No your tying to unrelated events together. Castrol pulled GC a long time ago after VW dealerships reported major problems. Remember this was years back. As I just said GC you have now could be totally different. The OCI's by the way are current car manufacturer OCI's including Ford and GM. If I can find a manufacturer with less thann 10Kkms OCI I'll post it. 15,000 to 20,000 will be the norm for most from now on. Do the conversion to miles and yu'll see they are long compared to yours Same engines across the board. current hi-tech oils are way to valuable/expensive to change at 2,000 miles in the current environment. Cheers...s
Who says run 3k -5k on dino?
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My dad's 626 began to build deposits after I let it go longer than 5000 miles or 8000 km with convetional oil a couple of times. The manual calls for 6000 km. Coolant is 100 C, so chemical reactions go 4x faster than at the 80C in my car. PCV system is working, and there's no coolant loss. Next change it's getting synth.
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I never exceed 3.5K with quality dinos. All the folks here using OLMs & going 10-12K on dinos..... well please post pics of your engine interiors at 150K -- plus offer us any engine repairs in that time frame.
I would bet in most cases, that vehicle would be in the hands of some other ownership.
A recent survey of SAE articles found MAJOR improvements in engine component life with bypass filters ( see Bypass Filter section and look for "SAE ON BYPASS FILTERS").Second to using a bypass filter, the best way to decrease the contamination level of your oil is to change it frequently.The UOA's you guys usually run do not take into account the increased level of contaminates that lap your engine components like a fine grinding paste. People who change their oil frequently will have substantailly longer engine life than people who do not, simply because of the reduced contaminates.You can argue the cost/effectiveness all you want, but frequent oil changes are better for your car, period.
Sprintman, I see what you're talking about now. Thanks for clearifying that
So, you're saying that ONLY a bypass setup is safe for extended drains? And for the sake of this thread we'll say "extended" is beyond about 4K. Isn't filtering and reducing contaminates the job of the oil filter, even if it is a single unit? At which point, a high quality filter (of the non-fram variety) should be able to do just that. Granted, a bypass might be able to extend dino drains beyond 10K and have the oil be in better shape than without it, but I don't see why a top notch filter on it's own wouldn't be able to keep contminants out of the oil for a modest 4-5K OCI.
...or am I reading too much into your post
P.S. What do you consider "more frequent oil changes"?
I've not read the paper, but i would tend to agree with you. It certainly makes sense to me that a car with the oil changed every 3,000 miles will last longer with decreased wear than a car with 6,000 mile OCI's. Not to mention wear on related items not necessarily thought of as oil-related but nevertheless affected by an engine that is not properly maintained (eg tranny, cooling system, fuel system, etc...).
IMHO 4,000-5,000 miles on oil seems acceptable, but 10,000 miles just seem to be asking for trouble regardless of the choice of oil being synthetic of traditional dino.
I paid a little over 21,000 dollars for my car and spending 10-15 dollars every 3,000 miles seems a reasonable expense over the life of the car.
If you change the oil every 3,000 miles and drive it for 200,000 miles, that's around 67 oil changes. At 15 dollars each, thats around 1,000 dollars over the life of the vehicle.
Doubling your OCI will indeed save you 500 dollars, but over the life of the vehicle 500 dollars seems to be minor when compaired with the risk of having to rebuild the engine or related components.
Using synthetic oil may allow for extended OCI's but considering synthetic is 3x the cost of dino, you would have to triple your OCI's to 9,000. That may be acceptable for some engines but there are too many factors to allow for that across the board. Personally i would not feel comfortable going 10,000 miles on any kind of oil.
For those that bring up the argument of wasting resources changing your oil too often, it seems to me that changing it not often enough also wastes resources down the road with premature rebuilds, more gas burned, more components replaced early (O2 sensors, fuel injectors, batteries, etc.).
My father and I both bought our previous cars around the same time. Both were 4 cyl imports. I sold mine with 225,000 miles on the clock with no engine or tranny problems ever, still getting 30 MPG, and never burning a drop of oil. I changed my oil every 2000-3000 miles.
My father gave his to my brother-in-law and included the case of pennzoil in the trunk for adding a quart every 500 miles. He changed his oil every 5000 miles and drove MUCH easier than did I.
Obviously this is not *proof* but it did factor into my decision that more frequent oil changes are indeed good for the car in the long run.
Additionally, and ironically, Dad always used Pennzoil, a favorite around here, and i always used Valvoline or Napa branded valvoline, an often bad-mouthed oil around here
Having said all that, if you are leasing a car and only plan to keep it 3 years, you might as well just follow the needed OCI to keep it in warranty.
