I stand by my claim that 99% of the current market of engines don't require synthetic oils. "True synthetic" was what this post was about, I didn't call it a true synthetic or not merely replying to a question as to why some people are asking what a true synthetic is. I don't see why when someone ask a question about a synthetic it comes up as the oil makers business as to what someone needs ? If it's a huge burden for you about what is a true synthetic verses the group III then try to educate as many as you can, however if it makes you really upset when someone says true synthetic I think you will battle a lost cause. I myself don't care what it's called, and I doubt I have ever used a "real synthetic" so your preaching to the wrong one doodfood. With the 5w-20 I don't think 5w-20's need to be deemed synthetic just because they are 5w-20, I do think that oil standards have now come to be in present times because of the vast use of 5w-20. Also synthetic is pushed on this site as being needed to keep your engine clean, for the extra protection it offers, and for longer drain intervals, and some way as being cheaper by extending drain intervals. I find that none of these are true, and the offering extra protection is a real burden for me so I try to educate people as finding out how they can use the extra protection before jumping on the bandwagon. I use synthetic myself in a engine not required to... so don't think I'm a conventional freak I just see so many times things being posted with the whole synthetic verses conventional, then I see your point to you add the synthetic verses real synthetic information just gets lost in the abyss.
Which M1 oils are "true" synthetics?
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Well I guess I can't speak for you, but I think I'll take the API's word over Valvoline's and Castrol's.
I think I'll also draw my own conclusions from the facts that:
1. Auto makers did not immediately drop their Mobil 1 endorsements for Valvoline or Castrol.
2. Nothing happened in court, as it should have if the claim were true.
Either this was an issue that arose and then was quickly fixed, or it was a fluke and everyone moved on. Either way, not a problem worth worrying about.
I think I'll also draw my own conclusions from the facts that:
1. Auto makers did not immediately drop their Mobil 1 endorsements for Valvoline or Castrol.
2. Nothing happened in court, as it should have if the claim were true.
Either this was an issue that arose and then was quickly fixed, or it was a fluke and everyone moved on. Either way, not a problem worth worrying about.
I don't think anyone took the claim that it fails API/SEQ test. I assume Mobil 1 corrected a problem they had with their oil as well, but that's assuming only because API said so... not Mobil 1. It's not worth worrying over maybe..however I do think it has hurt Mobil 1 oils overall when 8x, 4x less wear was all over commercials etc.. They may have even been on the oil bottles that I'm not sure of, but my point is the advertising hurt Mobil 1.
I will also draw my own conclusions, if Mobil 1 had been in the right, and Castrol/Valvoline lied then something would have happened in court as well..
Maybe Exxon Mobil lawyers thought that doing nothing while other oil companies slander their hard earned name was the best approach.
I will also draw my own conclusions, if Mobil 1 had been in the right, and Castrol/Valvoline lied then something would have happened in court as well..
Maybe Exxon Mobil lawyers thought that doing nothing while other oil companies slander their hard earned name was the best approach.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I'll never understand the basis for these complaints and the argument.
....
It's a cost/price issue; why are you paying MORE for a product that IS NOT what it states on the label? The product would surely be long drain capable if it was formulated with POE, AN + ?? and PAO with the proper add pack. A real Syn might still have tradeoffs to dino in wear, but at least it would be a Syn and you would be paying the extra $$ for the added cost of the basestock, not to a fattened profit stream. Buy Euro Syn oil, then you know what your getting. The current American Market Fake Syns could be called "ultra=premium conventional" and be priced in the middle ground between conventional and real synthetic. This whole syn/ dino labeling issue is a travesty, inarguable, and I suggest BP and any other co-conspirators should be tarred and feathered and ridden out of town on a rail for what they've done. That this is allowed to continue in our market place speaks volumes to the deviousness of the major oil co's and complacency and idiocy of of the American Population.
I'll never understand the basis for these complaints and the argument.
....
