Why are auto comp. not requiring syn for Turbos

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: stchman
GM in a way is requiring synthetic oil for turbo cars. With GM's new dexos1 certification, the only oils that are dexos1 certified are synthetic blend and full synthetic.

Well, sure. But if tomorrow someone comes up with a mineral oil that can meet dexos1 requirements, will GM not approve this oil?

 

[OneEyeJack]

It appears that the relationship between modern engines and the latest oil is synergistic. Your choice can be made by the owner's manual and the spec's on the bottle without considering such labels as "synthetic", "synthetic-blend" or "conventional".

 

[Ken2]

Miller88 nailed it
Quote:
- Turbos are cooled by coolant now, oil is mainly for lubrication
The cooler a turbocharger runs, the longer it lives, the less it cooks the oil, and the less efficient it is--you want that heat energy going into spinning the compressor blades, but there's gott'a be compromises.

 

[hattaresguy]

Synthetic is mostly marketing. The spec that the oil meets is what counts.

Which is why I always harp on the boutique oil guys for not meeting any manufacture spec's.

 

[tommygunn]

Even "dino" is a synthetic blend now.

 

[SteveSRT8]

But they many times DO meet the spec, they simply did not pay the money for testing and certification/licensing.

As a businessman it seems like a simple thing, they simply do not want to spend the money for a stamp on their bottle...

 

[wemay]

My next oc will be PYB 5w30. It surpasses Hyundai specs and i'm beginning to think that no better spec is needed between Hyundai's recommended 3-5k mile oci for the vehicle. They recommend good old QS dino. Good enough for specs, good enough for me.

 

[pscholte]

I'm glad this issue keeps coming up in case someone on the board comes across new info related to the comparison between conv and "Syn.". While "Syn" is a part of my DNA, my advice for those for whom it is not, is look at the specs and if they meet your car's requirements, go for it whatever the base oils are. Within manufacturer's requirements I do focus on HTHS, TBN, VI, Flashpoint, and pour point.

 

[wemay]

Originally Posted By: pscholte
I'm glad this issue keeps coming up in case someone on the board comes across new info related to the comparison between conv and "Syn.". While "Syn" is a part of my DNA, my advice for those for whom it is not, is look at the specs and if they meet your car's requirements, go for it whatever the base oils are. Within manufacturer's requirements I do focus on HTHS, TBN, VI, Flashpoint, and pour point.


A very even keeled response and one I agree with.

Changed mine today and actually went with my old favorite:

Valvoline 5w30 conventional
Valvoline VO106 oil filter
3k mile oci

 

[Nederlander75]

Water cooled turbos.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Originally Posted By: webfors
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: webfors
- they typically clean better due to higher detergents


Wouldn't this depend more on the add pack rather than the base? What's stopping one from having a strong detergent pack in a mineral oil?


Nothing but cost IMO
I'd say wear - the package balance is a compromise. Plus cost controlled minerals tend to use high % VII which are "dirty".

 

[webfors]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted By: webfors
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: webfors
- they typically clean better due to higher detergents


Wouldn't this depend more on the add pack rather than the base? What's stopping one from having a strong detergent pack in a mineral oil?


Nothing but cost IMO
I'd say wear - the package balance is a compromise. Plus cost controlled minerals tend to use high % VII which are "dirty".


Are you saying higher detergents is a compromise at the cost of higher wear?

 

[oggb]

Because as long as the engine makes it till the end of the warranty period they don't care what you run.

 

[y_p_w]

I specifically remember "synthetic 5W-30" mentioned regarding recommendations for my dad's 1996 Regal GS regarding better low temperature performance.

Of course I agree that the term these days is more about product differentiation than about any truly meaningful term. That wouldn't have been true 15 years ago, when it pretty much meant a group IV/V combination.

There are certainly recommendations although not necessarily outright requirements. There's the current recommendation for Subaru turbo vehicles:

Quote:
http://techinfo.subaru.com/proxy/69530/p...314ASTIS_19.pdf

You should use synthetic engine oil that meets the same requirements given for conventional engine oil. When using synthetic oil, you must use oil of the same classification, viscosity and grade shown in this Owner’s Manual. Refer to “Engine oil” F12-5. Also, you must follow the oil and filter changing intervals shown in the Warranty and Maintenance booklet.

