Even at 20K miles, you will be surprised at just how filthy the magnetic drain plug on a Honda gets. A Magnefine filter is a VERY wise idea considering it is so cheap and easy to install.
Why is a Power Flush a no-no for Honda Trannys?
- Thread starter Blue_Goose
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I am a longtime lurker here and have a 2004 Saturn VUE with a Honda engine and trans. with 71,000 miles. After much research and recommendation on Amsoil (which is recommended for Z1 applications) I did a drain and refill with it because I was having a rpm fluctuation while driving at a steady speed.
It took about 5 minutes to drain out 3.5 quarts, I refilled with Amsoil and drove around for a while then came back and took out 3 more quarts and refilled again with Amsoil. All I can say is WOW, what a difference... Not more dragging of gears, slightly firmer shifts and absolutely zero rpm fluctuation while at a steady speed in drive. I have put on about 250 miles so far and its great!
It took about 5 minutes to drain out 3.5 quarts, I refilled with Amsoil and drove around for a while then came back and took out 3 more quarts and refilled again with Amsoil. All I can say is WOW, what a difference... Not more dragging of gears, slightly firmer shifts and absolutely zero rpm fluctuation while at a steady speed in drive. I have put on about 250 miles so far and its great!
I worked at a Honda dealer for some time and we never ran into any problems with flusing transmissions. We used the BG trans packages with cleaner additive and synthetic fluid. The machines use the pump pressure to cycle in the new fluids so your not going to have a ton of pressure built up, although some machines do have an electical pump on them which can be set to high. Most dealers will use the machines that BG, Wynn, or JB supplies and i know that all three of those use line pressure to do the exchange of fluid. If it makes you feel better i recently flushed a 255k mile camry for a coworker and all is well after a few thousand miles.
Sigh, here's whats up with flushes:
Most shops won't do them because a lot of people that want them done have high mileage vehicles that have some sort of transmission issue. They ignore the trans fluid for most of the life of the car, but as soon as the tranny starts to slip or shift hard, they think a flush will fix the problem. So they bring it to a shop and have it flushed and it just makes it worse. Why? Because all of the gunk and crud in the trans fluid is gone, and it slips even worse. All of the gunk and crud was what was keeping it shifting somewhat decently in the first place, keeping the clutches from slipping, similar to using Type F fluid to make a firmer shift. But then with clean fluid it slips worse, and of course it's all the shops fault that changed the fluid. What a headache.
Honda realizes this. FLUSHES should never be needed if the tranny was properly maintained in the first place. A drain and fill is perfectly sufficient if done every 30K or so. It's the customers with the broken trannys that think a flush will magically fix it that cause Honda to recommend not to flush it. It should never be necessary. A flush will NOT fix a slipping, hard shift, etc tranny.
Tranny flushes are garbage. Change the fluid every 30K and quit worrying about it. Putting all fresh fluid in isn't going to do you any good when the tranny is garbage in the first place.
Most shops won't do them because a lot of people that want them done have high mileage vehicles that have some sort of transmission issue. They ignore the trans fluid for most of the life of the car, but as soon as the tranny starts to slip or shift hard, they think a flush will fix the problem. So they bring it to a shop and have it flushed and it just makes it worse. Why? Because all of the gunk and crud in the trans fluid is gone, and it slips even worse. All of the gunk and crud was what was keeping it shifting somewhat decently in the first place, keeping the clutches from slipping, similar to using Type F fluid to make a firmer shift. But then with clean fluid it slips worse, and of course it's all the shops fault that changed the fluid. What a headache.
Honda realizes this. FLUSHES should never be needed if the tranny was properly maintained in the first place. A drain and fill is perfectly sufficient if done every 30K or so. It's the customers with the broken trannys that think a flush will magically fix it that cause Honda to recommend not to flush it. It should never be necessary. A flush will NOT fix a slipping, hard shift, etc tranny.
Tranny flushes are garbage. Change the fluid every 30K and quit worrying about it. Putting all fresh fluid in isn't going to do you any good when the tranny is garbage in the first place.
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Tranny flushes are just a way for shops to bilk you out of your money. Good trannys don't need to be pampered anyway. Poor engineering is more to blame for failures than old fluid. And flushing the fluid isn't going to help make a poorly engineered tranny last longer. TH350 trannys lasted forever, as long as they didn't leak all of the fluid out. Even at that, sometimes they just kept going. Blah, 5 spd automatics suck. Time to get back to good ol 3 spd trannys. Try to tell that to Lexus, with their new 8 spd auto tranny.
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I don't the tranny is junk...It is hard to make the engine chug on demand.....it shifts smooth 99% of the time...the fluid does need to be changed and Saturn recommends doing it at 100k...114k on the clock now (I looked today) I think a couple of drains and fills at the dealer should help a bit?
