have a BIG problem when government is picking winners & losers with money they’re taking from my pocket, especially when there is no or very low demand for what gvmt is pushing.

I agree 100% but if you want something that is able to drive for 1000 miles straight thru in a day like I do when I drive FL from PA to visit family or something that can tow my camper for more than 75 miles range before recharging, I usually tow 500-600 miles a day, hydrogen powered is the alternative not EV.
The electric company and car companies are the ones greasing the pockets of the politicians right now. That is why it is being forced down onto us.

If EVs are such a great idea, why is government having to pay people to drive them?

They are not great. They produce a huge environmental waste with mining and recycling lithium that the vast majority of consumers have no clue about. They do not last long, my friend had a 12 yr old Camry hybrid with 120k miles on when the batteries went bad on. She ended up trading it in as it cost more to replace batteries than the car was worth. She also didn't have the cash to pay for them outright and the overwhelming majority of EV owners will not either. So what is there options, buy another car. The car manufacturers are not looking out for the environment they know what will happen and will gladly force EVs onto us. Why would they not want us to buy a new car every few years? They hate us who keep our vehicles for over a couple hundred thousand miles, I have 5 vehicles and the newest is an 05. If you wanted a truly environmental EV car why would it not have solar panels built in or run high amp alternators running off it's wheels for the majority of its charging needs. But it is not it is plugged into another huge corporate electric company.

 

[wlk]

I guess my underlying point is, with nearly everyone I’ve talked to that’s “invested” in alternative fuel sources, whether it’s Priuses, solar panels, or even farmers that allowed wind turbines- 100% of them have essentially said “there’s no way I would have bought that if it wasn’t for the (rebate, tax credit, subsidy)” which proves the true demand for these are limited to those who are extremely fanatical about the technology, extremely well-off, or both. There’s no “hobbyists” who are plunking down 100% of their own cash on this stuff without expecting their neighbors to share their burden of purchase.

Yes you are correct all alternative fuel is government subsidized but not just in the US. Do I like it no but you and I have no control over it unfortunately. People feel they need to save the planet so that is what is driving it not the real demand for them. Do I think we should do what we can to be more environmentally friendly yes but EVs are not environmental sound if you really look what goes into making them or where they plug into for power. People tend to forget that plastic comes from oil and just about everything is made from plastic these days.

 

[wlk]

Cool info… and I’m sure Toyota is giving the fuel card out of the goodness of their hearts, right? No, it’s probably tied to a nice fat check from the government for Toyota.

Do you know (I don’t, I’m asking) what the cost of the Mirai is? I just did some dirty math and the fuel card is, at absolutely maximizing the fuel usage, good for 60k miles. It may make sense for some people, but it makes a whole lot less sense for a majority of them if there were no subsidies.

The Mirai is $50k and yes there are govt tax credits for buying them just like EVs. But it is a more useful alternative to a ICE that once is in more circulation will have a more practical application.

 

[wlk]

Hydrogen is going for about $16.51 per kilogram according to a Car and Driver article from 2021. The newest Toyota Mirai holds 5.6kg at 70MPa (~10,000psi) and has a rated range of up to 402 miles. And yeah… still basically a rental for people with guilty consciences, but hey Toyota will give you a $15,000 fuel card good for 36 months if you buy or lease one!

And if I lived in California and was forced to buy a new vehicle hydrogen is what I would buy.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

And if I lived in California and was forced to buy a new vehicle hydrogen is what I would buy.

Like i said, I’m acknowledging the fact that alternative fuels can make sense for some people in some cases. It’s the pandering & artificial controls rather than letting the market determine what’s viable (and at what cost) that I despise.

 

[OVERKILL]

Actually hydrogen fuel cells in vehicles are safe ask Toyota and Hyundai they make hydrogen powered fuel cell vehicles already. Canada uses it for I think some of there buses and is trying to get it developed for trucking industry. I want to say Vancouver has a hydrogen fuel cell refilling station and it takes about 4 or 5 minutes to fill them vs 45 minutes or longer for a plug in. Ford, Daimler and another company went in with Vancouver for the station/facility.
https://www.hyundaiusa.com/us/en/vehicles/nexo
https://www.toyota.com/mirai/

Hydrogen is not an easy to handle or transport storage medium. Yes, there has been some exploration of using it as an alternative to batteries (fuel cells are one example) but it does present a myriad of significant challenges. Also, the vast majority of hydrogen production is done using methane, powered by methane, so it's actually more polluting than just burning that methane directly.

