Why is oil consumption so common?

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Originally Posted By: Cold_Canuk
New Subaru FB25 engine has oil consumption issues.......sucks to own one........


not all in my experience.

my 2011 forester uses about .5qt/5000 miles. I wouldnt call that consumption..

OTOH my Dad's 2013 outback uses 1qt/3000 miles... And it has all the updates mine didnt...
 
Originally Posted By: LazyPrizm
Sometimes it's flaws in design... 98-02 Corollas and Prizms had insufficient (2) oil return holes in the pistons, which could become clogged if oil changes were improperly extended or neglected. Some folks saw better results if they ran syn from the start.

Toyota added more holes in later 1ZZ-FE engines... problem mostly solved.


+1 Same with some of the 2AZ-FE engines. I have one and it has just started to consume at 80k.
 
I ran a 6K OCI and lost .5 quart in my Focus. Not too bad for something that does get short tripped.

My Cherokee's RMS is weeping more and more along with the VC gasket. It leaks about a quart in 5000 miles.
 
That is beyond weeping..its crying out for the gasket to be changed
cry.gif
 
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It's been years since I had a vehicle that I had to add oil between OCIs.
Me, I'd add oil if it was 1/2 way between full & add. The 3 vehicles I currently have, I barely notice any level change and they don't smell of a bunch of fuel. I still do regular routine level checks though because ya never know when suddenly one has an abnormal level drop.
 
Oil is naturally consumed in the combustion process, no oil control rings have a perfect seal. The amount that is consumed varies on multiple factors.
 
Originally Posted By: Nick1994
Reading through BITOG I have noticed a lot of people who are very perticular with using top of the line oil at certain intervals say their car burns a quart over 2k miles or 2 quarts in 5k miles and so on. Why is this so common, especially since it seems these cars are owned by people who take great care of them?


Previous owner's fault.
 
Originally Posted By: JOD
I don't think 2 qts per 5K is common, at all. A quick look through the UOA section shows that's quite unusual. I also don't think consumption has increased. If anything I think on the whole consumption in engines has decreased. It's just more noticeable since factory OCI's are longer. With a 3K OCI, 1 quart every 10K isn't that noticeable; over 10K, it's noticeable.

All cars consume some oil, it's just more noticeable when you extend the OCI. Over the last 30 years I've been driving, it seems that on-average cars consume less oil now than in the past.


Agreed, 3K mi per qt is nothing, still I wouldn't bother having having a UOA on a engine that needed oil at less than 5K mi intervals, guessing most agree...

Prior to better machining and today's limp piston rings(before mid '80s), few engines could claim they went much farther than 3K mi without needing topping up... And those old stiff piston rings?? All they did was wear the cylinders out by 100K mi or so and you were lucky not to use a quart in 1000/1500 mi...
 
You can your oil at 4k and notice no consumption, maybe it will start consuming higher into the drain say 5 or 6k+. Sometimes it takes an extended drain to notice consumption on an otherwise healthy engine.

Also your using high mileage oil to begin with no consumption issues.
 
Originally Posted By: Cold_Canuk
New Subaru FB25 engine has oil consumption issues.......sucks to own one........


Mine has not consumed any noticeable oil at all.
 
Originally Posted By: TFB1
All cars consume some oil, it's just more noticeable when you extend the OCI. Over the last 30 years I've been driving, it seems that on-average cars consume less oil now than in the past.


Agreed, 3K mi per qt is nothing, still I wouldn't bother having having a UOA on a engine that needed oil at less than 5K mi intervals, guessing most agree...

Prior to better machining and today's limp piston rings(before mid '80s), few engines could claim they went much farther than 3K mi without needing topping up... And those old stiff piston rings?? All they did was wear the cylinders out by 100K mi or so and you were lucky not to use a quart in 1000/1500 mi... [/quote]

Pretty much the truth, all engines are different due to differing drivers and environments.

Remember the huge ridges in cylinders after 100k miles. Like a stair step at the top of the bore!

Varies from rig to rig. We've had half a million miles on a 6.0 V8 that never smoked, dripped or used oil, and we have much younger units that do use a little.

I think the Internet tends to amplify things much more these days. We simply know too much...
 
Originally Posted By: Rand
Originally Posted By: Cold_Canuk
New Subaru FB25 engine has oil consumption issues.......sucks to own one........


not all in my experience.

my 2011 forester uses about .5qt/5000 miles. I wouldnt call that consumption..


Originally Posted By: Cooper
Originally Posted By: Cold_Canuk
New Subaru FB25 engine has oil consumption issues.......sucks to own one........


Mine has not consumed any noticeable oil at all.


In a way these posts illustrate how the problem is often as much about perceptions as anything else. The original poster "cold_canak" doesn't specify exactly how much consumption he's talking about, merely that it's an issue that "sucks". The problem is that some people will consider any oil consumption in a relatively modern car to unacceptable. So two different people could be getting the same consumption, and for one it "sucks" while for the other it's no problem.

I think that the reason why some people get so upset over a seemingly small amounts of oil consumption is that they see it as a proxy of overall engine health/wear, even though that is of course not necessarily the case. For example, say someone previously owned a car that didn't start using noticeable oil until it had 250000 miles on the engine, and then used 0.5 quart per 5000 miles. Then say they buy a new car and it's using about 0.5qt/5000 mile from the get go, then in their mind (and only in their mind) it's as if their brand new engine is already as worn as their previous was at 250000 miles.
 
