I agree. I mean Amsoil is a great oil with great UOA's, and if it beats GC in my comparo then i will go back to it. I wouldnt on the other hand call them a leader. MY pick would have been ExxonMobil, but im limited in this area and thats why i thought it'd be an interesting post.
Who is the oil company that leads the way
- Thread starter elwaylite
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Amsoil WAS a leader.
Amsoil has become stuck in a rut in some ways. They NEED to improve their time to market. They NEED to lose some old ways of thinking.
They are NOT where M1 was 15 years ago. That is just wrong. They are NOT backwards thinking, as proven by the UOA's, BUT they do need to wake up and realize they are not the only player and the value of old is not the value of today.
As for MLM, there is nothing inherently wrong with the approach and if you tend to think Walmart, K-Mart, Bi-Mart are where it's at, then knock yourself out. WuLi makes a great point.....
Amsoil has become stuck in a rut in some ways. They NEED to improve their time to market. They NEED to lose some old ways of thinking.
They are NOT where M1 was 15 years ago. That is just wrong. They are NOT backwards thinking, as proven by the UOA's, BUT they do need to wake up and realize they are not the only player and the value of old is not the value of today.
As for MLM, there is nothing inherently wrong with the approach and if you tend to think Walmart, K-Mart, Bi-Mart are where it's at, then knock yourself out. WuLi makes a great point.....
Of course they are, Pablo. They still build their bread-and-butter synthetics the way Mobil 1 was built 15 years ago: A PAO/ester base oil blend with ZDDP for AW/EP and calcium/magnesium as the detergent/dispersant.
Mobil 1 is now using reduced levels of ZDDP, with moly and boron for FM/AW/EP, overbase calcium levels for AW/EP and detergency, and alkylated napthelene providing the solvency that the esters once did. And you've got Castrol and Fuchs utilizing next generation esters with little or no ZDDP in their 0w oils. THESE are examples of cutting edge oil formulations and Amsoil is rapidly getting left behind.
G-man I have yet to see:
a) those formulas are truly "better"....
b) Amsoil not tweeking their formula....
The fact is no one here (that posts) actually knows what the Amsoil formula changes are.
15 years ago, yeah maybe from a 15,000 foot, G-man level the formulas are similar in name. But I'll bet there are at least one or two compounds in the base oil of Amsoil that M1 didn't use.....and in the add pack as well.
a) those formulas are truly "better"....
b) Amsoil not tweeking their formula....
The fact is no one here (that posts) actually knows what the Amsoil formula changes are.
15 years ago, yeah maybe from a 15,000 foot, G-man level the formulas are similar in name. But I'll bet there are at least one or two compounds in the base oil of Amsoil that M1 didn't use.....and in the add pack as well.
Getting back to the original question. Conoco Phillips is the most forward of the big 3 American companies for getting out a conventionally priced oil that meets GF4.
Personally, I don't see how putting anything on Wally Worlds shelf makes it a better product. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Not in the least but, it gets it into the public's eye..I had never heard of AMS until I came here,not that that means alot but, I have been changing my oil since I was sixteen and I bought my oil by perusing the shelves of auto parts and department store shelves...Throw some AMS,RP,LE or whatever and it may just blossom.????Just my .02....
Not in the least but, it gets it into the public's eye..I had never heard of AMS until I came here,not that that means alot but, I have been changing my oil since I was sixteen and I bought my oil by perusing the shelves of auto parts and department store shelves...Throw some AMS,RP,LE or whatever and it may just blossom.????Just my .02....
Phillips Conoco refines far more oil than does any other oil company so in that respect they are the leader. In my opinion, Phillips probably does the best job of any of the majors at cleaning and purifying oil before its refined. We have a billion dollar oil filtration system put in place called an Aards Unit at our local refinery and it can take the dirtiest nastiest oil and clean it to exacting standards before its refined. I doubt that many other oil refiners are exploring refining processes like Phillips.
