Who is the oil company that leads the way

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What I was leading up to was that the small(er) formulater now has the choice of choosing ConocoPhillips and a host of other oil companies for their PAO's and Group V's, and do not have to beg EM for part of their base oil supply.

EM produces a lot of PAO and Group V's for their own internal use, for sure, but they are no longer the major player with the newly minted competitors out there.
 
How can Amsoil, Redline, etc be a industry leader when they dont produce any of their own raw materials? Basicly they use what the big boys will sell them.
The leader sin my opinion are Exxon-Mobil, Shell and Chevron.
 
All of the first tier synthetic oil "makers" (Amsoil, Mobil 1, Castrol, Royal Purple, etc) produce a first quality motor oil. One oil may have a slight advantage in one situtation and another oil will be slightly better in another situtation due to specific formulations.

The real difference is price. The big companies that produce their own base stocks and have higher sales voluumes have a distinct advantage in pricing. My quess (and it is a pure guess based on 40 years experience in industry - X CFO) is that the big guys are making more profit per quart than the smaller guys are, despite selling at lower prices.

The smaller players need to fund synthetic oil life studies like the one being done here to demonstate "objectivly" that their products are superior and worthy of the added cost. I am talking about studies using multiple engines and multiple oils under semi-controlled conditions (like the study being done here) and all of the results being published for the public to see.

We need "data" to detertmine the major players, tales of a single vehicle are of little value.
 
quote:

is that the big guys are making more profit per quart than the smaller guys are, despite selling at lower prices.

For sure, do to economies of scale.

Let's say for example I had 1,000 acres of jojoba, and 10,000 acres of soybeans and my own processing plants, I could make pure bio-oils for much less than if I had to purchase them from third-party firms.

If I had my own wells in the North Sea or Arabia, and had crude processing plants all over the world, my costs would be lower to make my own oils, since in many cases, I would not have to transport my own base oils any further than maybe down a pipe to an adjacent processing or blending plant.
 
Wulimaster - The big boys formulate on price and not quality. Their incentive is to make the product cost them the least while meeting the minimum requirements. Just because they make the basestocks and additive packages doesn't mean they use the best basestocks and additives for their API products.

I don't know where you get your information from but I doubt you were in the meeting when the "big boys" decided how to formulate their oil.

I prefer to see the performace data and decide for myself the relative quality of a product. Looking over the multitude of used oil analysis posted on this web site (makes my eyes hurt) I can't see a distinct difference between the "big guys" and the boutique sellers. Sometimes the "big guys" are a little better, sometimes not.

The current synthetic oil life study being done on this site really has me interested. It is the first time I am seeing "objective" information on the performance of competing products under reasonable (though not perfect) conditions.

Granted, a sample of one engine is not great science it is way better than nothing.

So far the "big guy" ran 18,000 miles with one filter change at 12,000 miles. The boutique oil has now gone 10,000 miles, no filter change yet and is still looking pretty good.

We will see what we will see. The thing I like is that the data is objective, the criteria was set before the test was started (what would cause them to stop), and so far the rules have been followed.

Information not inuendo is KING!
 
Marketing and distribution certainly plays an important part in the effectiveness of motor oil.

Im not sure that the Wal-Mart distribution model is conducive towards helping the average Joe get the best motor oil in his car. Honestly, does the average oil buyer at Wal-Mart come to BITOG and check out the latest UOAs? Seriously if you want to hear the worst and most biased information about motor oil then spend 10 minutes with shoppers at the Wal-Mart motor oil dept. Everyone has biases and most of them are ridiculous. One person will claim that Pennzoil will sludge up an engine while the next will tout the virtues of Quaker State because their Uncle Joe used it for 50 years. You will see people adding 20W-50 oils to brand new Honda cars that suggest a 5W-20 and they will do it in the middle of winter. Ask them why, and they will tell you that a 50 weight oil is better than a 20 weight oil and cousin Tom is a mechanic and told them so.

Wal-Mart could care less about selling the "best" oil. They want to move product.