At the present time, a methane fuel cell would be superior to a hydrogen one, in terms of emissions footprint.

 

[wlk]

Hydrogen is not an easy to handle or transport storage medium. Yes, there has been some exploration of using it as an alternative to batteries (fuel cells are one example) but it does present a myriad of significant challenges. Also, the vast majority of hydrogen production is done using methane, powered by methane, so it's actually more polluting than just burning that methane directly.

At the present time, a methane fuel cell would be superior to a hydrogen one, in terms of emissions footprint.

Agreed it is in it's infancy and has hurdles to overcome

 

[wlk]

Like i said, I’m acknowledging the fact that alternative fuels can make sense for some people in some cases. It’s the pandering & artificial controls rather than letting the market determine what’s viable (and at what cost) that I despise.

Whole heartily agree. It is why it is trying to be forced upon us as the market is not there. Heck the California grid has had blackouts since as long as I can remember and it is not fixed for just normal home usage. Now no gas vehicles sold in California in 10 years, what an out of touch decision.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

I’d argue they know exactly what they’re doing: they’re going to control where people can live, how far they can go, and when they can get there. It’s why they’re densifying what are currently rural areas, building subsidized housing, increasing public transportation & high-speed rail (ha!), and pushing EVs with limited range that they can also simply shut off the charger when you’ve reached your monthly allotment of electricity (or been a bad, bad boy on your social credit score). It’s 1000% for power and control over other people; they’re simply using fear & legislative fiat to strip people of being able to choose their own path in life.

Whole heartily agree. It is why it is trying to be forced upon us as the market is not there. Heck the California grid has had blackouts since as long as I can remember and it is not fixed for just normal home usage. Now no gas vehicles sold in California in 10 years, what an out of touch decision.

 

[wpod]

Toyota is very anti EV since thay are heavily invested in hybrids and spent lots in R&D. They just now made after curomenr/investors/peer pressure a crapy that has wheels literally falling off. Almost seems like it was on done on purpose to prove their anti EV mantra in this past years.

I wonder is you took a Prius and removed the battery and all the electrics Battery , running gear etc and put an efficient engine in it. what would the MPGs be?

 

[wlk]

I’d argue they know exactly what they’re doing: they’re going to control where people can live, how far they can go, and when they can get there. It’s why they’re densifying what are currently rural areas, building subsidized housing, increasing public transportation & high-speed rail (ha!), and pushing EVs with limited range that they can also simply shut off the charger when you’ve reached your monthly allotment of electricity (or been a bad, bad boy on your social credit score). It’s 1000% for power and control over other people; they’re simply using fear & legislative fiat to strip people of being able to choose their own path in life.

Don't forget, why some countries are going to electronic currency, maybe not speaking it as reality saying it is saving money but it is always the elephant in the room. What a better way to control someone is taking away where they can spend there money. Very easy to flip a switch and set geographic zones where you must stay and if you go out it your money is denied but I digress.

Although I do feel high speed rail done right has viability. I would rather take a train and watch the scenery than empty space of clouds. Hate flying, I do it but hate it.

Edit.. Sorry deleted my political rant....

 

[wag123]

I wonder is you took a Prius and removed the battery and all the electrics Battery , running gear etc and put an efficient engine in it. what would the MPGs be?

You would have a Corolla, 30 city /38 highway MPG.

 

[OVERKILL]

Agreed it is in it's infancy and has hurdles to overcome

It's not really though, HFC's have been in development for quite some time, the first fuel cell vehicle was a tractor in the 1950's and there have been FCV's from many manufacturers, basically "beta tested" in the market since the early 2000's. The rate of uptake has been low and manufactures haven't put a lot into its development on the car front because it is far more challenging to work with than batteries and the infrastructure isn't there to support them. That's why we see BEV's from basically everybody now and that's the market that is rapidly expanding, while the Mirai is still a low volume product with essentially a niche for a certain type of consumer in a specific location.

It's a lot easier to plop EV chargers all over the place than hydrogen filling stations, and the logistics for delivering electricity are already taken care of, which isn't anywhere remotely near the case for hydrogen.

