Which WIX to use?

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
In the most accepted filtration nomenclature it would be

Beta2=7
Beta20=28


Correction (see what I mean river_rat?)


That's how you would read it in WIX's manner

The most accepted nomenclature is

Beta7=2
Beta28=20


The basic trick is that efficiency levels tend to be uniform (but not always) while particle sizes can be all over the place.

There are specific filter spec's that are at specific um levels ..and in those applications ..the Beta numbers can be odd and even fractional.

 

[EMPIRE]

the 51085 has the better beta #'s. if all else fits and the pressures are the same, choose the one that has better beta.

however, do not expect the bigger 51085 to last longer than the other because the bigger filter has better beta and thus will trap more crud, so the offset in size is accomodated by the beta differences, etc.

 

[doitmyself]

So, according to Gary and Empire, the 51085 has better beta #'s. According to the OP, the 51085 crosses with the OEM filter.

I am still curious why WIX changed from the 2006 recommendation of 51085 to the 2007 recommendation of the 51348 (same engine/engine vin code) on this Caravan.

Please robl, call WIX on Monday morning, get their answer, and then share it with us.

 

[Gary Allan]

There may be installations where the smaller filter is advantageous and they want to reduce part numbers on the assembly line. It would mean one less skid (we saw this with MotorCraft shortening the filters a bit) per so many hours of a running line.

Blame a bean counter. They're usually a good choice to dump on. They're always first on my list of usual suspects. 2nd are engineers that need to justify their existence by naming something in their own image, just because they can ..and whether or not it actually does something productive.

When many of those types stand there in prideful joy ..saying, "look what I've done." ...I really think that a few could reply, "Oh, YOU'RE THE ONE!!!" and perform a beat down on them with a camshaft.

 

[SuperBusa]

Humm ...

 

[doitmyself]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
There may be installations where the smaller filter is advantageous and they want to reduce part numbers on the assembly line. It would mean one less skid (we saw this with MotorCraft shortening the filters a bit) per so many hours of a running line.


Whose assembly line??? Wix???? In this case the OEM filter has not changed (according to the OP). Wix has changed it's filter recommendation. I think Wix has goofed.

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
There may be installations where the smaller filter is advantageous and they want to reduce part numbers on the assembly line. It would mean one less skid (we saw this with MotorCraft shortening the filters a bit) per so many hours of a running line.


Whose assembly line??? Wix???? In this case the OEM filter has not changed (according to the OP). Wix has changed it's filter recommendation. I think Wix has goofed.


Well, Fram's too. The PH3614 is recommended for ALL 2007 ..while only for the 2.4 4 banger for 2006.

That's why I think it's an OEM evolution. It's just not been retro'd to other years with like drivetrains.

 

[Gary Allan]

2007
>>

scroll up or down a year
2007 DODGE TRUCK Caravan V6-3.3L F/inj. (R)

Click on a part number from the list below to view the details.


Engine PartSeq Part Type Part Note
V6-3.3L F/inj. (R) 020 EXTRAGUARD PH3614
040 TOUGHGUARD TG3614
060 DOUBLEGUARD DG3614
090 EXTENDEDGUARD XG3614
100 HIGHMILEAGE HM3614

2007
>>

scroll up or down a year
2007 DODGE TRUCK Caravan V6-3.8L F/inj. (L)

Click on a part number from the list below to view the details.


Engine PartSeq Part Type Part Note
V6-3.8L F/inj. (L) 020 EXTRAGUARD PH3614
040 TOUGHGUARD TG3614
060 DOUBLEGUARD DG3614
090 EXTENDEDGUARD XG3614
100 HIGHMILEAGE HM3614

For 2006

2006
>>

scroll up or down a year
2006 DODGE TRUCK Caravan - All -

Click on a part number from the list below to view the details.


Engine PartSeq Part Type Part Note
4-2.4L F/inj. (16V) DOHC (B) 020 EXTRAGUARD PH3614
040 TOUGHGUARD TG3614
060 DOUBLEGUARD DG3614
090 EXTENDEDGUARD XG3614
100 HIGHMILEAGE HM3614
V6-3.3L F/inj. (R) ; V6-3.3L F/inj. Flex Fuel (3) ; V6-3.3L F/inj. Flex Fuel (G) ; V6-3.8L F/inj. (L) 020 EXTRAGUARD PH16
040 TOUGHGUARD TG16
060 DOUBLEGUARD DG16
090 EXTENDEDGUARD XG16
100 HIGHMILEAGE HM16

 

[EMPIRE]

CORRECTION CORRECTION, i have to correct my post.....

the 51348 has better beta !!!

to make it simple, the beta test measure trapped vs got-by.

as example, 2/20=20/40 means the following:

for 2u particles for every 20 trapped 1 got by.
for 20u particles for every 40 trapped 1 got by.
this is Beta. the efficiency is a calulation using Beta (as shown in some earlier posts).

so using the ratios 20:1 and 40:1 we get some efficiency relevance:
20/21 * 100 = 95.2%
40/41 * 100 = 97.56%

 

[Gary Allan]

Unless you're wording it in an unusual way (I do it all the time) ..this is not correct.

