Why Is Europe Using 5w-40 Oils So Much?....

moribundman · May 16, 2004

quote:

A2 is the ACEA spec for std, non-synthetic motor oil and is basically dormant. It hasn't been updated by the ACEA since 1996. A1 and A5 are the low HT/HS specs, with A5 also being an extended drain spec.

Yes, G-Man-II, I mixed up A2 with A5. Stupid number salad.

The point was the trend towards lower viscosity oils in most Euro engines.

dustyjoe1, the claim that Euro engines have looser clearances (not tolerances!) has been brought up many times before, but never confirmed. In fact, someone who built race car engines to me the bearing clearances in my '96 Audi were pretty much the same as those in a '70s Nissan. The traditiona trend to slightly thicker oils in Euro engines is based on driving conditions. But as I said, check the oil recommendations of new Euro cars in Europe, and you will see more recommndations for thinner oils than a few years ago. If you talk to European drivers, you will also find that many prefer to not go for the extra-long extened drain intervals of up to 30k km or more, but that many stick with thicker (usually A3 rated) oil and normal drain intervals of 10 - 15 km. I know this from what I read on German automotive forums and the people I've talked to.

There is nothing to the suspicion that carmakers build their engines with different clearancs for different markets. If my motor can, according to the manual, use oil weights from 5W-30 to 10W-60/20W-50, then I would have to assume that my engine has variable clearances. This is of course not the case, and the viscosity recommendation depends on temperature and type of oil. 5W-40 happens to be the best compromise for my motor, no matter if the car is driven in the US or in Europe for all year-round use.
Also, my '96 Audi manual points out in the US manual that oil requirements in Europe differ from the ones in the US due to highway speed. Audi clearly states that oil choice (in regard to approved specs) is more critical when dribving in Europe. I posted a scan of this part of my manual on this site before.

[ May 16, 2004, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: moribundman ]

FowVay · May 16, 2004

For those of you that don't go to Europe often I'd like to describe the automotive world.

There are many very small engined vehicles there that run at redline just to keep up with the flow of traffic. One liter engines can be found in many brands and 1.4 and 1.6 liter engines are far more common than any other size. In Germany the traffic lights are set up like a drag strip Christmas tree. The yellow light will light to let the drive know it's almost time to go and when the green light comes on it is wide open traffic. The tiny engines are running wide open but they're not doing much work.

It has been discussed often on this forum about actual autobahn speeds but I can tell you that I average 100 mph (160kmh) whenever the traffic permits. Naturally there is a recommended speed of 130 kmh (80 mph) in Germany but that's just a recommendation like the yellow speed limit signs that we have for curves. If you've ever rented a 1.4 liter VW Golf then you know how hard that tiny engine is running at 100 mph.

Of the few American cars that I see in Germany, the ones that get run hard also smoke severely when exiting the motorways. I have no idea what oils get run in the cars but you see Corvettes and the occasional Firebird/Camaro making a 150 mph run but they're not quite so impressive when there's a Volkswagen PD TDI diesel not far off their tails.

There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that the average oil temperature in Germany is much higher than the average oil temperature in the USA even if the people aren't running at top speed all the time. They don't normally drive V-8 powered cars or large displacement V-6 engines. They're taxed on engine displacement or emissions production and are therefore encouraged to buy small and efficient engines.

I believe that the oil temperatures and small displacement engines is the reason that most Euro companies recommend the heavier oils. If you just putt up the interstate at 70 mph at 2500 RPM all day long then 5w-30 will probably serve your Ferrari 550 Barchetta as well as the Shell 10w-60. But when you get a wild hair to fantasize that you're at Hockenheim then you might want to do a oil change first.

Ghillie · May 16, 2004

Well: I guess that helps explain most of the reasoning.

Thanks.

moribundman · May 16, 2004

quote:

Of the few American cars that I see in Germany, the ones that get run hard also smoke severely when exiting the motorways.

The Cameros that I used to chase on the Autobahn had a tendency to overheat after 20 minutes of high speed driving. More than once I was told this was due to lack of an oil cooler.

By the way, the two last rentals I drove over there smoked horribly (trail of blue smoke) when I got of the Autobahn. One was a VW Polo with only 10k km on the engine, the other one was a Fiat Brava with around 15 k km , if I remember correctly.

I used to drive a Scirocco Mark I (1.6 l, 85 hp, top speed around 110 mph) and Mark II (1.8 l, 95 hp, top speed ca 120 mph) over there years ago. Both of them needed new valve stem seals every 80 km, otherwise the constant high speed driving and my driving style didn't seem to harm their engines. On the highway, I see usually not more than 225 degr F in the US, even at over 100 degree ambient. On the Autobahn I've seen an oil temperature of 150 degree C after half an hour of red-lining it. Oil temps were not higher on the Autobahn than under adverse conditions in the US.