It's a cost/price issue; why are you paying MORE for a product that IS NOT what it states on the label? The product would surely be long drain capable if it was formulated with POE, AN + ?? and PAO with the proper add pack. A real Syn might still have tradeoffs to dino in wear, but at least it would be a Syn and you would be paying the extra $$ for the added cost of the basestock, not to a fattened profit stream. Buy Euro Syn oil, then you know what your getting. The current American Market Fake Syns could be called "ultra=premium conventional" and be priced in the middle ground between conventional and real synthetic. This whole syn/ dino labeling issue is a travesty, inarguable, and I suggest BP and any other co-conspirators should be tarred and feathered and ridden out of town on a rail for what they've done. That this is allowed to continue in our market place speaks volumes to the deviousness of the major oil co's and complacency and idiocy of of the American Population.
From what I've read here it seems that the true or best synthetics
are optimized poly ester based. And that this base oil itself
maximizes cleaning and lubrication as opposed to just relying on
the addpack. I'm not sure if this makes a difference in an average
Joe's like me application. I'd like to try it though some day just
for kicks.
are optimized poly ester based. And that this base oil itself
maximizes cleaning and lubrication as opposed to just relying on
the addpack. I'm not sure if this makes a difference in an average
Joe's like me application. I'd like to try it though some day just
for kicks.
Originally Posted By: stenerson
From what I've read here it seems that the true or best synthetics
are optimized poly ester based. And that this base oil itself
maximizes cleaning and lubrication as opposed to just relying on
the addpack. I'm not sure if this makes a difference in an average
Joe's like me application. I'd like to try it though some day just
for kicks.
Sounds like you've been into Red Line's marketing material.
That's just one approach. There are others.
From what I've read here it seems that the true or best synthetics
are optimized poly ester based. And that this base oil itself
maximizes cleaning and lubrication as opposed to just relying on
the addpack. I'm not sure if this makes a difference in an average
Joe's like me application. I'd like to try it though some day just
for kicks.
Sounds like you've been into Red Line's marketing material.
That's just one approach. There are others.
I dont think the jump in price is that much....I see single quart prices of off the shelf group 3 processed mineral oil{dynthetics to most people} going for 6-8 dollars per quart...and redline can be had for 9 per quart without much difficulty....
Originally Posted By: qship1996
I dont think the jump in price is that much....I see single quart prices of off the shelf group 3 processed mineral oil{dynthetics to most people} going for 6-8 dollars per quart...and redline can be had for 9 per quart without much difficulty....
True. But most here save by buying Walmart 5 quart jugs. So I
can get even top of the line "fake synthetics" like PU and
m1 EP for about 5.50 a quart. I've never seen redline for less
han 9.99. That's almost double. But I'm sure there are some
deals out there.
I dont think the jump in price is that much....I see single quart prices of off the shelf group 3 processed mineral oil{dynthetics to most people} going for 6-8 dollars per quart...and redline can be had for 9 per quart without much difficulty....
True. But most here save by buying Walmart 5 quart jugs. So I
can get even top of the line "fake synthetics" like PU and
m1 EP for about 5.50 a quart. I've never seen redline for less
han 9.99. That's almost double. But I'm sure there are some
deals out there.
Originally Posted By: stenerson
From what I've read here it seems that the true or best synthetics are optimized poly ester based.
The word "best" can mean a lot of things.
Poly olesters are used in jet engines and turbines because they are very polar and withstand high heat.
That may not mean much in an automobile engine.
They are harder to formulate such that they don't destroy the elastomers in an automobile engine and they aren't all that wonderful when it comes to dealing with moisture in the oil.
Since the oils you see on the parts store shelf are the result of balancing price, performance, and lube stock availability, relatively few are poly olster-based and I have not seen a diester-based one in a number of years.
You can formulate a motor oil with a Group III+ or PAO that will provide performance such that the last thing to fail in your car is the engine.
From what I've read here it seems that the true or best synthetics are optimized poly ester based.
The word "best" can mean a lot of things.
Poly olesters are used in jet engines and turbines because they are very polar and withstand high heat.
That may not mean much in an automobile engine.
They are harder to formulate such that they don't destroy the elastomers in an automobile engine and they aren't all that wonderful when it comes to dealing with moisture in the oil.
