The Japanese all seem to be going to 5W-20/0W-20 for most of their newer products. Have the Germans followed suit? If not, why not?
Which German manufacturers spec 5w-20/0W-20?
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Most of the Germans still require an oil with HT/HS viscosity of at least 3.5 cP. I don't think there are any Xw-20 oils out there that can have such high HT/HS viscosity.
Originally Posted By: BerndV
The Japanese all seem to be going to 5W-20/0W-20 for most of their newer products. Have the Germans followed suit? If not, why not?
Here we go.
The Japanese all seem to be going to 5W-20/0W-20 for most of their newer products. Have the Germans followed suit? If not, why not?
Not yet.
BMW does spec' a light A5/B5 0w30 with a HTHSV of 3.0cP.
It is LL-01 FE.
BMW does spec' a light A5/B5 0w30 with a HTHSV of 3.0cP.
It is LL-01 FE.
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Originally Posted By: BerndV
The Japanese all seem to be going to 5W-20/0W-20 for most of their newer products. Have the Germans followed suit? If not, why not?
Because Japan has North American style speed limits, Germany doesn't.
The Japanese all seem to be going to 5W-20/0W-20 for most of their newer products. Have the Germans followed suit? If not, why not?
Because Japan has North American style speed limits, Germany doesn't.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Most of the Germans still require an oil with HT/HS viscosity of at least 3.5 cP. I don't think there are any Xw-20 oils out there that can have such high HT/HS viscosity.
Yes, but why?
Most of the Germans still require an oil with HT/HS viscosity of at least 3.5 cP. I don't think there are any Xw-20 oils out there that can have such high HT/HS viscosity.
Yes, but why?
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: BerndV
The Japanese all seem to be going to 5W-20/0W-20 for most of their newer products. Have the Germans followed suit? If not, why not?
Because Japan has North American style speed limits, Germany doesn't.
The Japanese sell a lot of cars in Germany. Besides, occasional 150 mph runs on the Autobahn are no harder on an oil than a 5.7L Tundra pulling a 10,000 lb trailer up desert mountains in 110 degree heat.
Originally Posted By: BerndV
The Japanese all seem to be going to 5W-20/0W-20 for most of their newer products. Have the Germans followed suit? If not, why not?
Because Japan has North American style speed limits, Germany doesn't.
The Japanese sell a lot of cars in Germany. Besides, occasional 150 mph runs on the Autobahn are no harder on an oil than a 5.7L Tundra pulling a 10,000 lb trailer up desert mountains in 110 degree heat.
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German engines are dirty with a lot of combustion products making it into the oil. Japanese engines on the other hand are clean
Originally Posted By: BerndV
The Japanese sell a lot of cars in Germany.
But they're all speed governor limited to 80 mph to let all the Porsches through.
The Japanese sell a lot of cars in Germany.
But they're all speed governor limited to 80 mph to let all the Porsches through.
Originally Posted By: BerndV
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: BerndV
The Japanese all seem to be going to 5W-20/0W-20 for most of their newer products. Have the Germans followed suit? If not, why not?
Because Japan has North American style speed limits, Germany doesn't.
The Japanese sell a lot of cars in Germany.
But what oil do they require there?
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: BerndV
The Japanese all seem to be going to 5W-20/0W-20 for most of their newer products. Have the Germans followed suit? If not, why not?
Because Japan has North American style speed limits, Germany doesn't.
The Japanese sell a lot of cars in Germany.
But what oil do they require there?
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Originally Posted By: BerndV
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: BerndV
The Japanese all seem to be going to 5W-20/0W-20 for most of their newer products. Have the Germans followed suit? If not, why not?
Because Japan has North American style speed limits, Germany doesn't.
The Japanese sell a lot of cars in Germany.
What speed are the cars limited to?
IIRC, the Japanese cars sold in Germany also have different oil recommendations than the ones sold in North America/Japan. Trav posted about this in the past.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: BerndV
The Japanese all seem to be going to 5W-20/0W-20 for most of their newer products. Have the Germans followed suit? If not, why not?
Because Japan has North American style speed limits, Germany doesn't.
The Japanese sell a lot of cars in Germany.
What speed are the cars limited to?
IIRC, the Japanese cars sold in Germany also have different oil recommendations than the ones sold in North America/Japan. Trav posted about this in the past.
