Why haven’t we seen many diesel PHEVs?

[y_p_w]

Just on memory, I think that's an MP-15. I only knew them as switching units, but they were on their way out when I started. I haven't seen any in operation where I have worked, but I dealt with some while they were being decommissioned and sold to industries that needed more power than a standard car mover.

The roster here says that Sacramento Southern 2030 was a 1951 EMD SW8 switcher that was the former US Army 2030. I'm not sure why they used it to pull passengers other than that's what they had available. Just 800 HP and I remember that train might have reached a top speed of maybe 20 MPH.



https://www.californiarailroad.museum/assets/carousels/CSRM-Public-Roster-7-19-2016.pdf

Interesting what they did with these. The US Army used a bunch of these during the Korean War and gave several to South Korea. This also shows one that looks like it was transferred to the USAF to move Titan rockets in Florida.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_SW8

 

[Cujet]

Fuel is still purchased by unit volume, where diesel typically has higher BTUs per gallon/liter.

That's true, even for airplanes. We purchase by the gallon, non pilots should know that we fly by weight.

Which brings up the point, that the recent trend is to pay by energy content. By gal, gas is often cheaper than diesel. By about the difference in BTU per gal. The traditional cheap and easy to make diesel fuel/heating oil seems to be a thing of the past. Only now and then, do I find diesel cheaper than gas.

 

[y_p_w]

That's true, even for airplanes. We purchase by the gallon, non pilots should know that we fly by weight.

Which brings up the point, that the recent trend is to pay by energy content. By gal, gas is often cheaper than diesel. By about the difference in BTU per gal. The traditional cheap and easy to make diesel fuel/heating oil seems to be a thing of the past. Only now and then, do I find diesel cheaper than gas.

Isn’t off-road diesel still available?

 

[Torrid]

Isn’t off-road diesel still available?

I don't know how easy it is to get though. I think they've really tightened up its usage.

 

[Audiman]

Land Rover made a Range Rover and Sport with a diesel hybrid, came out in 2014 I think.

https://www.greencarguide.co.uk/car...ts/range-rover-sport-hybrid-green-car-review/

 

[dumkid]

An SUV that gets 44 mpg*? That's pretty cool right there.

I know it's probably imperial mpg instead of US mpg

 

[Torrid]

An SUV that gets 44 mpg*? That's pretty cool right there.

I know it's probably imperial mpg instead of US mpg

Imperial makes the numbers look big. I always have to remember that if I'm watching car reviews from there. 44 mpg imperial is still 36 mpg US. That's not bad at all.

 

[bigjl]

Land Rover made a Range Rover and Sport with a diesel hybrid, came out in 2014 I think.

https://www.greencarguide.co.uk/car...ts/range-rover-sport-hybrid-green-car-review/

That was more of a development vehicle

They didn’t make many and it wasn’t a PHEV it was a self charging hybrid

 

[bigjl]

An SUV that gets 44 mpg*? That's pretty cool right there.

I know it's probably imperial mpg instead of US mpg

To be honest it wasn’t as economical as 44mpg but better than a non hybrid 3.0 TDV6

The PHEV Range Rover would be much better if they had used the 3.0TDV6 instead of the 2.0 petrol engine IMHO

I suspect they went petrol because it would be more accepted in the USA and Canada so why develop a diesel and a petrol

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

So help me some with the EV side of the math… what kW/kVA do the 800V chargers charge at?

Because 35HP is 26kW… so what size generator would this support? 80% conversion says ~20kW at this level. This makes a roughly 25A current available at 800V charging.

This is would seem to make financial and logistical sense- if there were 1 small motor and 1 big motor set, when battery is 100% (or not in “power save” mode), use both motors when requested full acceleration, big motor for “regular” acceleration, and small motor (~20kW or less) for town or highway cruising that needs low power.

This means when diesel kicks on, you can either: hit the main battery with a 25A charge and continue driving normally; drive the smaller motor directly from the diesel genset literally until you run out of diesel or stick the car on a wall charger; or, send partial charge to battery pack while supplying “limp home” power to small electric motor.

