I know that there are some newer high mileage oils that are full synthetics, but it looks like the majority of high mileage oils are only partially synthetic or a synthetic blend. Anybody know why this is?
Why is most High Mileage oil only partial synthetic?
- Thread starter Big_3_Only
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I'm thinking it is about price point. A lot of people driving older and high mileage cars want to use cheaper oil, especially if it leaks or burns some oil.
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Originally Posted by Big_3_Only
I know that there are some newer high mileage oils that are full synthetics, but it looks like the majority of high mileage oils are only partially synthetic or a synthetic blend. Anybody know why this is?
In general, folks buy high mileage oils when the vehicle ages and begins to show signs of trouble brewing.
Those folks generally have lesser incomes and are price conscious. I never heard of folks using high mileage on newish vehicles, until I came-across some here. But again - generally speaking, the average Joe/Jane does not know that high mileage oils are OK for newish vehicles.
Also, when looking at add-packs for high mileage oils recently, they look almost identical to non high mileage oils. So the difference seems to be in the base oils now. That's why I would not use a base oil that's catered to troubled engines, inside a newish vehicle.
But that's another topic (another future thread) and not to be confused with your topic here.
I know that there are some newer high mileage oils that are full synthetics, but it looks like the majority of high mileage oils are only partially synthetic or a synthetic blend. Anybody know why this is?
In general, folks buy high mileage oils when the vehicle ages and begins to show signs of trouble brewing.
Those folks generally have lesser incomes and are price conscious. I never heard of folks using high mileage on newish vehicles, until I came-across some here. But again - generally speaking, the average Joe/Jane does not know that high mileage oils are OK for newish vehicles.
Also, when looking at add-packs for high mileage oils recently, they look almost identical to non high mileage oils. So the difference seems to be in the base oils now. That's why I would not use a base oil that's catered to troubled engines, inside a newish vehicle.
But that's another topic (another future thread) and not to be confused with your topic here.
Still - what does "synthetic" even mean these days? The price of even the most basic brand name API SN motor oil isn't that much different than the motor oils marketed as "synthetic". Back in the 90s you knew that the "synthetic oil" in that bottle of Mobil 1 or Castrol Syntec that likely had a PAO-ester blended base, and the bottle might say that there might be some conventional oil in there as an additive carrier. When "semi-syn" came around it was really just some of those added to a mineral oil base.
But today? a 5 quart jug of Pennzoil yellow bottle is $17 at Walmart. Pennzoil Platinum is maybe $22. They're probably more similar to each other than 20 years ago, and the price difference shows it. But then again, fewer and fewer new vehicles are spec'ed to use the old PYB. We've got European and some other higher performance vehicles that spec 0W-20, while most cars these days sold in the US spec a 0W-20, and that basically means it's going to require a motor marketed as "synthetic" or at least "semi-synthetic".
But today? a 5 quart jug of Pennzoil yellow bottle is $17 at Walmart. Pennzoil Platinum is maybe $22. They're probably more similar to each other than 20 years ago, and the price difference shows it. But then again, fewer and fewer new vehicles are spec'ed to use the old PYB. We've got European and some other higher performance vehicles that spec 0W-20, while most cars these days sold in the US spec a 0W-20, and that basically means it's going to require a motor marketed as "synthetic" or at least "semi-synthetic".
Too many times I've seen people in oil isle thinking/talking:
- Mobil is the best one can buy!!! Then they get confused with different viscosity etc...
- synthetic oil will cause oil leaks in my 5-7-15 year old car!!!!!
- I need thicker oil!!!!!!
- I need cheapest oil for my old car!!!!!!
those are some people who would prolly cover 90+% of oil buyers.
I also agree that semi-synth is all we need and all we get anyway since there is no such thing as 100% synth oil as per container contents anyway. If marketing could convince buyer oil they get is 130% synth, they'd do that but even bubba knows what 100% means.
- Mobil is the best one can buy!!! Then they get confused with different viscosity etc...
- synthetic oil will cause oil leaks in my 5-7-15 year old car!!!!!
- I need thicker oil!!!!!!
- I need cheapest oil for my old car!!!!!!
those are some people who would prolly cover 90+% of oil buyers.
I also agree that semi-synth is all we need and all we get anyway since there is no such thing as 100% synth oil as per container contents anyway. If marketing could convince buyer oil they get is 130% synth, they'd do that but even bubba knows what 100% means.
