Why bother with additives - its all just mineral oil

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Patman

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Fuel cleaners with PEA are very effective, so as long as people make sure that ingredient is in there, it doesn't matter what the rest of the bottle contains.
 

MolaKule

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Originally Posted By: hatt
Not sure of what's being argued here. I guess we should stop using 2 stroke oil, ATF, and motor oil too. It's on the list!!
Me too, what is the point? Various viscosities and purities of the mineral oils have been used in thousands of products, including pharmaceuticals and skin care products. In automotive products, mineral oils are also used as "carriers."
 
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4WD

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Originally Posted By: skyactiv
I'm not reading all that.
I’m probably going to stop using one of them now … but have not decided …
 
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Originally Posted By: earthbound
milk contains sugar believe it or not....
Of course it does. Primarily lactose but others as well.
 
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If you want to stop using ALL additives, you better stop using any engine oil at all, as stated they have additives already inside!! But I think the "you don't need any extra additives" "just use oil, only oil" "snake oils!!!" crew is kinda like the average bloke who surrenders their health care primarily to the physician. Sure physicians know a lot, are real good at surgery, etc. Though at some point you have to take responsibility and lose the gut yourself, get your numbers in check. At some point we'd all be wise to better understand our engines and WHY certain additives are desirable/beneficial. Another analogy: car paint. Must one clay their car? Should you do a lot of buffing until your arms fall off? After all, a regular wash and wax can keep your car looking great for years! Regardless, there are effects of using clay and buffing above and beyond a wash/wax. Engine oil and oil additives are kinda like that.
 
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Originally Posted By: Olinskis
If you want to stop using ALL additives, you better stop using any engine oil at all, as stated they have additives already inside!! But I think the "you don't need any extra additives" "just use oil, only oil" "snake oils!!!" crew is kinda like the average bloke who surrenders their health care primarily to the physician. Sure physicians know a lot, are real good at surgery, etc. Though at some point you have to take responsibility and lose the gut yourself, get your numbers in check. At some point we'd all be wise to better understand our engines and WHY certain additives are desirable/beneficial. Another analogy: car paint. Must one clay their car? Should you do a lot of buffing until your arms fall off? After all, a regular wash and wax can keep your car looking great for years! Regardless, there are effects of using clay and buffing above and beyond a wash/wax. Engine oil and oil additives are kinda like that.
The doctor would be more like a mechanic in this scenario, not an oil formulator. I think the better analogy with regard to healthcare would be to a pharmacist, not a doctor. Adamantly adding aftermarket additives (what a tongue twister) would be like mixing prescriptions or altering prescription medications. Is it going to hurt you? Maybe, maybe not. Could it help more than the original prescription? Not likely.
 
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Originally Posted By: MotoTribologist
Originally Posted By: Olinskis
If you want to stop using ALL additives, you better stop using any engine oil at all, as stated they have additives already inside!! But I think the "you don't need any extra additives" "just use oil, only oil" "snake oils!!!" crew is kinda like the average bloke who surrenders their health care primarily to the physician. Sure physicians know a lot, are real good at surgery, etc. Though at some point you have to take responsibility and lose the gut yourself, get your numbers in check. At some point we'd all be wise to better understand our engines and WHY certain additives are desirable/beneficial. Another analogy: car paint. Must one clay their car? Should you do a lot of buffing until your arms fall off? After all, a regular wash and wax can keep your car looking great for years! Regardless, there are effects of using clay and buffing above and beyond a wash/wax. Engine oil and oil additives are kinda like that.
The doctor would be more like a mechanic in this scenario, not an oil formulator. I think the better analogy with regard to healthcare would be to a pharmacist, not a doctor. Adamantly adding aftermarket additives (what a tongue twister) would be like mixing prescriptions or altering prescription medications. Is it going to hurt you? Maybe, maybe not. Could it help more than the original prescription? Not likely.
Ehhh, the subject wasn't so much what the doctor represents but more the act of surrendering care of your person to them. I like your analogy, but disagree that it's very good. The pharmacist is a middleman, it's the doctor who does the prescriptions. Doctors commonly mix prescriptions AND alter which ones you take and their dosages. People often DO make mistakes on their dosages and mixing medications. You could be prescribed a narcotic for pain management, and end up badly hooked on narcotics. Or you could get some CBD oil from the health food store and self-treat. So in this case, your choice to seek your own treatment can be far less harmful and even more beneficial than the doctor/pharmacists recommendation. Back to the point, educating yourself and making sound decisions about your health [or your engine's health] is a valuable skill. To suggest additives are all snake oil is just laughable.
 