JohnBrowning · May 16, 2004

When I was little an old Army mechanic told my Dad " If you want to run with Germans on the Autobahn best to buy your oil on the local Economy not at the PX!" That is exactly what my Dad did too. We never had any oil burning or overheating issues at all. My Dad ran Fords and TOyotas and never had an issue. Dad always changed the oil at 1800 miles. Running a 2.4Liter Toyota 4Runner at 110MPH for an hour or more is hard on oil!

dustyjoe1 · May 16, 2004

Of interest-maybe. I have a honda, so I looked on the italian honda site. The honda IMA (Italian civic) gets, on average, 20.4 km/l. If my conversion is correct that translates to an average fuel economy of 48 mpg. My US trim honda civic averages 35 mpg. Me thinks that maybe the engines are not built the same for US and Europe. different engines - different oils. Generally I think Euro spec cars have higher compression and higer performance. As I understand it Higher performance engines tend to have looser tolerences. Wouldn't that explain Higher viscosity oils being specified for Euro versions?? So you can show me all the non-us manuals you care to, but we are comparing apples and oranges. Euro cars are a completely different animal. Just my opinion. Sorry about the long post, but somebody had to say it.

FowVay · May 16, 2004

I know this is off topic but I thought I'd mention it. I was hangin out at a SEAT dealership (VW brand) two summers ago and poking around in their parts department. I was amazed at the row of brake rotors they had sitting on the shelves. They must eat those things at 50,000 KM intervals.

I too have rented some cars that have been run hard and it showed. I had a Fiat Stilo recently that felt like the axles were out of balance at low speeds. Once up to cruise it ran very nicely.

Another thing of interest is that in Germany the heavy duty trucks are required to be off of the highways on Sunday unless they're hauling something of a time sensitive nature in which a special permit is required. This frees up the highways and makes high speed travel quite nice.

edited for spelling

[ May 17, 2004, 05:03 AM: Message edited by: FowVay ]

moribundman · May 16, 2004

Also quite off-topic, but worth mentioning: Often people who complain about the low speed limits in the US don't consider that high speed roads like the Autobahn and German Federal Highways (speed limit up to 120 km/h) have much wider lanes than US highways. I'm guessing now, but I'd say an Autobahn lane is probably almost twice as wide as a US freeway lane.

kev99sl · May 16, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by FowVay:
For those of you that don't go to Europe often I'd like to describe the automotive world.

There are many very small engined vehicles there that run at redline just to keep up with the flow of traffic. One liter engines can be found in many brands and 1.4 and 1.6 liter engines are far more common than any other size. In Germany the traffic lights are set up like a drag strip Christmas tree. The yellow light will light to let the drive know it's almost time to go and when the green light comes on it is wide open traffic. The tiny engines are running wide open but they're not doing much work.

It has been discussed often on this forum about actual autobahn speeds but I can tell you that I average 100 mph (160kmh) whenever the traffic permits. Naturally there is a recommended speed of 130 kmh (80 mph) in Germany but that's just a recommendation like the yellow speed limit signs that we have for curves. If you've ever rented a 1.4 liter VW Golf then you know how hard that tiny engine is running at 100 mph.

Of the few American cars that I see in Germany, the ones that get run hard also smoke severely when exiting the motorways. I have no idea what oils get run in the cars but you see Corvettes and the occasional Firebird/Camaro making a 150 mph run but they're not quite so impressive when there's a Volkswagen PD TDI diesel not far off their tails.

There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that the average oil temperature in Germany is much higher than the average oil temperature in the USA even if the people aren't running at top speed all the time. They don't normally drive V-8 powered cars or large displacement V-6 engines. They're taxed on engine displacement or emissions production and are therefore encouraged to buy small and efficient engines.

I believe that the oil temperatures and small displacement engines is the reason that most Euro companies recommend the heavier oils. If you just putt up the interstate at 70 mph at 2500 RPM all day long then 5w-30 will probably serve your Ferrari 550 Barchetta as well as the Shell 10w-60. But when you get a wild hair to fantasize that you're at Hockenheim then you might want to do a oil change first.

I love the way "Europe" in these posts almost always gets translated into "the Autobahn." Listen: most cars in Europe are not driven as though they are on the Autobahn. In fact, if I had to guess, I'd say most cars in Europe aren't even routinely driven on the expressway. Go to England and I guarantee you won't find most cars traveling an average of 100 MPH. Besides which, even in those extreme cases, for every car that travels at those speeds, there are probably five that run more US-like speeds.