There are a handful of ~35HP diesels that have all the new emissions stuff. Take that 3-cyl and go Jay Leno ShoGun Fiesta on it…

 

[PandaBear]

So help me some with the EV side of the math… what kW/kVA do the 800V chargers charge at?

Because 35HP is 26kW… so what size generator would this support? 80% conversion says ~20kW at this level. This makes a roughly 25A current available at 800V charging.

This is would seem to make financial and logistical sense- if there were 1 small motor and 1 big motor set, when battery is 100% (or not in “power save” mode), use both motors when requested full acceleration, big motor for “regular” acceleration, and small motor (~20kW or less) for town or highway cruising that needs low power.

This means when diesel kicks on, you can either: hit the main battery with a 25A charge and continue driving normally; drive the smaller motor directly from the diesel genset literally until you run out of diesel or stick the car on a wall charger; or, send partial charge to battery pack while supplying “limp home” power to small electric motor.

There are a handful of ~35HP diesels that have all the new emissions stuff. Take that 3-cyl and go Jay Leno ShoGun Fiesta on it…

Are you talking about a specific car? or a theoretical setup to use those 35hp diesel engine to build a diesel hybrid?

 

[Audiman]

That was more of a development vehicle

They didn’t make many and it wasn’t a PHEV it was a self charging hybrid

They sold as many as were ordered, LR builds to order unlike most other manufacturers.

 

[bigjl]

They sold as many as were ordered, LR builds to order unlike most other manufacturers.

So nearly none where ordered then.

If people don’t ask they don’t get.

I never saw any apart from the ones built for the long distance overland trip done by one of the magazines in the UK back in 2013 when they drove the prototypes along the Silk Road

 

[ZZman]

I thought this for a long time. Small engine turning a generator to just charge battery for more range. Diesel with it's torque would turn generator easier. Maybe incorporate a large flywheel as well.

 

[Audiman]

double post

 

[Audiman]

So nearly none where ordered then.

If people don’t ask they don’t get.

I never saw any apart from the ones built for the long distance overland trip done by one of the magazines in the UK back in 2013 when they drove the prototypes along the Silk Road

I’m pretty sure all the main dealers had one as a demonstrator. I think at that point in time though nobody really wanted to pay the higher cost for one.

 

[UG_Passat]

Nope, I’m talking full EV with battery, plus the diesel generator. Figure a Tesla Model S with a diesel generator under the bonnet.

a PHEV is meant for low emissions, while increasing range.
a diesel is not low emissions, so putting the 2 together doesn't equal low emissions.

Diesels usually have the benefit of a large gap of thermal efficiency over a gasoline engine. But the Toyota A25A engine gets 40% (-FKS) and 41% (FXS) thermal efficiency, so Toyota has closed the gap to narrow margins.

 

[PandaBear]

I thought this for a long time. Small engine turning a generator to just charge battery for more range. Diesel with it's torque would turn generator easier. Maybe incorporate a large flywheel as well.

If diesel is there to just turn the generator and you already have a small battery to buffer the flow in either direction (regen and driving), there really isn't any point in putting in a flywheel.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

View attachment 176025

a PHEV is meant for low emissions, while increasing range.
a diesel is not low emissions, so putting the 2 together doesn't equal low emissions.

Diesels usually have the benefit of a large gap of thermal efficiency over a gasoline engine. But the Toyota A25A engine gets 40% (-FKS) and 41% (FXS) thermal efficiency, so Toyota has closed the gap to narrow margins.

Diesel with the correct combustion chamber, fueling profile and temperature management, in a non-HD/OTR application, certainly meets low emissions, or could.

 

[weaponoffreedom]

Reality is that people’s perceived power requirements are destroying the environment in a variety of ways including more tire particles, more rare earths in oversized motors and worse efficiency.

Agreed.

There is no need for 1000hp DD in a diesel pickup.

I would add that power level could be easily decreased if traction controls were decreased also. Perception of power is killed when there is terrible systems that lag performance. 300HP is plenty for ANY car of truck to drive and work.

It seems that the ''powers that be'' in design of these things need to back to school. Why can't I buy a pickup truck with 5.11 gears anymore? Becuase we have to fly on the highway at 90 pulling a trailer=dumb.