Why isn't High Mileage oil the "standard" oil?

[OVERKILL]

I see. So HM oils must absolutely have ester and maybe even some PAO is a myth! I mean some may but there is no guarantee!

Yeah, and if they carry an API or ACEA certification, they have to pass the same seal compatibility tests as any other oil.

 

[kschachn]

I see. So HM oils must absolutely have ester and maybe even some PAO is a myth! I mean some may but there is no guarantee!

What myth was this that they did?

Seal swelling compounds can and are added to all base stock compositions.

 

[OilUzer]

What myth was this that they did?

Seal swelling compounds can and are added to all base stock compositions.

I've never bought any HM oil and never dove into that department i.e. the pros and cons of it or marketing, etc.
However, I have read posts that some people are buying HM oil because it must have ester ... hence the myth.

Now why are they specifically chasing ester is another question I can't answer. Maybe they think they are getting a better oil at a cheaper price. Not sure!

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

You can't sell assist living to young teenage who wants to look sporty is the example I would use.

But yet, that’s exactly how a majority of teenagers (and many college-aged students) survive… assisted living. They depend on their parents and/or taxpayers.

 

[PandaBear]

But yet, that’s exactly how a majority of teenagers (and many college-aged students) survive… assisted living. They depend on their parents and/or taxpayers.

You don't get it. The teens don't pay for it, the parents do. If you want to sell these you have sell to the parents not the teen.

 

[The Critic]

There isn't necessarily some "seal conditioning" additive in the oil. The seal conditioning/swelling that prevents leaks is coming from the group 5 base oils (esters, AN, etc) inherent seal swelling properties, which are blended into oils to varying degrees to counter the PAO inherent seal shrinking effects. Group 1-3, and especially group 4 (PAO) tend to shrink seals and make them more brittle over time. So conventional (group1-3) and "synthetic blend" (group 1-3/4) oils will not protect seals to the same degree as a group 4/5 full synthetic oil. The Amsoil SS is a good example of a group 4/5 full synthetic oil with a good dose of ester. "High mileage" is a marketing term for added ester/AN because the average person buying oil has no idea what esters/AN or oil groups mean and how they affect their engine.

These days with most (all?) the high miles oils carrying the same API SP license the seal swelling requirements are the same as a non high miles oil. It’s largely irrelevant.

Marketing.

I do not agree with those statements - additive suppliers do sell "boosters" to blenders for HM products. Whether or not they are needed, is up to the individual customer.

https://www.aftonchemical.com/resou.../gf7-update/go-beyond-performance-with-afton/

 

[OilUzer]

I do not agree with those statements - additive suppliers do sell "boosters" to blenders for HM products. Whether or not they are needed, is up to the individual customer.

View attachment 283907
https://www.aftonchemical.com/resou.../gf7-update/go-beyond-performance-with-afton/

It says "boost options" are for wear protection and removing sludge deposits in older cars ... Maybe it's just a dash of moly + VRP.

However, it is not saying that the booster is for seal conditioning in older cars!

 

[Astro14]

I do not agree with those statements - additive suppliers do sell "boosters" to blenders for HM products. Whether or not they are needed, is up to the individual customer.

View attachment 283907
https://www.aftonchemical.com/resou.../gf7-update/go-beyond-performance-with-afton/

That’s fair - I was half tongue in cheek.

Look, a well-maintained car doesn’t really need high mileage oil.

I’ve taken a couple of cars to 300,000 miles without using high mileage oil.

So, is it required? Absolutely not.

Might it help some cars? Probably.

 

[OVERKILL]

I do not agree with those statements - additive suppliers do sell "boosters" to blenders for HM products. Whether or not they are needed, is up to the individual customer.

View attachment 283907
https://www.aftonchemical.com/resou.../gf7-update/go-beyond-performance-with-afton/

Well well well, this just underscores that the API standards continue to be a relatively low bar for lubricant performance. @buster check this out.

But yes, elastomer compatibility is not a fixed target, but more of a spectrum/range that a blender is "good to go" as long as they meet the requirements. So there's nothing stopping them from using more seal conditioners, as long as performance doesn't fall outside that range, in their HM offerings.

 

[buster]

They only increased WPD average to 4.6 from 4.4 too. Not much of an improvement for GF-7 it seems. I think I posted recently even dexos gen 3 is 5.4 min for WPD. GF-7 remains a low bar to pass.