I'd take that bet
If we extended that to 300,000 miles would you still be willing to wager?
Can I jump into this too? My chev Lumina..nothing but dino, car has 130k on the clock and this thing runs LITERALLY like the day I bought it. Runs perfectly. My friend and his M1 changine twice a year, dirt swirling around in his oil for six months...he can keep that!!!!! I will go further by saying that extended drains are the result of pure lazines and neglect.
Send me your oil to please. Looks like I'll be getting a heap of barely used oil for free soon. It all helps!
I use synthetic oil(Amsoil) per yearly intervals.
I like the performance of using synthetic oil and the MPG savings with the price of fuel actually saves me $ during the long run per/ yearly intervals compaing to 3K dino OCI. Also my engine feels more responsive...can't see myself going back to dino 3K intervals.
Also, I once blew my radiator cap off and drove about 10 miles+ on an incline using Amsoil 0w-30 with no engine or heat problem what so ever. The oil refuse to heat-up so to speak. Don't think dino oil could had protected the engine ... was I glad I had synthetic oil in there. Things happen!
Just a piece of mind....never going back to dino oil. My engine still runs like new with 105K and been on Amsoil since 1K!
I like the performance of using synthetic oil and the MPG savings with the price of fuel actually saves me $ during the long run per/ yearly intervals compaing to 3K dino OCI. Also my engine feels more responsive...can't see myself going back to dino 3K intervals.
Also, I once blew my radiator cap off and drove about 10 miles+ on an incline using Amsoil 0w-30 with no engine or heat problem what so ever. The oil refuse to heat-up so to speak. Don't think dino oil could had protected the engine ... was I glad I had synthetic oil in there. Things happen!
Just a piece of mind....never going back to dino oil. My engine still runs like new with 105K and been on Amsoil since 1K!
Yes, yes, we've all heard the "inexpensive insurance" argument, ad nauseum. "You can't change your oil too often!" That's right...and you can't put new tires on your car too often, right? I mean, you wouldn't want to run on tread that has worn by 1/100", would you? Oh, and while you're at it, go ahead and do a complete tune-up at every oil change...again, your car will last longer, won't it? And don't forget to change the transmission fluid and filter ever 5k miles, and flush and fill the differential, too. All of those systems wear, too, so you wouldn't want to ignore them, either!
Just because you *think* it's good to change your oil every 3K miles doesn't mean it is. Of course, there are times where it may be necessary...in EXTREME cases. But for the vast majority of us, it's just wasting money...period. The oil is not protecting your engine any better at 3K miles than it is at 5K or 6K miles in most cases. See the NYC cab test article from Consumer Reports, run 10 years ago. http://www.xs11.com/stories/croil96.htm Keep in mind that this was back when SG was the standard...how much better are PCMO's nowadays? MUCH better.
Feel free to read the whole article, or I can save you some time and give you the upshot: After 60,000 miles of harsh, NYC taxi cab driving using 6K oil change intervals, they saw no notable wear or contamination. Their concusion? 3K mile oci's are too conservative for all but the most severe conditions. Again, this was 10 years ago. If you're concerned, do some UOA's and see for yourself, or ease your mind, or something.
I'm with Sprintman...send me your used oil!
Just because you *think* it's good to change your oil every 3K miles doesn't mean it is. Of course, there are times where it may be necessary...in EXTREME cases. But for the vast majority of us, it's just wasting money...period. The oil is not protecting your engine any better at 3K miles than it is at 5K or 6K miles in most cases. See the NYC cab test article from Consumer Reports, run 10 years ago. http://www.xs11.com/stories/croil96.htm Keep in mind that this was back when SG was the standard...how much better are PCMO's nowadays? MUCH better.
Feel free to read the whole article, or I can save you some time and give you the upshot: After 60,000 miles of harsh, NYC taxi cab driving using 6K oil change intervals, they saw no notable wear or contamination. Their concusion? 3K mile oci's are too conservative for all but the most severe conditions. Again, this was 10 years ago. If you're concerned, do some UOA's and see for yourself, or ease your mind, or something.
I'm with Sprintman...send me your used oil!
I can play amateur shrink too.
Too frequent changes are the result of brainwashing and timidity.
Well said my friend!
You make a good argument, and I'm not knocking your opinion. However, just as one might think it's a good idea to change ones oil more frequently not making it so, likewise your not thinking it's necesary does not make that so either.