Honestly, in the 80s and 90s few oil companies made money in refining and marketing and the big money came from E & P which is exploration and production. It was pretty rare for a company to upgrade and improve their refining capabilities and Phillips was one that didnt abandon the industry. They bought out Tosco and Conoco and became the nations largest refiner. Others such as Exxon find, produce, and sell more crude oil but Phillips is #1 in refining oil into products like gasoline, motor oil, plastics, etc...
So if size matters, capacity and ability matter, then Phillips is #1. Id put Phillips ability to produce and sell a clean basestock up with anybody.
Smaller boutique oils like Amsoil, Royal Purple, and Redline seem to concentrate on high quality products rather than quantity and perhaps they would be good products for your car. Many experts on these boards can give better advice. Certainly state of the art additives do matter.
Honestly, who cares about marketing policies. If you go to AutoZone then they mark up their products so they can make a profit when they sell them to you. If you buy from an Amsoil dealer then he markes up his products so he can sell them to you. If you pay a fee and become an Amsoil dealer then you can buy at wholesale. If you want to buy a lot of Amsoil products then it seems like a good idea to be a dealer and if not then just buy it from an Amsoil dealer and let the guy make a profit just like Autozone does.
Im not saying that Amsoil is the best product or isnt but why complain how its marketed. It seems like everybody allows stores to make some money but nobody wants to allow a little garage dealer carrying Amsoil to do the same.
If you like Amsoil then use it and if you dont then dont use it.
Amsoil wasnt going to market their products at Wal-Mart next to .88 cent Supertech oil so Amsoil had to explore other marketing ideas to get their products distributed. For $30 or $50 or whatever you can be a dealer and buy at wholesale and that seems like a good deal to me if you use lots of their products. And if you dont then whats the harm in letting a garage type dealer make a buck or two.
Just one mans opinion I guess.
Happy Motoring,
Bugshu
Honestly, in the 80s and 90s few oil companies made money in refining and marketing and the big money came from E & P which is exploration and production. It was pretty rare for a company to upgrade and improve their refining capabilities and Phillips was one that didnt abandon the industry. They bought out Tosco and Conoco and became the nations largest refiner. Others such as Exxon find, produce, and sell more crude oil but Phillips is #1 in refining oil into products like gasoline, motor oil, plastics, etc...
So if size matters, capacity and ability matter, then Phillips is #1. Id put Phillips ability to produce and sell a clean basestock up with anybody.
Smaller boutique oils like Amsoil, Royal Purple, and Redline seem to concentrate on high quality products rather than quantity and perhaps they would be good products for your car. Many experts on these boards can give better advice. Certainly state of the art additives do matter.
Honestly, who cares about marketing policies. If you go to AutoZone then they mark up their products so they can make a profit when they sell them to you. If you buy from an Amsoil dealer then he markes up his products so he can sell them to you. If you pay a fee and become an Amsoil dealer then you can buy at wholesale. If you want to buy a lot of Amsoil products then it seems like a good idea to be a dealer and if not then just buy it from an Amsoil dealer and let the guy make a profit just like Autozone does.
Im not saying that Amsoil is the best product or isnt but why complain how its marketed. It seems like everybody allows stores to make some money but nobody wants to allow a little garage dealer carrying Amsoil to do the same.
If you like Amsoil then use it and if you dont then dont use it.
Amsoil wasnt going to market their products at Wal-Mart next to .88 cent Supertech oil so Amsoil had to explore other marketing ideas to get their products distributed. For $30 or $50 or whatever you can be a dealer and buy at wholesale and that seems like a good deal to me if you use lots of their products. And if you dont then whats the harm in letting a garage type dealer make a buck or two.
Just one mans opinion I guess.
Happy Motoring,
Bugshu
Glad to see more industry insiders on this board.
Niether of these brands are companies anymore. I would agree that Royal Dutch Shell, owner of Pennzoil and BP, owner of Castrol, are up there in research.
ChevronTexaco
ConocoPhillips (incuding "76" lubricants)
ExxonMobil
PetroCanada
Are all top contenders. My nod goes to ChevronTexaco because they do not only base oils but the additives as well.
You're wrong on both counts. Shell bought an oil company when they bought Pennzoil. Pennzoil's blending facilities, etc. are still intact and operating to produce Pennzoil motor oil.