 

[buster]

It says "boost options" are for wear protection and removing sludge deposits in older cars ... Maybe it's just a dash of moly + VRP.

However, it is not saying that the booster is for seal conditioning in older cars!

The EP oils are essentially boosted that's why they exceed these tests by a significant margin. It's not like Mobil 1 EP has a WPD average of 4.6 just because it meets SP/GF-7. Amsoil scored a 7.7 in 2014 on the IIIG test. In the IVA/B wear test most oils show they score well below the 90-micron max. Amsoil intentionally used their 0w20 to increase the severity of the test and scored 20 microns. For oxidation resistance on the IIIH, Mobil 1 EP exceeded the limit by 20x. You kind of get what you pay for. Your low-cost bulk oils are the ones that are likely scraping by on these tests if I had to guess.

 

[kschachn]

I do not agree with those statements - additive suppliers do sell "boosters" to blenders for HM products. Whether or not they are needed, is up to the individual customer.

View attachment 283907
https://www.aftonchemical.com/resou.../gf7-update/go-beyond-performance-with-afton/

As already noted it doesn't say a thing about seal swelling additives, does it?

 

[SC Maintenance]

You don't get it. The teens don't pay for it, the parents do. If you want to sell these you have sell to the parents not the teen.

You must not have a teen. They come to you and say "dad give me money". Well its more flowery and rehearsed. And you give them money because - well I don't know why. But you do.

 

[PandaBear]

You must not have a teen. They come to you and say "dad give me money". Well its more flowery and rehearsed. And you give them money because - well I don't know why. But you do.

I have a 13 year old so I guess I will see that soon. So far they have been saving up and didn't spend much yet or at least not yet ask me for money. I'm sure it will change soon.

 

[The Critic]

As already noted it doesn't say a thing about seal swelling additives, does it?

We'll need to get a copy of the data sheet to confirm this.

 

[buster]

Just a high level question and response since we don't want anyone having to write a book for us.

What are seal compatibility test requirements and how is it tested?
Also how many different seal materials are out there (e.g. fancy cars vs. what I drive) and to what extend or % are the seal materials the same?

To meet for example API SP, is it just on paper that it (seal compatibility) was taken into consideration and based on xyz chemical reactions, this oil is compatible with majority of seals ...
Or a real test running in an engine and/or abusing the seal for 5,10,20,50K miles? Or experience gained over decades with the material so it can be rubber-stamped?

Another Q:
As an example, iirc one of Audi tests (Part of A40?) require a track test which is a rigorous test that some others may not conduct or at least not to that extreme. Are there other more extensive seal compatibility tests relative to SP for example?

Quite a few but the OEM should have taken any guesswork out of it. I just watched this out of curiosity now that the topic popped back up. Still don't know exactly if swellers and conditioners are the same thing.

 

[Hohn]

Quite a few but the OEM should have taken any guesswork out of it. I just watched this out of curiosity now that the topic popped back up. Still don't know exactly if swellers and conditioners are the same thing.

My understanding is a “sweller” is designed to replicate the effect of a mineral base on seal running geometry (i.e. physical size) while a “conditioner” is design to soften and/or prevent the kind aging typically associated with oxidation (especially ozone) and plasticizer cook-off.

 

[Evo9isLife]

Aren't esters/ANs a positive/sought after in an oil? Should BITOGers be pro-HM then?

Yes, group 5 oils have several benefits other than the seal swelling. Basically any full synthetic will have some group 5 but the amounts vary

 

[Evo9isLife]

So in the case of a semi syn "HM" oil like Havoline 10W-30 - are you saying they add Group 4/5 to some Group 1/2 - likely? Or is there more to it?
https://www.chevronlubricants.com/en_us/home/products/havoline-high-mileage-synblend-motor-oil.html

Yes anything that says synthetic or synthetic blend means it has at least some group 4 PAO, and likey a bit of 5 to help counter the 4 but not always.

 

[Evo9isLife]

Due to this, do you think a non-HM oil with ester content, such as the 0W grades of Mobil 1 ESP, would be basically as effective at "swelling" older seals as a typical non-Euro spec high mileage oil?

Yes. To what extent depends on the amount of PAO and esters used in the blend. The group 5 base oils are the main contributor to the seal swelling of HM oils. Group 5 is also great for cleaning engines.