And besides even that, do those cars that run that fast get started in the driveway and immediately accelerate to 100+ MPH? No. They start just like our cars, battle through traffic just like us to get to the expressway, and then -- maybe -- see speeds like those you're describing. What happens to those poor engines while those cars are only traveling 35 MPH? The simple fact is, if speed limits here in the U.S. suddenly jumped to 125 MPH, you can bet that we wouldn't all start to see 40 or 50 weight oils recommended here. If everyone in Europe suddenly decided to never exceed 70 MPH, you can bet that you wouldn't see 20 and 30 weight oils popping up in their owner's manual. Why? Because the average speed driven has absolutely nothing to do with the specific oil recommendations made by manufacturers for identical engines in varying countries. It's culture, marketing, politics, and economy. Period.

Quattro Pete · May 16, 2004

Another off-topic...

All this talk of the autobahn really makes me wanna take a trip to Germany so that my A4 can stretch its legs.

It sure beats the **** out of the pothole slalom I have to go through at 30mph on the way to work every day.

FowVay · May 16, 2004

I still say it's average oil temperatures that dictate viscosities there. As mentioned, the city driving is very aggressive and high RPM's are common. Autobahn driving is in no way like driving on a race track but it is nice to be able to take your vehicle up to any speed that YOU PERSONALLY feel comfortable going. Most people don't feel comfortable cruising at 200 kmh but when the crazy American touristers go there it gets entertaining. Many Americans can't even read or understand the road signs. I have honestly seen cars driven on the foot paths because the vehicle operator couldn't read the signs.

In a previous post it was mentioned that the autobahn is wider than a interstate lane. This isn't the case. The autobahn is very similar in construction and dimension to a U.S. interstate. Of note though is that the on-ramps and off-ramps are quite different. There are no 1/4 mile long acceleration lanes and when you choose to exit you have these little roadside markers that start at the 300 meter mark and count down at 100 meter increments until you finally hit a 90º exit ramp. If you haven't slowed yourself in those 300 meters then you're SOL. I guess this accounts for the brake rotors at the dealership.

Ohhh, another point of interest is that it's illegal to occupy the emergency lane on the autobahn due to personal irresponsibility such as running out of fuel. A car sitting on the side of a high speed road is a life threatening situation which is frowned upon. I have never seen a tractor trailer retread cap occupying a autobahn lane and I was completely amazed to see a lane closed down while workers swept the dirt from the shoulder.

Yes, maybe culture does play a big role in automotive maintenance and practices.

kev99sl · May 16, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by FowVay:
I still say it's average oil temperatures that dictate viscosities there. As mentioned, the city driving is very aggressive and high RPM's are common. Autobahn driving is in no way like driving on a race track but it is nice to be able to take your vehicle up to any speed that YOU PERSONALLY feel comfortable going. Most people don't feel comfortable cruising at 200 kmh but when the crazy American touristers go there it gets entertaining. Many Americans can't even read or understand the road signs. I have honestly seen cars driven on the foot paths because the vehicle operator couldn't read the signs.

In a previous post it was mentioned that the autobahn is wider than a interstate lane. This isn't the case. The autobahn is very similar in construction and dimension to a U.S. interstate. Of note though is that the on-ramps and off-ramps are quite different. There are no 1/4 mile long acceleration lanes and when you choose to exit you have these little roadside markers that start at the 300 meter mark and count down at 100 meter increments until you finally hit a 90º exit ramp. If you haven't slowed yourself in those 300 meters then you're SOL. I guess this accounts for the brake rotors at the dealership.

Ohhh, another point of interest is that it's illegal to occupy the emergency lane on the autobahn due to personal irresponsibility such as running out of fuel. A car sitting on the side of a high speed road is a life threatening situation which is frowned upon. I have never seen a tractor trailer retread cap occupying a autobahn lane and I was completely amazed to see a lane closed down while workers swept the dirt from the shoulder.

Yes, maybe culture does play a big role in automotive maintenance and practices.

I reiterate: "I love the way 'Europe' in these posts almost always gets translated into 'the Autobahn.'"

Europe is much bigger than the Autobahn. Actually, it's a lot bigger than Germany.

Dr. T · May 16, 2004

I'm not so sure...

You drive 120mph for hours with a dino 5-20 and when you need a new engine after 50k, tell us it's not the speed driven.

kev99sl · May 16, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by Dr. T:
I'm not so sure...