2/20=Low/and not as low

lower is better in the "lower(s)" ..

 

[EMPIRE]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan

Unless you're wording it in an unusual way (I do it all the time) ..this is not correct.

2/20=Low/and not as low

lower is better in the "lower(s)" ..


not in the way WIX reports it. there are several methods to obtain Beta, and i believe i am correct in that WIX reports the ratio of particles trapped -to- particles that got by. they normalize the "got by" to 1 so that efficiency can be easily calculated as i described.

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: EMPIRE


as example, 2/20=20/40 means the following:

for 2u particles for every 20 trapped 1 got by.
for 20u particles for every 40 trapped 1 got by.
this is Beta. the efficiency is a calulation using Beta (as shown in some earlier posts).


Nope ... what it really means is shown below:

2/20=20/40 means

Beta 2/20 = 50% efficient at trapping 20 microns and larger.
Beta 20/40 = 95% efficient at trapping 40 microns and larger.

See how I've colored coded the number pairs ... those are the matching pairs (red to red, and blue to blue).

See that Beta info chart river_rat posted on page 2.

Originally Posted By: river_rat

Simply put, 2/20=15/28 means that at 2 micron particles, 1/15th of them get through and at 20 micron particles, 1/28th of them get through


That's not right either. What it really means is:

Beta 2/15 = 50% efficient at trapping 15 microns and larger.
Beta 20/28 = 95% efficient at trapping 28 microns and larger.

 

[EMPIRE]

Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: EMPIRE


as example, 2/20=20/40 means the following:

for 2u particles for every 20 trapped 1 got by.
for 20u particles for every 40 trapped 1 got by.
this is Beta. the efficiency is a calulation using Beta (as shown in some earlier posts).


Nope ... what it really means is:

2/20=20/40 means

Beta 2/20 = 50% efficient at trapping 20 microns and larger.
Beta 20/40 = 95% efficient at trapping 40 microns and larger.

See how I've colored the numbers ... those are the matching pairs (red to red, and blue to blue).

See that Beta info chart river_rat posted on page 2.


this doesnt make sense because then what you are saying is that for every filter WIX makes they changed the particle size for every Beta test??? no they did not, they use a constant particle size of 2u and 20u for every filter test. it is the ratio (aka Beta #'s after the "=") that changes for every filter.

so what you saying is every filter is rated 50% and 90%? that doesnt make sense.

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: EMPIRE
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: EMPIRE


as example, 2/20=20/40 means the following:

for 2u particles for every 20 trapped 1 got by.
for 20u particles for every 40 trapped 1 got by.
this is Beta. the efficiency is a calulation using Beta (as shown in some earlier posts).


Nope ... what it really means is:

2/20=20/40 means

Beta 2/20 = 50% efficient at trapping 20 microns and larger.
Beta 20/40 = 95% efficient at trapping 40 microns and larger.

See how I've colored the numbers ... those are the matching pairs (red to red, and blue to blue).

See that Beta info chart river_rat posted on page 2.


this doesnt make sense because then what you are saying is that for every filter WIX makes they changed the particle size for every Beta test??? no they did not, they use a constant particle size of 2u and 20u for every filter test. it is the ratio (aka Beta #'s after the "=") that changes for every filter.


No, I think they tell you the particle size where it is 50% (Beta Ratio 2) effiecent, and what particle size it is 95% effiecent (Beta Ratio 2). As Gary said, not all the filter manufactures use the same Beta Ratio format ... so it gets confusing. Call or email WIX, and I'll bet it's like I've described above.

 

[EMPIRE]

Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: EMPIRE
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: EMPIRE


as example, 2/20=20/40 means the following:

for 2u particles for every 20 trapped 1 got by.
for 20u particles for every 40 trapped 1 got by.
this is Beta. the efficiency is a calulation using Beta (as shown in some earlier posts).


Nope ... what it really means is:

2/20=20/40 means

Beta 2/20 = 50% efficient at trapping 20 microns and larger.
Beta 20/40 = 95% efficient at trapping 40 microns and larger.

See how I've colored the numbers ... those are the matching pairs (red to red, and blue to blue).

See that Beta info chart river_rat posted on page 2.


this doesnt make sense because then what you are saying is that for every filter WIX makes they changed the particle size for every Beta test??? no they did not, they use a constant particle size of 2u and 20u for every filter test. it is the ratio (aka Beta #'s after the "=") that changes for every filter.


No, I think they tell you the particle size where it is 50% (Beta 2) effiecent, and what particle size it is 95% effiecent (Beta 2).


then why would there be a chart of Beta. if it was always 50% and 95% then we wouldnt need a chart of Beta.

the #'s next to the Beta symbol are particle sizes!! and if you notice the #'s after the "=" are the Beta #'s on the chart !!