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Re: why is oil consumption so common?

Changes in engine design.
A common offender is PCV and breather systems. Under loads, excessive blow by overpressurizes the crankcase and drives oil vapour into the intake tract. In this case, the PCV may appear to be a problem, but on second thought, the blowby should never be that excessive even under load.

With the rings next in line for interrogation, we look at the industry wide move to lower ring tension, and strutted pistons with short compression heights. If done correctly it should not increase oil consumption. At the risk of sounding like a fanboy, a prime example of this is the Skyactive engines as they use extreme examples of both, but generally tend to keep their oil- trust me, I'm on the lookout for Skyactiv offenders. LT rings have been in use for many years across the board. The problems arise IMO from manufacturing variances and/or lack of diligence.

To design an engine with proper ring action throughout it's life requires balancing a few design parameters- all relating to ring seating.
-piston-cylinder wall clearance
-wall finish (hone)
-piston crown design
-piston ring design
-cylinder wall contact pressure (BMEP effected on ring)

Piston-Cylinder Wall clearance
The greater the clearance, the more effect a given BMEP can act on the rings. Great for ye olde days, dedicated race engines and small engines, however industry trend has been reducing this clearance.

Wall Finish (hone)
Variances are largely manufacturer dependent according to tooling preferences and/or intentional like Cadillac's NorthStar racing hone which did not bode well with tepid senior style driving, or even normal operation. Directly affects rate and quality of ring seating.

Piston Crown design
Aside from wall-piston clearances, the shape of the crown's circumference affects how well BMEP can affect the ring. A tapered design will allow more effect on the ring with same BMEP. A shorter distance to the top ring land producing a shallow crevice will have the same effect, and vice versa.

Piston ring design
Ring tension aside, thicker or thinner rings will require more or less BMEP respectively to exert the same contact pressure. Also, ring face design ie tapered, cutaway, gapless will effect contact pressure. Wiper rings tend to be tapered to act as a 'check' for oil allowing oil to be deposited on the wall on the upstroke, and scraped off on the down stroke. We've seen assembly defects where at least the wiper ring is installed upside down and operating in reverse. Oil control rings contrary to popular belief are not intended to 'seal oil out', they literally control the amount of oil supplied to the wiper (2nd) ring, so that oil deposited onto the wall is not uncontrolled.

Cylinder Wall Contact Pressures during wear in
This is affected by all other the other design variables. The required Contact Pressure to seat the given ring on the given hone.


When some designs changes are implemented without adjusting the other ones or revising procedures, we see increased oil consumption.

Regarding break-in, there is debate about how, when and who is responsible for it. It's undeniable that this varies wildly among manufacturers, as well as their break-in recommendations. Personally, I do what I can to ensure the best break-in possible and initially operate my engines hard (around the torque peak is the target). No matter how precise machining is becoming, fitting a pre-formed ring to a pre-machined bore will always have produce variances. Causing a ring to contract or expand just slightly beyond it's perfectly round shape (the specified ring gap), will cause a leak virtually all around because it no longer (or never) follows the wall exactly. Larger bore exasperates the effect. It's true that machining is getting very precise even in volume production and engines are coming off the line tighter, but the rings in particular still must mate to the bores. The consequences of failure for that to happen, results in unhappy motorists and outrageous normal consumption limits.
 
What a long and comprehensive writeup!

However it misses the most common culprit of oil consumption, at least in recent toyota engines that I'm familiar with: worn out oil controls rings, due to dirty oil controls rings grove, due to plugged piston oil holes, due to oil thermal/oxidation break down, due to very hot pistons, due to the race to high fuel efficiency and low emissions. Pure and simple. The existing (cheap) API certified oils are/were not good enough for the OCIs as specified and prevalent driving conditions.

The recent move to synthetic oils requirement (by specifying 0W20 oils) is a way to deal with the API certification deficiency and having a positive CAFE effect as well. But, it also may produce worse oil consumption in older, worn out engines.
 
yes fj, latent defects and older engines notwithstanding. Toyota combustion metrics are no different than anyone else'. Who doesn't have to meet emission requirements? Improper cooling, insufficient oil flow, oil oxidative stability all contribute to ring coking, or the resistance to it. Most new engines are not BBQing their rings, though especially not new engines as I was talking about.. No engine should do that with normal combustion, unless it's inadequately cooled, has excessive blowby or both.
 
So,then,if blowby is reduced,crankcase pressure is reduced,burning is reduced,and seals may stop leaking. Right?
 
Originally Posted By: FZ1
So,then,if blowby is reduced,crankcase pressure is reduced,burning is reduced,and seals may stop leaking. Right?


Depends on their age/condition....
 
Originally Posted By: FZ1
So,then,if blowby is reduced,crankcase pressure is reduced,burning is reduced,and seals may stop leaking. Right?
Originally Posted By: KitaCam
Originally Posted By: FZ1
So,then,if blowby is reduced,crankcase pressure is reduced,burning is reduced,and seals may stop leaking. Right?


Depends on their age/condition....


True.If blowby exceeds the venting capacity then that can make leaks appear/worse. I've seen ventilation systems that were intentionally disabled cause seals and block-off plugs to pop from blowby.
 
There should never be large amount of pressure in the crankcase from blowby, any excess will be vented back into the air intake which is then pulled into the engine... Only if this portion of the system was plugged would there be a problem...
 
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