BP bought an oil company when they bought Castrol. Castrol's blending facilities, etc. are still inatct and operating to produce Castrol motor oil.
The purchase of Pennzoil and Castrol was not like the purchase of Havoline by ChevronTexaco. In that deal, all the parent company got was the rights to the name "Havoline."
MolaKule
Staff member
I think Shell/Pennzoil could lead the way if they applied their extensive research from the last four years, some examples being their PIO and GTL technologies.
I think we will see each major (and some minor) companies introducing new technologies.
"Leap-frogging" is the term that comes to mind when thinking in terms of real technology and advances in lubricants.
Don't rule out some of the small(er) and private players when it comes to advanced technologies; they can get their products to market much faster than the big guys.
The real exciting areas of technology, IMHO, will be the greater inclusion of bio-oils in future formulations. But don't expect the major API players to introduce these advanced formulations in this arena.
I think we will see each major (and some minor) companies introducing new technologies.
"Leap-frogging" is the term that comes to mind when thinking in terms of real technology and advances in lubricants.
Don't rule out some of the small(er) and private players when it comes to advanced technologies; they can get their products to market much faster than the big guys.
The real exciting areas of technology, IMHO, will be the greater inclusion of bio-oils in future formulations. But don't expect the major API players to introduce these advanced formulations in this arena.
The big boys formulate on price and not quality. Their incentive is to make the product cost them the least while meeting the minimum requirements. Just because they make the basestocks and additive packages doesn't mean they use the best basestocks and additives for their API products.
The smaller players in the boutique oil market are the ones requesting the better additive packages and the more expensive basestocks. They are the ones actually formulating the better oils.
I expect things to change as motorist become more aware of the benefits of better oils and the big guys pick up on it. More high performance cars and trucks mean an increase in use of higher quality oils. that along with european manufacturers specifying synthetic is causing an increase in use of synthetics, group III, and boutique oils. I believe that the big guys will follow Mobils lead and could care less about what the boutique blenders are doing.
MolaKule
Staff member
Are we speaking quality or quantity?
Quality (private, boutique) formulators could use bio-oils that the big guys can't or do not want to supply.
Quality doesn't equate to the quantity of raw materials produced. (say that 5 times)
What I am saying is that the Amsoil and the other dont have the ability to create proprietary and unique base oils and additives the way Mobil does. They basicly can use only what the oil companies will sell them.
As G-man alluded to these small blenders are behind when it comes to base oils and additive chemistry. Amsoils approach of dumping more old tech additives into the blend and in doing so not complying with standards is a ham fisted approach dont you think? I would infact say the technology wise Mobil is far a head of Amsoil. BTW I am only using Mobil and Amsoil as a example and dont intend to start a uprising.
As G-man alluded to these small blenders are behind when it comes to base oils and additive chemistry. Amsoils approach of dumping more old tech additives into the blend and in doing so not complying with standards is a ham fisted approach dont you think? I would infact say the technology wise Mobil is far a head of Amsoil. BTW I am only using Mobil and Amsoil as a example and dont intend to start a uprising.
I agree with Blano and Molekule. But to Amsoil's advantage, they can build an oil to their liking, and not cater to the API. Plus they can use better additives and not worry as much about price so it's a mix. So the private guys can build a better oil. Your right though, Mobil makes their own base oils and additives and has a big advantage their. Plus they are heavily involved in racing and that real world experience adds to it too.
And they probably have something new cooking in the kitchen as we ... type
Look at that newest 11k interval with only 600ppm of phos . TBN still 3.1 . They have them an additive pack that works , for sure
MolaKule
Staff member
I hear what you're saying Blano, in terms of big bucks for research. And no doubt, Mobil has one of the best large market OTC synthetics.
However, Mobil is no longer the major player in PAO's and Group V's. And specialty additive companies are cropping up all the time to provide the smaller formulator with quality additives and add packages.
All I am saying, IMHO, is not to discosunt the smaller players, in that the samller players have quality products out there, they just don't have the huge advertising budgets the big guys have.
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