Since the oils you see on the parts store shelf are the result of balancing price, performance, and lube stock availability, relatively few are poly olster-based and I have not seen a diester-based one in a number of years.
You can formulate a motor oil with a Group III+ or PAO that will provide performance such that the last thing to fail in your car is the engine.
a fellow member (Art_Vandelay) holds the position that the PAO based formulas are those with a -54 pour point. Look for that and you know you're not in Grp III land.
I'd love to hear from the Sr. Tribologists here on that theory. It sure would make identifying PAO oils much easier.
Based on my back-of-the-envelope sampling (Total Quartz 9000, Syntec 0w30, Mobil1 0w30), all known PAO oils.. they share a -54 pour point.
We could be on to something here... maybe(!).
I'd love to hear from the Sr. Tribologists here on that theory. It sure would make identifying PAO oils much easier.
Based on my back-of-the-envelope sampling (Total Quartz 9000, Syntec 0w30, Mobil1 0w30), all known PAO oils.. they share a -54 pour point.
We could be on to something here... maybe(!).
Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Originally Posted By: stenerson
From what I've read here it seems that the true or best synthetics are optimized poly ester based.
The word "best" can mean a lot of things.
Poly olesters are used in jet engines and turbines because they are very polar and withstand high heat.
That may not mean much in an automobile engine.
They are harder to formulate such that they don't destroy the elastomers in an automobile engine and they aren't all that
What are elastomers? Seals and gaskets?
Originally Posted By: stenerson
From what I've read here it seems that the true or best synthetics are optimized poly ester based.
The word "best" can mean a lot of things.
Poly olesters are used in jet engines and turbines because they are very polar and withstand high heat.
That may not mean much in an automobile engine.
They are harder to formulate such that they don't destroy the elastomers in an automobile engine and they aren't all that
What are elastomers? Seals and gaskets?
Originally Posted By: qship1996
Nothing to worry about with todays formulated group 4 and 5 oils.I have only used group 4 or group 5 oils for the last 500,000+ miles and never a problem, but plenty of benefits.
Is there a chart somewhere that shows what oils fall in to the different groups?
What are a few examples of current Group 4 and 5 oils?
Nothing to worry about with todays formulated group 4 and 5 oils.I have only used group 4 or group 5 oils for the last 500,000+ miles and never a problem, but plenty of benefits.
Is there a chart somewhere that shows what oils fall in to the different groups?
What are a few examples of current Group 4 and 5 oils?
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: stenerson
From what I've read here it seems that the true or best synthetics
are optimized poly ester based. And that this base oil itself
maximizes cleaning and lubrication as opposed to just relying on
the addpack. I'm not sure if this makes a difference in an average
Joe's like me application. I'd like to try it though some day just
for kicks.
Sounds like you've been into Red Line's marketing material.
Red Line's marketing or our posters well versed in esters.
Originally Posted By: stenerson
From what I've read here it seems that the true or best synthetics
are optimized poly ester based. And that this base oil itself
maximizes cleaning and lubrication as opposed to just relying on
the addpack. I'm not sure if this makes a difference in an average
Joe's like me application. I'd like to try it though some day just
for kicks.
Sounds like you've been into Red Line's marketing material.
Red Line's marketing or our posters well versed in esters.
Originally Posted By: stenerson
What are elastomers? Seals and gaskets?
Yes.
What are elastomers? Seals and gaskets?
Yes.
As you may have noted from the many replies, you have opened a can of worms.
My understanding is that the 0W-XXs and the 15W-50 are primarily made with Grp IV/V basestocks.
No one here really knows, or if they do, they aren't telling.
Mobil does really know, and they aren't saying.
I've used M1 for years with confidence, although not exclusively.
I think any other user could do the same.
As many have indicated above, there is more to a fully-formulated motor oil than the basestock.
My understanding is that the 0W-XXs and the 15W-50 are primarily made with Grp IV/V basestocks.
No one here really knows, or if they do, they aren't telling.
Mobil does really know, and they aren't saying.
I've used M1 for years with confidence, although not exclusively.
I think any other user could do the same.
As many have indicated above, there is more to a fully-formulated motor oil than the basestock.
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