Then you have the HUGE stack of losses for hydrogen production, transportation and utilization.

A hydrogen FCEV is ~38% efficient, while a BEV is ~80%. Remember, both hydrogen and lithium-ion are storage mediums, hydrogen is not a power source.

But, a BEV uses power that's generated using a variety of sources and pulled directly from the grid, while an FCEV's loss stack starts with methane (from which 98% of hydrogen is produced) which is typically powered by methane at 40-50% efficiency, and the steam-methane reforming process is then 35-50% efficient, then we have to compress, store, and transport it, adding more losses still, then we use it in the FCEV at 38% efficiency.

It makes far more sense to just use the methane directly in a fuel cell, but methane is currently being demonized for its emissions, so we have this fancy-pants "solution" to hide the methane through this elaborate "green scheme" and absolutely demolishing efficiency in the process.

 

[Hermann]

Hybrids will be much more popular under the next administration and when petrol takes its next leap up.
Whether anyone believes it or not I actually use the Sport Mode when I embarrass cir 2010-2015 full size v-8 pickups. You know the type, loud, lifted package extensions. Most of them can't do 0-60 in 10 seconds, Maverick hybrid 0-60 in 7.5 seconds. Especially after I put my FX 2 Hybrid stickers on the Maverick. Best part is I'm still getting 42+ MPG since new. Them 15 mpg at best.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Hybrids will be much more popular under the next administration and when petrol takes its next leap up.
Whether anyone believes it or not I actually use the Sport Mode when I embarrass cir 2010-2015 full size v-8 pickups. You know the type, loud, lifted package extensions. Most of them can't do 0-60 in 10 seconds, Maverick hybrid 0-60 in 7.5 seconds. Especially after I put my FX 2 Hybrid stickers on the Maverick. Best part is I'm still getting 42+ MPG since new. Them 15 mpg at best.

My truck has done 0-100 in 10.6 seconds (video on here), I can knock down 24+ on the highway and clear 800 miles easy on a single tank, and can pull 9k+ through the mountains without breaking a sweat.

If I was in the market for a chick-up truck, Maverick may be the one just because the price of admission is reasonable.

 

[grampi]

There's nothing wrong with EVs. The problem is having them shoved down everyone's throats when the infrastructure to support them isn't anywhere near where it needs to be. Why not just allow their evolution to take place naturally? Let the law of supply and demand bring them online. States (or any gov body for that matter) placing deadlines on being able to purchase ICE powered vehicles is ridiculous and will eventually have to be pushed back anyway. Operating ICE powered vehicles is not an existential threat to the planet, as many claim. I'm all for having as many choices as possible. Let consumers decide what type of vehicles they want to drive...

 

[grampi]

Simpleton? LOL. Hardly. The change will happen, granted it's a couple of decades away, but why cripple the oil industry, and drive prices higher, causing inflation while we wait? The current admin was very clear of their position on the oil industry and their dislike for it.

This is exactly what I was talking about. EVs need to evolve based on the demand for them, not because governments force them on us. The gov needs to keep their noses out of this issue...

 

[Hermann]

If I was in the market for a chick-up truck, Maverick may be the one just because the price of admission is reasonable.

Beings you needed to insult my Maverick.
At least It's not a bubba d-bag disturber of the peace Pickup

 

[Rmay635703]

If EVs are such a great idea, why is government having to pay people to drive them?

A few EVs get a tax credit but then you get the crap taxed out of you when you go to register in 30 of 50 states, so I think a more accurate comment is why does the government give you a loan that gets paid back in ever increasing taxes?

Also,
Tesla is selling plenty of BEVs and the gov isnt giving any refunds until next years sales.
#1 in sedan sales without a free handout.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Beings you needed to insult my Maverick.
At least It's not a bubba d-bag disturber of the peace Pickup

not sure how you took that as an insult, especially since I said I’d buy one, nor why you incorrectly assume I’m a hillbilly, dbag, or rude to my neighbors. My truck is 100% stock on the outside, including full factory exhaust.

Chick-up truck is simply a term for vehicles that appear to be pickups but do not have the same capabilities as even a half-ton. AFAIK, The term was originally coined for the Subaru Baja, so maybe go outside & get some fresh air & sunshine?