You drive 120mph for hours with a dino 5-20 and when you need a new engine after 50k, tell us it's not the speed driven.

If you'll notice, I'm not advocating that they use thin oils in Europe. I'm adovcating that we use thicker oils here.

Cars in Europe that see 120 MPH also see 30 MPH, no? As I stated in an earlier thread, not all cars will see 100+ MPH. But all cars will see -100 MPH, I don't care what continent they're in. Obviously, those thicker oils are deemed acceptable at lower speeds and lower temps, so why wouldn't they be acceptable here?

Dr. T · May 16, 2004

What I've noticed over the past few years is yes, a switch to thinner viscosities in an effort to increase engine performance. However, not being in a CAFE environment, it seems like the approach is still as follows:

1. Thinner oils...OK, as long as they're A3 rated. eg. 0-30, 0-40, etc.. Especially for high-end cars such as M-B, Porsche, BMW, etc.

2. Thicker as needed for engine protection eg. BMW M-3 (10-60), AMG (5-50), Ferrari Enzo (10-60)

3. Go to A1 oils (HT/HS <3.5) for 'disposable' cars such as VW Polo's, etc..

moribundman · May 17, 2004

quote:

I love the way "Europe" in these posts almost always gets translated into "the Autobahn." Listen: most cars in Europe are not driven as though they are on the Autobahn.

"Listen," if I mention Germany and the Autobahn I do that because that's where I lived for years. I'm not going to talk about England, France, or Greece or whatever, because even though I have been there, I haven't lived there long enough to make a decent judgement on driving conditions and driving habits. You can bet your keister I've been driving routinely 120 mph on the Autobahn, and I intend to do so again later this year. I talk about what I know, unlike some who go mostly by assumption. That's why I will talk about the Autobahn, and not about any motorway in the UK.

quote:

If everyone in Europe suddenly decided to never exceed 70 MPH, you can bet that you wouldn't see 20 and 30 weight oils popping up in their owner's manual.

XW-30 oils are very popular there. I used an XW-30 oil 15 years ago in Europe.

quote:

Why? Because the average speed driven has absolutely nothing to do with the specific oil recommendations made by manufacturers for identical engines in varying countries. It's culture, marketing, politics, and economy. Period.

My US manual just says so out of spite. "Right. Period."

Oil choice is critical when driving at high speeds for prolonged time. Fact is, people DO drive fast on the Autobahn, which is pretty much the last place where there is no speed limit. Just ask the Dutch, who are notorious for tearing up the Autobahn, once they've been let loose.

kev99sl · May 17, 2004

quote:

"Listen," if I mention Germany and the Autobahn I do that because that's where I lived for years. I'm not going to talk about England, France, or Greece or whatever, because even though I have been there, I haven't lived there long enough to make a decent judgement on driving conditions and driving habits. You can bet your keister I've been driving routinely 120 mph on the Autobahn, and I intend to do so again later this year. I talk about what I know, unlike some who go mostly by assumption. That's why I will talk about the Autobahn, and not about any motorway in the UK.

Gee, my post wasn't addressed at you, but if you choose to take it personally ... well, I can't help that.

Again, I'm not arguing that vehicles on the Autobahn don't routinely drive 120+ MPH. (Yeah, I've been there too -- granted, not "for years.") Do vehicles in Germany ever operate at speeds slower than 120 MPH? OK ... then why is it that thicker oils used over there at lower speeds are OK, but we "need" thinner oils here? Do vehicles in Europe generally, usually, most of the time, operate at 100+ MPH? (Downtown Berlin, downtown London, downtown Madrid ... don't think 100+ MPH is the norm in any of those places.) And that's just Germany. Now let's talk about Britain, France, Spain ....

But besides all that, I'm not even arguing that vehicles that are driven 100+ MPH shouldn't get a thicker oil for better protection. My argument isn't, for that matter, that thinner oils aren't adequate for cars that will never see 100+ driving as long as they're on the road. My argument is that using "Europe-thick" oils in U.S. cars will (1) not harm anything, and (2) may provide better long-term wear protection.

FowVay · May 17, 2004

If your post was addressed to me then let me assure you that you've already shown to me your knowledge on the subject.

brianl703 · May 17, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by moribundman:
I'm guessing now, but I'd say an Autobahn lane is probably almost twice as wide as a US freeway lane.

It is my understanding that the median on the Autobahn isn't nearly as wide as is typical for a US interstate.

brianl703 · May 17, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by FowVay:
There are no 1/4 mile long acceleration lanes

Sounds like I70 in PA. No merge area, only a yield sign for most on-ramps.

Why Is Europe Using 5w-40 Oils So Much?....

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