Which Synthetics use group IV base stock?

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1,808
Location
South Carolina
What are real synthetics?

He's still living in the 90s and thinks PAO is the only real synthetic. Group III has better solvency, additive response, and P-V coefficient than PAO in the conditions seen by a daily driver while being far cheaper. Unless you're at -40°F or >300°F, there's no advantage to using PAO over Group III within the typical use of a daily commuter.
 

4WD

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16,804
Location
Texas
Base-stocks make base oil.
So if Warren “synthetic“ was 80% Grp3 + 20% Grp2 (in the base oil) would you know?

P66 does not even move from hydro processing to cracking at Grp3
 

4WD

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16,804
Location
Texas
Or perhaps marketing did a good job convincing general population that Group3 is cheaper and better than Group4.
I think the integrated oil companies and filter makers were giving us long lasting products
But, IMO, engine designers need to get a grip on fuel dilution and cheap induction parts to support more and more vehicles making 10k the new 5k like we made 5k the new 3k …

I have no issue doing 10k in our NA 2.0L Fusion … but Ford says we can go 9k in that stressed out 2.3L TDI?
Dunno about that …
 
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2,582
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GoVols
Not marketing but rather data from hundreds of trials comparing the two. NASCAR engines, which operate at 280*F sump temp and 350*F bearing temps, use a 0w-20 oil that's majority group III. Let that sink in for a minute.
I’ve always want to know what’s actually in the sump of those engines. Do see many oil related issues anymore
 
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137
I’m on
Not marketing but rather data from hundreds of trials comparing the two. NASCAR engines, which operate at 280*F sump temp and 350*F bearing temps, use a 0w-20 oil that's majority group III. Let that sink in for a minute.
NASCAR engines running 0w-20? Hmn....
So they have data that group3 base oil can perform good with right additives, does not make it superior
 
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1,808
Location
South Carolina
I’m on

NASCAR engines running 0w-20? Hmn....
So they have data that group3 base oil can perform good with right additives, does not make it superior

It's a light 0w-20 to a heavy 0w-16 (KV100 = ~7.8 cSt). It actually does perform superior to PAO with less valvetrain and cylinder wear attributed to better additive response with the group III base oil. We're talking about the highest budget racing programs in the US if not the world. These guys spending hundreds of thousands researching ways to gain a 0.5 hp advantage. If there was an advantage to using a majority PAO base oil, they'd be using it.

Here's an article in Machinery Lubrication detailing how group III base oils are rivaling PAO in many areas and superior in some areas.

"A modern Group III oil can actually outperform a PAO in several areas important to lubricants, such as additive solubility, lubricity and antiwear performance. Group III base oils can now rival PAO stocks in pour point, viscosity index and oxidation stability performance."

 
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1,740
Location
Muncie, Indiana
But besides the group 4 pao's aforementioned advantages, I believe it has another and that is it's "long drain" suitability. Never heard of GTL being mentioned in that light even if it were stuffed with a 12 TBN.
Nope, Mobil1 0w40 is like 3:1 GTL and PAO and it meets Porsche A40 which is a long drain interval spec.
 
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2,565
Location
WY
I think that the hardest specifications to achieve dictate the ingredients. The Euro oils seem to be priciest and hard to find at the local auto parts stores. The Mercedes/Porsche/Audi/BMW specifications. What these oils use for their base chemistries would be interesting to know, fully. I think high dollar, high revving, high heat race engines use predominately group IV/V in their sumps. Maybe something else for qualifying. I wouldn't want to risk a $100,000 engine on a group III that can't withstand the heat extremes of a Group IV. That's my take away. I don't see the Nascar/Indycar/F1/NHRA haulers pulling up to the local PepBoy's for their oil. I doubt they are paying $15 a gallon for whatever they do use either.
 
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1,740
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Muncie, Indiana
But racing engines aren't built to last as long as street cars, they tend to run the easiest pumping oil that provides just enough protection to keep the engine running for one or a few races so only in the 10s of hours at most, whereas passenger car oil is expected to keep the engine running for thousands of hours before being rebuilt or scrapped. So yeah they're using oil that may have specially formulated for their team for that specific race but racing oil is in no way comparable to standard passenger car oil. A lot of the Euro 5W40 oils seem to be getting by without PAO or only a small amount of it 10-20%, Castrol 5W40 seems to be all hydroprocessed crude oil and it still carries porsche A40, MB229.5, and BMW LL-01. On 0w40 Mobil seems to be getting away with 10-20% PAO and using mostly GTL, I don't know if the PAO is needed for oxidative stability or to be able to keep it under 10% volatility.