I agree with the price point comment. Not just because many people keep older cars because they can't afford newer and want a cheaper oil cost, but because many cars that need HM oil will require top-ups between services, and nobody wants to keep pouring in oil that's more expensive.
Also, I don't think high mileage oils are necessarily good for older vehicles, if they are in good condition and running strong. HM oils are good to use when the engine shows signs of wear: smoking exhaust, excessive leaks, knocking/ticking sounds when warm, low power/compression, etc. So I won't use HM oil until there is reason to switch... and it looks like that will be a very long time.
Also, I don't think high mileage oils are necessarily good for older vehicles, if they are in good condition and running strong. HM oils are good to use when the engine shows signs of wear: smoking exhaust, excessive leaks, knocking/ticking sounds when warm, low power/compression, etc. So I won't use HM oil until there is reason to switch... and it looks like that will be a very long time.
There is no reason to even use a syn oil.
It is no better for the run of the mill car running down the road than dino oil.
Syn oil only gives you better mileage because your wallet is lighter.
The oil companies poor a lot of money into Marketing so you think its better because they can over price it and make more money on you.
When was the last you traded a vehicle in and you got more for it because you told the dealer you used syn oil in it.
Any engine will run to 500,000 miles on dino oil and its been proven.
If its cold out just use a thinner oil. It doesn't have to be syn.
Syn oil can not carry as much additives as dino oil.
It is no better for the run of the mill car running down the road than dino oil.
Syn oil only gives you better mileage because your wallet is lighter.
The oil companies poor a lot of money into Marketing so you think its better because they can over price it and make more money on you.
When was the last you traded a vehicle in and you got more for it because you told the dealer you used syn oil in it.
Any engine will run to 500,000 miles on dino oil and its been proven.
If its cold out just use a thinner oil. It doesn't have to be syn.
Syn oil can not carry as much additives as dino oil.
Originally Posted by rideahorse
There is no reason to even use a syn oil.
It is no better for the run of the mill car running down the road than dino oil.
Syn oil only gives you better mileage because your wallet is lighter.
The oil companies poor a lot of money into Marketing so you think its better because they can over price it and make more money on you.
When was the last you traded a vehicle in and you got more for it because you told the dealer you used syn oil in it.
Any engine will run to 500,000 miles on dino oil and its been proven.
If its cold out just use a thinner oil. It doesn't have to be syn.
Syn oil can not carry as much additives as dino oil.
There really isn't that much difference.
I used to be able to buy a 5 quart jug of Pennzoil yellow bottle for maybe $6 20 years ago, when something like Castrol Syntec might cost at least $20 if not more, especially if only available in quart bottles. These days the price spread is far less.
But these days a lot of manufacturers specify higher performance oils. We're getting way too hung up on marketing speak. Calling motor oil "synthetic", "conventional", or "semi-synthetic" has fairly little meaning these days outside of product differentiation.
There is no reason to even use a syn oil.
It is no better for the run of the mill car running down the road than dino oil.
Syn oil only gives you better mileage because your wallet is lighter.
The oil companies poor a lot of money into Marketing so you think its better because they can over price it and make more money on you.
When was the last you traded a vehicle in and you got more for it because you told the dealer you used syn oil in it.
Any engine will run to 500,000 miles on dino oil and its been proven.
If its cold out just use a thinner oil. It doesn't have to be syn.
Syn oil can not carry as much additives as dino oil.
There really isn't that much difference.
I used to be able to buy a 5 quart jug of Pennzoil yellow bottle for maybe $6 20 years ago, when something like Castrol Syntec might cost at least $20 if not more, especially if only available in quart bottles. These days the price spread is far less.
But these days a lot of manufacturers specify higher performance oils. We're getting way too hung up on marketing speak. Calling motor oil "synthetic", "conventional", or "semi-synthetic" has fairly little meaning these days outside of product differentiation.
The current NAPA flyer has NAPA Conventional at $12.99/5 qt jug or $2.99/1 qt bottle.
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Originally Posted by rideahorse
There is no reason to even use a syn oil.
It is no better for the run of the mill car running down the road than dino oil.
Syn oil only gives you better mileage because your wallet is lighter.
The oil companies poor a lot of money into Marketing so you think its better because they can over price it and make more money on you.
When was the last you traded a vehicle in and you got more for it because you told the dealer you used syn oil in it.
Any engine will run to 500,000 miles on dino oil and its been proven.
If its cold out just use a thinner oil. It doesn't have to be syn.