I've read the consumer reports article a few times over the years. One thing stands out in my mind. I don't drive a taxi. Are these driving conditions really harsh on oil? I would argue otherwise. A car that gets miles put on it very quickly with limited cold starts would be considered an ideal operating condition, far from 'harsh'. In addition the two OCI's they used were 3K and 6K, not the 10K or 15K some on here would try. I am not worried about my car going 60K with no wear, i'm worried about it going 260K with no wear.
UOA's are helpful, but far from perfect. At some point oil looses it's ability to carry contaminants and they instead end up as sludge in the block. When a UOA shows little or no crud in the oil, it's more useful than when it shows significant as we dont know how much more is hiding inside.
I've read hundreds of UOA's and feel confident saying that changing ones oil every 3K-5K miles is a good idea if you want to keep your car for a long time. Not doing so will not guarantee you a sludge or wear problem, but depending on your driving habits and environment, it will certainly raise the chance of having a significant problem.
Your driving conditions would also be considered 'ideal' and would likely not pose any problem with 5k-6k intervals. However your previous statements leed one to believe you advocate 6k or greater OCI's for everyone in all conditions. Reading the UOA's section does not appear to support this recommendation however.
If you pay the postage i'll be happy to send you my 3k-4K mile Motorcraft 5w30.
If you enjoy changing your oil (as i do) no need to feel bad or appologize for itquote:
Originally posted by grbr95:
LOL....I knew I would open myself up when I made that comment... well put everyone. I admit it, I'm brainwashed, but I'm happily brainwashed
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hominid7 I'm wondering what UOA data you're referring to. I see most UOAs don't even approach 6k or more. They're heavily weighted in 3-5k range. The list of 10k+ members is fairly shallow compared to them. In the absense of fuel or moisture or TBN or whatnot ..most of the oils have appeared suitable for continued use. Many that we see are actually 6 month OCIs ..where the owner just doesn't hammer it like they did when they were carting kids around all over heck and gone.
Now one engine or another may respond better to one oil or another in terms of elemental readings ..but I've only seen a handful where the engine was in any real risk from the oil. Risk from poor air filtration ..risk from coolant ...etc...etc. ..but rarely at risk due to the oil itself.
Now if we had a membership that actually adhered to the factory recommendations ..under the qualified conditions ..then that would perhaps provide you with the inferential data to suggest that they're going to see a shorter engine life for following it.
I think a bunch of this speculation will be eliminated when Oil Life Monitors are more widely used. It will take all the subjective influences out of the equation. It would then be down to those who adhere to it ..and those who draw their line early. There are a few UOAs where the member adhered fairly close to the OLM ..and the results were pretty much on track for the condition of the oil. Naturally, the mileage was somewhat longer then 3-5k.
Now one engine or another may respond better to one oil or another in terms of elemental readings ..but I've only seen a handful where the engine was in any real risk from the oil. Risk from poor air filtration ..risk from coolant ...etc...etc. ..but rarely at risk due to the oil itself.
Now if we had a membership that actually adhered to the factory recommendations ..under the qualified conditions ..then that would perhaps provide you with the inferential data to suggest that they're going to see a shorter engine life for following it.
I think a bunch of this speculation will be eliminated when Oil Life Monitors are more widely used. It will take all the subjective influences out of the equation. It would then be down to those who adhere to it ..and those who draw their line early. There are a few UOAs where the member adhered fairly close to the OLM ..and the results were pretty much on track for the condition of the oil. Naturally, the mileage was somewhat longer then 3-5k.
OLM are an excellent tool and i think if used could leed to 1) longer OCI's and 2) better wearing engines, and i never plan on using one.
My point is not that extended OCI's are 'bad' my point is that a recomendation of extended OCI's across the board is a dangerous idea.
I did not state i had read hundreds of UOA's on cars with 10K mile OCI's, i stated i had read hundreds, and felt comfortable with my 3000 mile OCI.
Lets assume that your engine produces the same amount of contaminants regardless of the OCI used. 3K, 5K, 15K, etc... All the OCI's produce equal amounts of iron per 1,000 miles driven. Would it not be better to change it every 3K miles to get rid of the contaminants?
I have never heard of an engine failure or engine sludge caused by too frequent an OCI.
My point is not that extended OCI's are 'bad' my point is that a recomendation of extended OCI's across the board is a dangerous idea.
I did not state i had read hundreds of UOA's on cars with 10K mile OCI's, i stated i had read hundreds, and felt comfortable with my 3000 mile OCI.
Lets assume that your engine produces the same amount of contaminants regardless of the OCI used. 3K, 5K, 15K, etc... All the OCI's produce equal amounts of iron per 1,000 miles driven. Would it not be better to change it every 3K miles to get rid of the contaminants?
I have never heard of an engine failure or engine sludge caused by too frequent an OCI.
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