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Hutchinson Technology makes a .10 cent part for their suspensions that can double the life of a disk drive. Most disk drive companies ignore it. HTCH charges .10 cents extra and then the head manufacturers mark the thing up to sell to the disk drive companies who mark their products up to sell to computer manufacturers who mark up their products to sell to retailers who mark up their products to sell to consumers. Meanwhile, Wal-Mart has $500 computers on sale and you can bet your last dollar that longevity isnt a concern. Wal-Mart wants to move product and cheap prices help. If your hard drive crashes at 20,000 hours of use instead of 50,000 hours then Wal-Mart doesnt care though they will be happy to sell you a new computer. Most computers have only a single moving part and its the disk drive and the debate is germane to the discussion. Almost every person if informed would be willing to pay the .10 cents for the HTCH part if it would double the lifespan of the hard drive and in effect usually the computer. However, when the Wal-Mart computer sells for an attractive price point versus the more reliable computer then the masses buy the cheaper computer.

Im guessing that boutique oils face similar challenges. We can pretend that if Amsoil or Royal Purple or Redline sold through Wal-Mart that the prices would be lower. Maybe they would. However, dealing with Wal-Mart and Target and Autozone can be frustrating. Each retailer wants to scoop the other guy and get the best price for their customers. If you want to do business with Wal-Mart then expect very slim margins on your product. Ive seen M1 on sale at Wal-Mart for $3.79 per quart and Ive seen this price within the last 7 days. It wasnt a sale price. I doubt that Mobile or Wal-Mart either one is making much money off of this product.

Now perhaps this is good for the consumer but perhaps it isnt. Maybe Redline or Royal Purple would love to sell to Wal-Mart but Wal-Mart buyers are sitting there suggesting that they lower their price so that Wal-Mart can put a price point of $5 per quart on the shelf.

Will compromises be made and the oil downgraded?

Will the additives that might cost a couple of pennies per quart be removed and left out to meet the stringent price point demands? Will customers still be getting the same quality?

We can bash Amsoil and others for distributing their products in Avon type manner but perhaps it works for them. Perhaps Amsoil dealers do try to learn a bit about oil and educate their customers. Perhaps Royal Purple can manufacture their products to their standards rather than having to cut corners to meet a retailers price point shelf objectives. Perhaps an oil without price compromise like Redline might have some appeal.

A .10 cent component on a disk drive or a penny additive in a motor oil might not seem to matter to those that care about quality and most here would be those that do care. However, there are a thousand customers at Wal-Mart everyday buying the cheapest "40 weight" oil that Wal-Mart sells rather than looking on the back labels for GF-4 standards, SL qualifications, and Moly-ZDDP anti-wear additives.

If Amsoil sold its Ow-30 motor oil at Wal-Mart and brought its price point down to $5.50 it would bomb because most Wal-Mart consumers would walk right by it to purchase a grade 3 synthetic Super-Tech oil thats $2 per quart cheaper. Wal-Mart would drop the line after 6 months because of poor sales and Amsoil would go into bankruptcy.

Dealers would abandon Amsoil left and right and start buying through Wal-Mart and Wal-Mart still wouldnt sell enough product to justify its shelf space requirements for price to shelf square inch margin profitabily. Wal-Mart would junk the Amsoil to carry funnels or something that would make more money per square inch of shelf space devoted to it.

Maybe people like the Amsoil dealers and maybe they dont. But at least Amsoil doesnt have to bow down and kiss the feet of the Wal-Mart buyers who dictate to them price points of products on the shelves. As a result, Amsoil doesnt have to compromise on their quality.

Again, Im not saying that Amsoil is the best motor oil or isnt. But its nice to know that a company can produce a motor oil they believe in rather than letting the Wal-mart buyers engineer and design the product based on public perception of retail value.

90% of the people who buy oil care more about the price on the shelf rather than the oils ability to protect their car and enhance its lifespan.

Wal-Mart corporate buyers arent friends to the BITOG type fanatics who care about things like gas mileage, enhanced lifespan of vehicles, caring for their cars, and showing respect for their rides.

Wal-Mart wants cheap product for their shelves that will move fast and take money from consumers and transfer it to its corporate coffers.

Is compromise of quality for enhanced market share a good thing?

You decide.

Comments?

Happy Motoring All,

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Bugshu
 
Bugshu - Is compromise of quality for enhanced market share a good thing?

You can bet the farm that every company in the world who is marketing a commercial product is doing just this every day of the week.