I am a little leery of the flush given the higher miles
Goose
I am a little leery of the flush given the higher miles
Goose
I have not heard of any factual information saying a "power" tranny flush is damaging to a honda tranny. I think the honda dealer down the street from my shop uses a tranny flusher.
The power flush is NOT a "wallet flush." You can literally see the difference in fluid colour in an inpection window of the flushing machine (my has one anyways). If you are the type of person that does a drain and fill frequently that is also a good thing to do. However the power flush does get majority of the old fluid. In a relatively new honda tranny it is important to use the OE stuff. On older 90's the manuals do not indicate the use of OE stuff. Newer hondas will chatter in driveability.
I dont push tranny flushes to my customers but if its an badly maintained vehicle (usually cheap idiots/some unaware) the power flush is the best solution to get the "black" fluid back to red.
The power flush is NOT a "wallet flush." You can literally see the difference in fluid colour in an inpection window of the flushing machine (my has one anyways). If you are the type of person that does a drain and fill frequently that is also a good thing to do. However the power flush does get majority of the old fluid. In a relatively new honda tranny it is important to use the OE stuff. On older 90's the manuals do not indicate the use of OE stuff. Newer hondas will chatter in driveability.
I dont push tranny flushes to my customers but if its an badly maintained vehicle (usually cheap idiots/some unaware) the power flush is the best solution to get the "black" fluid back to red.
Originally Posted By: alanu
I have not heard of any factual information saying a "power" tranny flush is damaging to a honda tranny. I think the honda dealer down the street from my shop uses a tranny flusher.
The power flush is NOT a "wallet flush." You can literally see the difference in fluid colour in an inpection window of the flushing machine (my has one anyways). If you are the type of person that does a drain and fill frequently that is also a good thing to do. However the power flush does get majority of the old fluid. In a relatively new honda tranny it is important to use the OE stuff. On older 90's the manuals do not indicate the use of OE stuff. Newer hondas will chatter in driveability.
I dont push tranny flushes to my customers but if its an badly maintained vehicle (usually cheap idiots/some unaware) the power flush is the best solution to get the "black" fluid back to red.
However when you flush a Honda transmission, you are not given the opportunity to remove the magnetic drain plug and wipe off the sludge. I'm sure that you have seen how much sludge collects on one of these drain plugs, especially at the first fluid change.
Two other things. Many of the Honda V6 transmissions that I know of will turn the fluid brown well before 30,000 miles, so I'm not sure what you consider as neglected. Also some of the newest Honda automatics do not have cooler lines for you to connect to a flush machine. The 2004+ Acura TL comes to mind.
I have not heard of any factual information saying a "power" tranny flush is damaging to a honda tranny. I think the honda dealer down the street from my shop uses a tranny flusher.
The power flush is NOT a "wallet flush." You can literally see the difference in fluid colour in an inpection window of the flushing machine (my has one anyways). If you are the type of person that does a drain and fill frequently that is also a good thing to do. However the power flush does get majority of the old fluid. In a relatively new honda tranny it is important to use the OE stuff. On older 90's the manuals do not indicate the use of OE stuff. Newer hondas will chatter in driveability.
I dont push tranny flushes to my customers but if its an badly maintained vehicle (usually cheap idiots/some unaware) the power flush is the best solution to get the "black" fluid back to red.
However when you flush a Honda transmission, you are not given the opportunity to remove the magnetic drain plug and wipe off the sludge. I'm sure that you have seen how much sludge collects on one of these drain plugs, especially at the first fluid change.
Two other things. Many of the Honda V6 transmissions that I know of will turn the fluid brown well before 30,000 miles, so I'm not sure what you consider as neglected. Also some of the newest Honda automatics do not have cooler lines for you to connect to a flush machine. The 2004+ Acura TL comes to mind.
The new acura TL's are blowing up trannys like theres no tomorrow.
the sludge/friction pack material on the magnetic drain plug is not gonna cause any failures. Alot of failures is due to cracking drums internally in the auto trans. NO fluid in the world will prevent failures like that.
Infact just this year I replaced a 1st/2nd gear drum in an auto 97 civic IN CAR. The drums crack and bleed pressue so the friction packs have no pressure to apply. The trans slips when this happens (gear is dependant on what drum cracks)
the sludge/friction pack material on the magnetic drain plug is not gonna cause any failures. Alot of failures is due to cracking drums internally in the auto trans. NO fluid in the world will prevent failures like that.
Infact just this year I replaced a 1st/2nd gear drum in an auto 97 civic IN CAR. The drums crack and bleed pressue so the friction packs have no pressure to apply. The trans slips when this happens (gear is dependant on what drum cracks)
Originally Posted By: alanu
The new acura TL's are blowing up trannys like theres no tomorrow.
What year Acura TLs?
I moderate an Acura TL forum and most of the failures that we are seeing are the 99-03 models. We've had a very small handful of problems in the 04-05 models (in the form of shudder or whine) but generally the 2004+ TLs do not have any widespread transmission problems.