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: EMPIRE
... then why would there be a chart of Beta. if it was always 50% and 95% then we wouldnt need a chart of Beta.

the #'s next to the Beta symbol are particle sizes!!


Because the chart covers more than Beta 2 and Beta 20 - Beta Ratio tells you the percentage of effiecency performance ... and the particle size is matched to each Beta Ratio as shown above. The format is different sometimes, so it's tricky to see it sometimes. The Beta ratio (chart info above) is used for any kind of filter, just not oil filters ... so some filters may report Beta Ratio way up near the 100% limit (Beta 1000).

The example in the chart is exactly how WIX is showing it (format wise).

 

[EMPIRE]

Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: EMPIRE
... then why would there be a chart of Beta. if it was always 50% and 95% then we wouldnt need a chart of Beta.

the #'s next to the Beta symbol are particle sizes!!


Because the chart covers more than Beta 2 and Beta 20 - Beta Ratio tells you the percentage effiecency to filter. The Beta ratio (chart info above) is used for any kind of filter, just not oil filters.


i agree with the posted chart, what i am saying is that WIX reports the ratio of particles trapped to 1 particle getting by, its their testing method.

so when WIX says 2/20=10/30
for 2u the efficiency is 10/11 * 100 = 90.9%
for 20u the efficiency is 30/31 * 100 = 96.7%

now look on the chart for beta "10" and beta "30"

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: EMPIRE
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: EMPIRE
... then why would there be a chart of Beta. if it was always 50% and 95% then we wouldnt need a chart of Beta.

the #'s next to the Beta symbol are particle sizes!!


Because the chart covers more than Beta 2 and Beta 20 - Beta Ratio tells you the percentage effiecency to filter. The Beta ratio (chart info above) is used for any kind of filter, just not oil filters.


i agree with the posted chart, what i am saying is that WIX reports the ratio of particles trapped to 1 particle getting by.

so when WIX says 2/20=10/30
for 2u the efficiency is 10/11 * 100 = 90.9%
for 20u the efficiency is 30/31 * 100 = 96.7%

now look on the chart for beta "10" and beta "30"



Again ... don't think so. The "2/20" on the left side of the "=" is the Beta ratio 2 (50%) and 20 (95%). The "10/30" on the right side of "=" are the matching particle sizes in microns.

It's just like the example in the chart.

Chart shows Beta 2/20/75 = 5/10/20

Your WIX is showing:
2/20 = 10/30

See the pattern? Read the text in that Beta chart carefully.

If WIX is using this somewhat standard Beta format to mean what you're saying, then they are misleading anyone who's use to looking at Beta Ratios. Call or email them to get the real story, and let us know.

Were has WIX said they use Beta Ratios the way you claim?

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: EMPIRE

so when WIX says 2/20=10/30
for 2u the efficiency is 10/11 * 100 = 90.9%
for 20u the efficiency is 30/31 * 100 = 96.7%


NO WIX oil filter is 90.9% efficient at filtering 2 micron particles. Something is not adding up ...

 

[EMPIRE]

Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: EMPIRE
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: EMPIRE
... then why would there be a chart of Beta. if it was always 50% and 95% then we wouldnt need a chart of Beta.

the #'s next to the Beta symbol are particle sizes!!


Because the chart covers more than Beta 2 and Beta 20 - Beta Ratio tells you the percentage effiecency to filter. The Beta ratio (chart info above) is used for any kind of filter, just not oil filters.


i agree with the posted chart, what i am saying is that WIX reports the ratio of particles trapped to 1 particle getting by.

so when WIX says 2/20=10/30
for 2u the efficiency is 10/11 * 100 = 90.9%
for 20u the efficiency is 30/31 * 100 = 96.7%

now look on the chart for beta "10" and beta "30"



Again ... don't think so. The "2/20" on the left side of the "=" is the Beta ratio 2 (50%) and 20 (95%). The "10/30" on the right side of "=" are the matching particle sizes in microns.

It's just like the example in the chart.

Chart shows Beta 2/20/75 = 5/10/20

Your WIX is showing:
2/20=10/30

See the pattern? Read the text in that Beta chart carefully.

If WIX is using this somewhat standard Beta format to mean what you're saying, then they are misleading anyone who's use to looking at Beta Ratios. Call or email them to get the real story, and let us know.

Were has WIX said they use Beta Ratios the way you claim?


nah, i think you are reading the chart info wrong. notice the 1st "B" statement in the text, the particle sizes are subscript (which indicates "B" as a function of particle size), while the 2nd "B" statement the #'s next to "B" are normal text and the #'s have been swapped around the "=". thats the diff, and they mean exact same thing, but in both cases the particle sizes are the same and are 5u 10u and 20u.

WIX uses the 1st "B" statement in their filter data, always, the 1st ratio of 2/20 means 2u and 20u particles. you cannot fix the efficiency to 50 and 90% and then try and compare filter abilities by varying the particle sizes.