Do you think the boutique oil makers don't care about cost/benefit?

Do you think Nike does not care what sneekers cost?

One area I can think of where cost is no object is where the item (no matter what it cost) is a small part of the total cost. Maybe auto racing would be an example. Race teams probably could not care less if the oil were $10 a quart or $100 a quart. If it gave the "the edge" they would buy it because they are spending hundreds of thousands of $$ on each race and chasing millions of $$.
 
Bugshu - Wal-Mart wants cheap product for their shelves that will move fast and take money from consumers and transfer it to its corporate coffers.

If you would allow me to rephrase the above:

Wal-Mart wants products that provide a good value for their customers to populate their shelves in the hope that the customers will gladly give their money to Wal-Mart and make Wal-Mart a successful corporate citizen who rewards their investors with above average returns.
 
Bugshu - If Amsoil sold its Ow-30 motor oil at Wal-Mart and brought its price point down to $5.50 it would bomb because most Wal-Mart consumers would walk right by it to purchase a grade 3 synthetic Super-Tech oil thats $2 per quart cheaper. Wal-Mart would drop the line after 6 months because of poor sales and Amsoil would go into bankruptcy.

If this is true then how is it that Wal-Mart sells so much Mobil 1 at a premium price?

Could it be that the customer perceives a "value"?
 
Bugshu - Hutchinson Technology makes a .10 cent part for their suspensions that can double the life of a disk drive. Most disk drive companies ignore it.

What you are suggesting is that most disk drive makers (in a real cut throat business) are stupid. I doubt that.

Maybe Hutchinson Technology has not convinced the manufacturers that thier $0.10 part would really double the life of a disk drive.

Maybe the lives of the drives are already so long that there in no commercial benefit to extending the life.

Maybe a lot of things but in any case you can bet there is a logical reason for this result.

I have more than a little experience in the HDD business, these guys are smart, tough, and would do almost anything to get a competitive advantage in the marketplace.
 
Bugshu - 90% of the people who buy oil care more about the price on the shelf rather than the oils ability to protect their car and enhance its lifespan.

I respectfuly disagree.

I think 90% of the people who buy oil are trying to get the best value for their $$. The two factors that determine the oil they choose is perceived quality and cost. Perceived quality decisions are made based on oil company marketing, Uncle Bob the mechanic, what Gramps told me, and 1000 other life experiences.

The customer weighs the perceived quality of the product against the asking price in his imperfect brain and makes a purchase decision.

Would reading the posts on this board help? Sure.

But what do the posts on here really tell you? My conclusion is that for most drivers who follow a reasonable oil change routine most any API certified oil in the appropriate viscosity will do just fine. The guy with the "street monster" turbo something or another probably needs some special oil and hopefully he knows that, he has the manual.
 
G-Man II - If Mobil is no longer a major player in PAOs, then what constitutes a "major player" and who is one?

The statement was that Mobil is no longer THE major player in PAOs. That is not to suggest that they are not one of several "big boys" producing PAOs.
 
quote:


Maybe Hutchinson Technology has not convinced the manufacturers that thier $0.10 part would really double the life of a disk drive.

Maybe the lives of the drives are already so long that there in no commercial benefit to extending the life.

Very good analysis, my Ugly friend! The same logic very likely applies to synthetic oils for the average driver. No doubt syn oils clearly outperform regular oils in empirical terms...but:

1) Has anyone really shown in real-world use that syn oils actually increase engine life? (Mobil's comparison and million mile tests come pretty close in my book).

2) Has anyone really shown that there is a commercial benefit to increasing engine life past what is now achievable with regular oil? (ie the classic argument of why sweat the engine when it will outlast the rest of the car on dino anyway).

Until there is real proof on these points, synthetic oil will continue to be more of an 'enthusiast' or 'feel good' thing, or a requirement for specialty vehicles. Of course I've been using Mobil1 anyway
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I can't help but think that what we on BITOG consider "cheap insurance" (using $5 oil every 5-7.5K in a regular car or changing dino every 3K need it or not) is really throwing away a lot of money that could be put to better use. If we all could use $1 dino and 5K changes and get FUNCTIONALLY the same result wouldn't we be better off?