Syn oil can not carry as much additives as dino oil.
Please explain bolded text. Thanks.
Originally Posted by rideahorse
There is no reason to even use a syn oil.
It is no better for the run of the mill car running down the road than dino oil.
Syn oil only gives you better mileage because your wallet is lighter.
The oil companies poor a lot of money into Marketing so you think its better because they can over price it and make more money on you.
When was the last you traded a vehicle in and you got more for it because you told the dealer you used syn oil in it.
Any engine will run to 500,000 miles on dino oil and its been proven.
If its cold out just use a thinner oil. It doesn't have to be syn.
Syn oil can not carry as much additives as dino oil.
Please explain bolded text. Thanks.
Originally Posted by LeakySeals
.
Originally Posted by rideahorse
There is no reason to even use a syn oil.
It is no better for the run of the mill car running down the road than dino oil.
Syn oil only gives you better mileage because your wallet is lighter.
The oil companies poor a lot of money into Marketing so you think its better because they can over price it and make more money on you.
When was the last you traded a vehicle in and you got more for it because you told the dealer you used syn oil in it.
Any engine will run to 500,000 miles on dino oil and its been proven.
If its cold out just use a thinner oil. It doesn't have to be syn.
Syn oil can not carry as much additives as dino oil.
Please explain bolded text. Thanks.
There is no explanation really. I do remember back when PAO had limited ability to carry additives, which was one of the reasons why esters were almost always added. The esters were needed for additive compatibility, and the additive packages were provided in a mineral oil base, which certainly helped with compatibility.
Not to mention that common base oils (i.e. Group III) marketed as "synthetic" are inherently capable of carrying additives.
.
Originally Posted by rideahorse
There is no reason to even use a syn oil.
It is no better for the run of the mill car running down the road than dino oil.
Syn oil only gives you better mileage because your wallet is lighter.
The oil companies poor a lot of money into Marketing so you think its better because they can over price it and make more money on you.
When was the last you traded a vehicle in and you got more for it because you told the dealer you used syn oil in it.
Any engine will run to 500,000 miles on dino oil and its been proven.
If its cold out just use a thinner oil. It doesn't have to be syn.
Syn oil can not carry as much additives as dino oil.
Please explain bolded text. Thanks.
There is no explanation really. I do remember back when PAO had limited ability to carry additives, which was one of the reasons why esters were almost always added. The esters were needed for additive compatibility, and the additive packages were provided in a mineral oil base, which certainly helped with compatibility.
Not to mention that common base oils (i.e. Group III) marketed as "synthetic" are inherently capable of carrying additives.
Originally Posted by DGXR
HM oils are good to use when the engine shows signs of wear: smoking exhaust, excessive leaks, knocking/ticking sounds when warm, low power/compression, etc. So I won't use HM oil until there is reason to switch... .
Once an engine is THAT BAD - - - your choice of oil will make no difference on its performance. None.
HM oils are good to use when the engine shows signs of wear: smoking exhaust, excessive leaks, knocking/ticking sounds when warm, low power/compression, etc. So I won't use HM oil until there is reason to switch... .
Once an engine is THAT BAD - - - your choice of oil will make no difference on its performance. None.
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Originally Posted by rideahorse
There is no reason to even use a syn oil.
There are many applications that, through OEM specs, essentially necessitate a synthetic oil. The latest Dexos standards, most Euro standards...etc.
So yes, there are plenty of potential situations where a reason exists to use a synthetic lubricant.
Originally Posted by rideahorse
It is no better for the run of the mill car running down the road than dino oil.
For a car without a known propensity for sludge or deposit accumulation; for applications that do not have exotic oil requirements and are not being used in a manner where synthetic provides a benefit, you are correct.
Originally Posted by rideahorse
Syn oil only gives you better mileage because your wallet is lighter.
Yes, generally any difference is going to be so small that it will in no way offset the additional cost of the lubricant. Most people don't use synthetic for the fuel economy benefits though.
Originally Posted by rideahorse
The oil companies poor a lot of money into Marketing so you think its better because they can over price it and make more money on you.
Yes, the oil companies pour money into advertising for their products in general, synthetic, conventional, high mileage...etc. "Over priced" needs to be qualified. PAO is expensive, so is POE. Certainly both are significantly more costly than Group III and below. Certifications and approvals are also not free. So an oil with expensive base oils that has passed a myriad of OEM testing protocols and the blender had paid for the approvals should be expected to cost more than API SN 5w-30 from Dollarama.