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There are many categories of additives. Unfortunately this thread did not start well because the OP didn't specify. But by what I gather from the start, specifically the reference to UCL, the OP is likely talking about fuel additives. Many gas additives contain mineral oil, but not all fuel additives are an ineffective waste of money. Too many positive accounts from users of Sta-bil, Techron, PEA-based cleaners, and others. Many fuel additives do work, but TOO MANY people are expecting additives to magically rebuild the engine or instantly fix that (insert symptom here). There is no substitute for proper, regular maintenance. So I think a reputable fuel additive/cleaner used 2-3 times per year would help many cars that are not driven regularly or allowed to reach full temperature for over 30 minutes at a time. The need for these additives (and their effectiveness on any given engine) largely depends how the vehicle is driven. Also, that list is absurd. TL:DR
 
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wdn

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Lucas Fuel Treatment UCL is not just mineral oil. It contains polyisobutylene (PIB) and polyisobutylene succinic anhydride (PIBSA). Both are dispersants and detergents. Lucas UCL is a non-solvent cleaner. You also cannot tell much about the composition of a product just by looking at the MSDS because that only lists hazardous compounds. PIB and PIBSA are not hazardous so their name and concentration does not need to be listed. The MSDS certainly does not give away any trade secrets either.
 
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Originally Posted By: wdn
Lucas Fuel Treatment UCL is not just mineral oil. It contains polyisobutylene (PIB) and polyisobutylene succinic anhydride (PIBSA). Both are dispersants and detergents. Lucas UCL is a non-solvent cleaner. You also cannot tell much about the composition of a product just by looking at the MSDS because that only lists hazardous compounds. PIB and PIBSA are not hazardous so their name and concentration does not need to be listed. The MSDS certainly does not give away any trade secrets either.
How do you know it contains PIBA and PIBSA? Thanks
 

wdn

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Lucas UCL having polyisobutylene (PIB) has been discussed on Bobistheoilguy for many years. It is in several other tech forums like dieselplace too. The Lucas technical data sheet says UCL contains a concentrate of polymers in a petroleum oil base with no solvent ingredients. https://lucasoil.com/pdf/TDS_Fuel-Treatment.pdf Since polyisobutylene and PIBSA are non-toxic additives (PIB is used in cosmetics and chewing gum among many other uses) it does not have to be listed as an ingredient on a safety data sheet.
 
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Thanks for letting me know. I just don’t like when companies don’t say what’s in it for basic things like that. Several companies that have PEA say that, not just the SDS.
 

AMC

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Why bother with tires - they are all just rubber. Why bother with fuel - it is all just refined petroleum. Why bother with food - it is all just calories. Why bother with hydration - it is all just water. Why bother with this stupid question - it is all just pointless..... duh
 

MolaKule

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Originally Posted By: DGXR
There are many categories of additives. Unfortunately this thread did not start well because the OP didn't specify. But by what I gather from the start, specifically the reference to UCL, the OP is likely talking about fuel additives. Many gas additives contain mineral oil, but not all fuel additives are an ineffective waste of money. Too many positive accounts from users of Sta-bil, Techron, PEA-based cleaners, and others. Many fuel additives do work, but TOO MANY people are expecting additives to magically rebuild the engine or instantly fix that (insert symptom here). There is no substitute for proper, regular maintenance. So I think a reputable fuel additive/cleaner used 2-3 times per year would help many cars that are not driven regularly or allowed to reach full temperature for over 30 minutes at a time. The need for these additives (and their effectiveness on any given engine) largely depends how the vehicle is driven. Also, that list is absurd. TL:DR
I would just add that light mineral oils in many products are there for specific purposes such as to; 1) to keep the ingredients in solution (mixed), 2) to keep the active component from evaporating (any product containing volatile's such as alcohol), 3) to lower or to increase viscosity, etc. To add some reality to the thread: I don't ever see any Oil Blender or formulator posting a public declaration of his entire formulation for various reasons such as IP, etc. And lastly, unless you are a chemist with an advanced degree, what would you do with the information even if it were published? Unless you have the training and knowledge to interpret the chemistry and how each individual component in the additive package affects each machine component in a mechanical system, you could be making some dangerous assumptions. If you want to know what general chemistry is in engine oils, gear lubricants and hydraulic oils, see this Post: Multi-Functional Additives There is a lot of Information in this Section and well worth consulting: Science and Technology of Oils and Lubricant Additives .
 
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