The new acura TL's are blowing up trannys like theres no tomorrow.
What year Acura TLs?
I moderate an Acura TL forum and most of the failures that we are seeing are the 99-03 models. We've had a very small handful of problems in the 04-05 models (in the form of shudder or whine) but generally the 2004+ TLs do not have any widespread transmission problems.
Critic,
I cant recall but I thought it was the newer body styles too. I was talking to a guy that worked at the honda parts warehouse. They have pallats and pallats of new trannies waiting for TL's installation!!!
I cant recall but I thought it was the newer body styles too. I was talking to a guy that worked at the honda parts warehouse. They have pallats and pallats of new trannies waiting for TL's installation!!!
Yep, thats just the 99-03 models. Very very few tranny problems with 04+ models.
So Alanu...you would have no issues with doing a powerflush on a 2004 Saturn Vue with a Honda 3.5/tranny with 114K on it? Last thing I want to do is smoke it
Goose
Goose
Originally Posted By: Blue_Goose
So Alanu...you would have no issues with doing a powerflush on a 2004 Saturn Vue with a Honda 3.5/tranny with 114K on it? Last thing I want to do is smoke it
Goose
Any updates Mr. Goose?
So Alanu...you would have no issues with doing a powerflush on a 2004 Saturn Vue with a Honda 3.5/tranny with 114K on it? Last thing I want to do is smoke it
Goose
Any updates Mr. Goose?
I would have no hesitation to powerflush a honda. Even using a power flush system will get some sort of mixing of old fluid to new. However if you flush it with more fluid than the rated capacity you'll get majority of the fluid cleaned.
So in other words if a tranny takes 7 liters of ATF (Z1 in your case) I'd use at least 10L to overcome "mixing". The window of my machine will indicate what is coming out of the "exit" hose.
http://video.aol.com/video-detail/wynns-transmission-flush-service/3614505803
Thats the machine i use. You can power flush the trans then start doing the drain/fill method frequently so you can try to maintain a nice red fluid.
My wifes 2001 Honda CRV only has 45,000kms on it. I flushed it 1yr ago with Z1 fluid. I'm not gonna break a sweat. 8L made the fluid nice and red.
So in other words if a tranny takes 7 liters of ATF (Z1 in your case) I'd use at least 10L to overcome "mixing". The window of my machine will indicate what is coming out of the "exit" hose.
http://video.aol.com/video-detail/wynns-transmission-flush-service/3614505803
Thats the machine i use. You can power flush the trans then start doing the drain/fill method frequently so you can try to maintain a nice red fluid.
My wifes 2001 Honda CRV only has 45,000kms on it. I flushed it 1yr ago with Z1 fluid. I'm not gonna break a sweat. 8L made the fluid nice and red.
Debating whether to drop the 159 for the powerflush or 69 for the drain and fill
Goose
Goose
If you share none of Honda's concerns listed on page 4, by all means, spend the $160.
http://www.in.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SN/A060200.PDF
http://www.in.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SN/A060200.PDF
Originally Posted By: Blue_Goose
Debating whether to drop the 159 for the powerflush or 69 for the drain and fill
Goose
Do the drain refill. I do my kids CRV every 15k and it's a no-brainer. If you are concerned do the drain re-fill then again in 5000 miles. Still cheaper.
Debating whether to drop the 159 for the powerflush or 69 for the drain and fill
Goose
Do the drain refill. I do my kids CRV every 15k and it's a no-brainer. If you are concerned do the drain re-fill then again in 5000 miles. Still cheaper.
ccs,
I had seen that issue of Service News before, but they don't really give a good reason to not do a tranny flush as long as solvents aren't used. Honda doesn't think they improve anything but they also say that the tranny is designed for thousands of miles of trouble-free service. Too bad all of them weren't designed for tens of thousands of trouble free miles.
Thanks for posting it though.
I had seen that issue of Service News before, but they don't really give a good reason to not do a tranny flush as long as solvents aren't used. Honda doesn't think they improve anything but they also say that the tranny is designed for thousands of miles of trouble-free service. Too bad all of them weren't designed for tens of thousands of trouble free miles.
Thanks for posting it though.
Thanks for that post on flushes..you know I found the darn dipstick after searching for like an hour for it...the fluid believe or not is not that bad...sort of a brown color but does not smell burnt..actually what should it smell like? I blotted it on a napkin and it did not look horrible.
If it was totally cooked would I know it just by smell? What would it smell like?
I'm leaning towards a drain and refill and another one in a few months. Most of the miles on this Vue are all highway..only since October has it be subjected to stop and go
Comments?
Goose
If it was totally cooked would I know it just by smell? What would it smell like?
I'm leaning towards a drain and refill and another one in a few months. Most of the miles on this Vue are all highway..only since October has it be subjected to stop and go
Comments?
Goose
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