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249
Location
Toronto
How much does raw PAO actually cost to make. seeing how XOM makes it themselves it's probably pretty cheap to make compared to botique oil companies that have to purchase their base oils from XOM and then pay for additives and still have to make a profit while selling a much lower volume.
Unless it's predatory pricing to drive out competition or enter a new market, no one sells products at a loss, especially the big oil companies. Xon has the resources to sell at low prices and make profits if they wish.

Edit: quoted wrong reply, was suppose to quote another chap.
 

57_Chevy_Thunder

Thread starter
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32
Location
Wyoming
It's a light 0w-20 to a heavy 0w-16 (KV100 = ~7.8 cSt). It actually does perform superior to PAO with less valvetrain and cylinder wear attributed to better additive response with the group III base oil. We're talking about the highest budget racing programs in the US if not the world. These guys spending hundreds of thousands researching ways to gain a 0.5 hp advantage. If there was an advantage to using a majority PAO base oil, they'd be using it.

Here's an article in Machinery Lubrication detailing how group III base oils are rivaling PAO in many areas and superior in some areas.

"A modern Group III oil can actually outperform a PAO in several areas important to lubricants, such as additive solubility, lubricity and antiwear performance. Group III base oils can now rival PAO stocks in pour point, viscosity index and oxidation stability performance."

Excellent material !! (re: post 48) -and considering that article in Machinery Lubrication was over 17 years ago, I'd have to think that base oil development is even further advanced today. It would be great to see them update that article !!

Regarding post #54, your statement "--racing oil is in no way comparable to standard passenger car oil" is so totally true, and certainly a fact that we should always remember. Granted, it is very interesting to learn what they are using, which is certainly critical to their success, but you are totally correct that our standard passenger car application is so extremely different, which at the very least requires an entirely different additive package. But it does make interesting reading, none-the-less.

I have always found the articles on the Machinery Lubrication website very interesting. -thanks to all who share them.

And thanks to each person on this BITOG website who takes the time to make useful, decent, responsible replies.
 
Messages
2,565
Location
WY
Excellent material !! (re: post 48) -and considering that article in Machinery Lubrication was over 17 years ago, I'd have to think that base oil development is even further advanced today. It would be great to see them update that article !!

Regarding post #54, your statement "--racing oil is in no way comparable to standard passenger car oil" is so totally true, and certainly a fact that we should always remember. Granted, it is very interesting to learn what they are using, which is certainly critical to their success, but you are totally correct that our standard passenger car application is so extremely different, which at the very least requires an entirely different additive package. But it does make interesting reading, none-the-less.

I have always found the articles on the Machinery Lubrication website very interesting. -thanks to all who share them.

And thanks to each person on this BITOG website who takes the time to make useful, decent, responsible replies.
When I wander the pits at the NHRA fuel cars and look, it seems that the oil used by major teams is a secret. Plain jugs with a slap on sticker of their oil sponsor. Nothing ever directly poured in the oil tank from factory packaging except Red Line on a few teams. Racing is strange that way. Seeing the water and oil temperature of a NASCAR engine at Talladega with their closed off front ends in August for 500 miles in 98F temperatures leads me to believe that if there isn't any or very little Group III oil in the car. 500 miles in an engine producing from 2.4 to 200 horsepower per cubic inch is not relatable to highway miles on a passenger vehicle. Rebuild after every round in fuel cars. Refresh after every race for top Nascar team engines. Yeah, I imagine they are using PAO/POE and a dash of carrier group in their cars. Nobody can bring the evidence otherwise so it is hearsay. I do believe the pro stocks are using a pretty standard hydrocracked low viscosity oil in their cars though as evidenced by one of our board members that creates oil for some NHRA pro stock teams. Maybe he will chime in. I would like to hear if Group III has surpassed Group IV in objective testing and in which categories other than solvency.
 
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