NOTE
Synthetic oil of the grade and viscosity noted in chapter 12 is the recommended engine oil for optimum engine performance. Conventional oil may be used if synthetic oil is unavailable.

http://techinfo.subaru.com/proxy/69530/p...314ASTIS_20.pdf

5W-30 synthetic oil is the required oil for optimum engine performance and protection. Conventional oil may be used if synthetic oil is unavailable.

*: 10W-30, 10W-40, 5W-30 or 5W-40 conventional oil may be used if replenishment is needed but should be changed to 5W-30 synthetic oil at the next oil change.


I do remember a specific product in the mid 80s - Pennzoil PZL Turbo 10W-30. I looked it up, and the name was originally used for an extended drain formula, but eventually belonged to one specifically marketed for turbo engines.

 

[zaibatsu]

The line between synthetic and non-synthetic is forever getting blurrier.

You distinguish them like they are mutually exclusive but that's not the case, most "Synthetic" oil these days use Group III (modified mineral) base oils and even the technology used to create these oils is changing and improving.

I think the potential benefit of a higher grade base oil (Group IV/V) is a higher viscosity index (temperature stability / resistance to thinning) without the need for heavy VI improver additives. From what I've seen this leads to higher viscosities under HTHS conditions vs. regular kinematic viscosity, however in my experience if you go too far with this number you end up sacrificing performance and economy anyway.

Turbines that use bushings rather than bearings generally use a higher pressure oil feed to maintain hydrodynamic lubrication, i.e., the turbine itself is designed for the fact that it has different lubrication needs to a ball-bearing unit.

If you want to be particularly careful (in regard to startup/shutdown contact concerns) then I think any oil with a good anti-wear add package will work - from my basic knowledge I try to pick oils with ~1000ppm each of Zn/P and ~80-100ppm Moly. I'm know other additives can fill in for these, but this way I'm sure.

I do use synthetic oils too - but I can't imagine any reasonable quality, modern base oil being inadequate - whether synthetic or not.

 

[bluesubie]

Originally Posted By: wemay

2010 Mitubishi Ralliart and some say, even the Evo
No manual information found but this was my last car and it never specified Syn either



Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
The turbos on those new cars are probably so small and whimpy that they won't hurt the oil at all.


Originally Posted By: y_p_w
I specifically remember "synthetic 5W-30" mentioned regarding recommendations for my dad's 1996 Regal GS regarding better low temperature performance.

Of course I agree that the term these days is more about product differentiation than about any truly meaningful term. That wouldn't have been true 15 years ago, when it pretty much meant a group IV/V combination.

There are certainly recommendations although not necessarily outright requirements. There's the current recommendation for Subaru turbo vehicles:

http://techinfo.subaru.com/proxy/69530/p...314ASTIS_19.pdf

You should use synthetic engine oil that meets the same requirements given for conventional engine oil. When using synthetic oil, you must use oil of the same classification, viscosity and grade shown in this Owner’s Manual. Refer to “Engine oil” F12-5. Also, you must follow the oil and filter changing intervals shown in the Warranty and Maintenance booklet.

http://techinfo.subaru.com/proxy/69530/p...314ASTIS_20.pdf

5W-30 synthetic oil is the required oil for optimum engine performance and protection. Conventional oil may be used if synthetic oil is unavailable.

*: 10W-30, 10W-40, 5W-30 or 5W-40 conventional oil may be used if replenishment is needed but should be changed to 5W-30 synthetic oil at the next oil change.

Application, application, application.

For purposes of this discussion, let's refer to "synthetic" the way the general public and oil company marketing departments refer to synthetic.

IMO, it does depend on the application like the above posters inferred and the EVO does require synthetic and came with Mobil1 from the factory. Yes, a completely different animal than a standard Ralliart. And while some WRX owners have had good luck with conventional oils at short intervals of 3k miles or so, Subaru even recommends synthetic for the older turbocharged cars that don't "require" it.