Originally Posted by rideahorse
When was the last you traded a vehicle in and you got more for it because you told the dealer you used syn oil in it.
When was the last time you traded a vehicle and got more money for it because you used $800 dollar wax on it, put nitrogen in the tires, ran only top tier gas or ran Michelin tires? Over-the-top maintenance isn't something you'll recoup the cost of on a trade-in, regardless of where it is focused.
Originally Posted by rideahorse
Any engine will run to 500,000 miles on dino oil and its been proven.
That's ridiculous. Many engines will never make 500,000 miles period. The design life for a gasoline engine is nowhere near that long and while some designs in some usage profiles are capable of that achievement this gross generalization does no favours to that discussion.
Originally Posted by rideahorse
If its cold out just use a thinner oil. It doesn't have to be syn.
Right, use a what, 5w-20 in an application that calls for 0w-40? 5w-50? 15w-40? If you live where it gets below -30C and you want an oil that meets the cold temp performance requirements for that temperature it's going to be synthetic. All the PPD's on earth aren't going to get your 4cSt Group II to pass the CCS and MRV requirements at -35C and -40C respectively. If your application calls for an xW-40, 5w-40 is going to be synthetic.
Originally Posted by rideahorse
Syn oil can not carry as much additives as dino oil.
Which is completely irrelevant because the additives are put in a carrier for that purpose. Where the issue of solubility comes into play is in dealing with deposits. Lower group base oils are more polar and are capable of holding greater volumes of contaminants. This is why some POE can be beneficial, as it aides in providing additional solubility to a PAO formula to overcome that obstacle.
There is no reason to even use a syn oil.
There are many applications that, through OEM specs, essentially necessitate a synthetic oil. The latest Dexos standards, most Euro standards...etc.
So yes, there are plenty of potential situations where a reason exists to use a synthetic lubricant.
Originally Posted by rideahorse
It is no better for the run of the mill car running down the road than dino oil.
For a car without a known propensity for sludge or deposit accumulation; for applications that do not have exotic oil requirements and are not being used in a manner where synthetic provides a benefit, you are correct.
Originally Posted by rideahorse
Syn oil only gives you better mileage because your wallet is lighter.
Yes, generally any difference is going to be so small that it will in no way offset the additional cost of the lubricant. Most people don't use synthetic for the fuel economy benefits though.
Originally Posted by rideahorse
The oil companies poor a lot of money into Marketing so you think its better because they can over price it and make more money on you.
Yes, the oil companies pour money into advertising for their products in general, synthetic, conventional, high mileage...etc. "Over priced" needs to be qualified. PAO is expensive, so is POE. Certainly both are significantly more costly than Group III and below. Certifications and approvals are also not free. So an oil with expensive base oils that has passed a myriad of OEM testing protocols and the blender had paid for the approvals should be expected to cost more than API SN 5w-30 from Dollarama.
Originally Posted by rideahorse
When was the last you traded a vehicle in and you got more for it because you told the dealer you used syn oil in it.
When was the last time you traded a vehicle and got more money for it because you used $800 dollar wax on it, put nitrogen in the tires, ran only top tier gas or ran Michelin tires? Over-the-top maintenance isn't something you'll recoup the cost of on a trade-in, regardless of where it is focused.
Originally Posted by rideahorse
Any engine will run to 500,000 miles on dino oil and its been proven.
That's ridiculous. Many engines will never make 500,000 miles period. The design life for a gasoline engine is nowhere near that long and while some designs in some usage profiles are capable of that achievement this gross generalization does no favours to that discussion.
Originally Posted by rideahorse
If its cold out just use a thinner oil. It doesn't have to be syn.
Right, use a what, 5w-20 in an application that calls for 0w-40? 5w-50? 15w-40? If you live where it gets below -30C and you want an oil that meets the cold temp performance requirements for that temperature it's going to be synthetic. All the PPD's on earth aren't going to get your 4cSt Group II to pass the CCS and MRV requirements at -35C and -40C respectively. If your application calls for an xW-40, 5w-40 is going to be synthetic.
Originally Posted by rideahorse
Syn oil can not carry as much additives as dino oil.
Which is completely irrelevant because the additives are put in a carrier for that purpose. Where the issue of solubility comes into play is in dealing with deposits. Lower group base oils are more polar and are capable of holding greater volumes of contaminants. This is why some POE can be beneficial, as it aides in providing additional solubility to a PAO formula to overcome that obstacle.
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