[ August 18, 2004, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: Matt89 ]
 
Bugshu - WM will go open a factory in China in a heartbeat and cut the supplier out of the picture to save a penny or two on a pair of socks. And that is a fact.

I have seen Wal-Mart accused of a lot of things but never opening a factory in China. Please share with us the details of the factory Wal-Mart is operating in China (or anywhere else).
 
Bugshu - WM is not a succesful corporate citizen to those who supply its products. There are many stories of WM forcing its suppliers into bankruptcy by demanding lower and lower prices. Sunbeam, Gitano, Vlassic Pickles and many others have entered bankruptcy.

Wal-Mart can not force any supplier to reduce selling prices. The supplier has the choice to sell through the Wal-Mart distribution channel or not - it is the suppliers choice. It is the same choice the supplier had the first day they signed on with Wal-Mart (or any other distribution channel).

Of your examples of companies that went bankrupt I am familar with only the Sunbeam case. Their bankruptcy had nothing to do with Wal-Mart distribution, it had to do with poor product design, poor quality, and basically making a non-competitive product. They have regrouped, changed management, dumped poor products, improved quality, and are now fighting for their lives trying to outlive the bad reputation they earned.

I did a little research on Vlasic Pickles. Vlasic was "spun off" from Campbell Soup in 1998 with a substantial amount of debt. Vlasic had somewhere between 24% and 35% of the market (depends on which data you choose). They were unable to generate enough profit to service their debt and grow sales at the same time (capital investment and advertising). The Vlasic unit was sold to Heinz in 2001 and are proving excellent products to their millions of customers. I would attribute this bankruptcy to a combination of under capitalization and poor management. Any company that has 30% of a national market and can't be competitive deserves what they get!
 
Yeah what he said ......Amsoil :yaaawwwnn:
No love loss here,that Pyramid scam Clown show will never see a nickle outta my pocket.
Their old news and hopefully soon to follow the path of Tupperware.


quote:

Originally posted by G-Man II:

quote:

Originally posted by TOMBUCK:
ASMOIL LEADS THE WAY IN MY BOOK.

Yeah, they sure do, with their additive technology and base oil chemistry basically where Mobil 1 was 15 years ago.
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Amsoil was cutting edge in 1974 with their ester based synthetic 10w40. Right now, they are yesterday's oil, a PAO-based synthetic with a backward perspective on EP/AW additives.


 
Bugshu - You want to know about Gitano (Fruit Of The Loom Company)?

Fruit Of The Loom

As of 10/99 they had $2,284,000 of assets and $2,488,000 of debt. This didn't happen because of some single event, it is a result of being non-competitive for many years. It is generally called poor management.
 
Wal-Mart and Vlasic Pickles:

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=wal+mart+china&ei=UTF-8&fr=FP-tab-web-t&cop=mss&tab=

Wal-Mart and China:

http://www.alternet.org/story/12962

Wal-Mart Chinese suppliers perspectives:

http://www.ibew1996.com/walmarts.htm

Wal-Mart employee conditions:

http://www.walmartwatch.com/know/view.cfm?id=1187

Its well known that WM opposes unions in China despite Chinese laws that require all firms with employees of 25 or more to unionize.

Type in Wal-Mart China into a Yahoo search and you will get hundreds if not thousands of results.

WM might not technically own the factories in China but they pay the people who do own them to build them, and they tell them how much to pay their employees, and they tell them how much they are allowed to make and they tell them what they will pay for the product.

We can debate whether these "suppliers" are truly independent business entities or whether they are soldiers that march in step to Wal-Mart whims but certainly the WM Chinese suppliers usually have less autonomy over their fate than do most US firms that actually still compete for business.

This forum has become way off topic and yet there is a point where WM's dictates do impact the quality of products sold in the US. WM sells more product than anybody else so they hold the power.

If small boutique firms like Schaeffer or whomever can distribute their product in a manner which they dont have to knuckle under to WM buyers and purchasing agents then I applaud them.

Happy Motoring All,

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Bugshu
 
I know of a start up lubes company in the MidWest US. that formulates every product on the cutting edge of technology and will attempt to keep the products affordable.

Problem is they are not ready for business yet and alas I can't announce their NAME.

But BITOG folks will be the first to hear about them just like Auto-RX and LubeControl.

Terry
 
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