It doesn't make sense to get a 265 - 305 hp turbocharged four cylinder Evo or Subaru and try to run conventional oil in it. Some of the other turbos mentioned are fine running conventional. And people shouldn't assume what works fine for one application is fine for all applications.

-Dennis

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted By: y_p_w
I specifically remember "synthetic 5W-30" mentioned regarding recommendations for my dad's 1996 Regal GS regarding better low temperature performance.

Of course I agree that the term these days is more about product differentiation than about any truly meaningful term. That wouldn't have been true 15 years ago, when it pretty much meant a group IV/V combination.

There are certainly recommendations although not necessarily outright requirements. There's the current recommendation for Subaru turbo vehicles:

Quote:
http://techinfo.subaru.com/proxy/69530/p...314ASTIS_19.pdf

You should use synthetic engine oil that meets the same requirements given for conventional engine oil. When using synthetic oil, you must use oil of the same classification, viscosity and grade shown in this Owner’s Manual. Refer to “Engine oil” F12-5. Also, you must follow the oil and filter changing intervals shown in the Warranty and Maintenance booklet.

NOTE
Synthetic oil of the grade and viscosity noted in chapter 12 is the recommended engine oil for optimum engine performance. Conventional oil may be used if synthetic oil is unavailable.

http://techinfo.subaru.com/proxy/69530/p...314ASTIS_20.pdf

5W-30 synthetic oil is the required oil for optimum engine performance and protection. Conventional oil may be used if synthetic oil is unavailable.

*: 10W-30, 10W-40, 5W-30 or 5W-40 conventional oil may be used if replenishment is needed but should be changed to 5W-30 synthetic oil at the next oil change.


I do remember a specific product in the mid 80s - Pennzoil PZL Turbo 10W-30. I looked it up, and the name was originally used for an extended drain formula, but eventually belonged to one specifically marketed for turbo engines.

Check it out! They even called it *Ultra* back in the 80s :^)

 

[artificialist]

Volvo has numerous engines that specify conventional oil, but on every single one I ever worked on, they were full of varnish. That was true even at 3000 mile oil change intervals.

I will not use less than full synthetic in any turvo engine for this reason.

 

[wemay]

My Sister owned a '92 740 Turbo in Phoenix AZ. Never saw synthetic and was sold with 285,000 miles on the odo, no engine issues. (Electrical gremlins was the reason it was sold in 2009)

This isnt representative of all Volvo's, i know. But there is proof that this is more than a Bigfoot sighting as there are many Volvo Turbo's with high milage that have used only conventional oil on the Volvo forums. Plus, i was more asking the question concerning today's market and newer vehicles with (not sure this makes a difference)ball bearing turbos, not journal bearings of the past.

i think i'm with bluesubie on this one. Application and the way the vehicle is used makes all the difference. My Ralliart, Sportback as well, only saw synthetic. Although Mitsubishi only filled it with conventional at the dealership as well unless you paid more for the Syn. I think Mitsu has since advised using syn again but i'm not sure. BUT, i dont track my Santa Fe Sport...

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: wemay
My Sister owned a '92 740 Turbo in Phoenix AZ. Never saw synthetic and was sold with 285,000 miles on the odo, no engine issues. (Electrical gremlins was the reason it was sold in 2009)

This isnt representative of all Volvo's, i know. But there is proof that this is more than a Bigfoot sighting as there are many Volvo Turbo's with high milage that have used only conventional oil on the Volvo forums. Plus, i was more asking the question concerning today's market and newer vehicles with (not sure this makes a difference)ball bearing turbos, not journal bearings of the past.

i think i'm with bluesubie on this one. Application and the way the vehicle is used makes all the difference. My Ralliart, Sportback as well, only saw synthetic. Although Mitsubishi only filled it with conventional at the dealership as well unless you paid more for the Syn. I think Mitsu has since advised using syn again but i'm not sure. BUT, i dont track my Santa Fe Sport...

Weren't their turbos water cooled by the 90s?