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Originally Posted By: BerndV
Besides, occasional 150 mph runs on the Autobahn are no harder on an oil than a 5.7L Tundra pulling a 10,000 lb trailer up desert mountains in 110 degree heat.
Ford disagrees.
This is why the 5.0L in the F-150 spec's 5w-20, whilst the one in the Track Pack Mustang GT spec's 5w-50.
Besides, occasional 150 mph runs on the Autobahn are no harder on an oil than a 5.7L Tundra pulling a 10,000 lb trailer up desert mountains in 110 degree heat.
Ford disagrees.
This is why the 5.0L in the F-150 spec's 5w-20, whilst the one in the Track Pack Mustang GT spec's 5w-50.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: BerndV
The Japanese all seem to be going to 5W-20/0W-20 for most of their newer products. Have the Germans followed suit? If not, why not?
Because Japan has North American style speed limits, Germany doesn't.
Is high speed driving the only reason for specifying heavier oils?
If it was then those instances where US drivers and dealers used the wrong oil and had sludge wouldn't have happened.
There must be something not connected with lower speed limits that still means German cars in the US require heavier oils. Is it something extra in the add pack for those same oils?
Originally Posted By: BerndV
The Japanese all seem to be going to 5W-20/0W-20 for most of their newer products. Have the Germans followed suit? If not, why not?
Because Japan has North American style speed limits, Germany doesn't.
Is high speed driving the only reason for specifying heavier oils?
If it was then those instances where US drivers and dealers used the wrong oil and had sludge wouldn't have happened.
There must be something not connected with lower speed limits that still means German cars in the US require heavier oils. Is it something extra in the add pack for those same oils?
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
IIRC, the Japanese cars sold in Germany also have different oil recommendations than the ones sold in North America/Japan.
Correct. Take a modern day Accord with the 2.4-liter engine, for example. In Europe it calls for an A3/B4 type oil such as Castrol Edge 0w30 or Magnatec 10w-40.
IIRC, the Japanese cars sold in Germany also have different oil recommendations than the ones sold in North America/Japan.
Correct. Take a modern day Accord with the 2.4-liter engine, for example. In Europe it calls for an A3/B4 type oil such as Castrol Edge 0w30 or Magnatec 10w-40.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: BerndV
Besides, occasional 150 mph runs on the Autobahn are no harder on an oil than a 5.7L Tundra pulling a 10,000 lb trailer up desert mountains in 110 degree heat.
Ford disagrees.
This is why the 5.0L in the F-150 spec's 5w-20, whilst the one in the Track Pack Mustang GT spec's 5w-50.
Then why spec such oils for German cars sold in NA and Japan?
Originally Posted By: BerndV
Besides, occasional 150 mph runs on the Autobahn are no harder on an oil than a 5.7L Tundra pulling a 10,000 lb trailer up desert mountains in 110 degree heat.
Ford disagrees.
This is why the 5.0L in the F-150 spec's 5w-20, whilst the one in the Track Pack Mustang GT spec's 5w-50.
Then why spec such oils for German cars sold in NA and Japan?
Reducing oil consumption is another reason for heavier oil.
The combination of high speeds producing higher oil temp's with higher rev's translates into greater oil consumption; possibly unacceptably so.
The combination of high speeds producing higher oil temp's with higher rev's translates into greater oil consumption; possibly unacceptably so.
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Originally Posted By: EType
Is high speed driving the only reason for specifying heavier oils?
No, it is oil temperature, which does of course go hand-in-hand with heavier oil, but these heavier oils are, by design, also setup to handle extended drain intervals, which brings me to your second point....
Quote:
If it was then those instances where US drivers and dealers used the wrong oil and had sludge wouldn't have happened.
That had to do with using a non-extended drain oil at intervals designed for "Euro oils", that are in fact developed to handle those types of drain intervals. It isn't the weight per se, simply part of the design criteria of the lubricant.
Quote:
There must be something not connected with lower speed limits that still means German cars in the US require heavier oils. Is it something extra in the add pack for those same oils?
Nope, they don't "require" heavier oils. They require approved lubricants, which are usually validated in Germany, and subsequently mean Autobahn use. These oils are not only designed to handle extended drain intervals, but deal with the elevated oil temperatures generated due to high speed driving (hence the lubricants generally having a higher HTHS). There are multiple criteria at work here, covered by OEM approvals like LL-01, 505.xx, MBxxx...etc.
Your basic API 5w-20 isn't designed to run 15-20,000 miles between drain intervals. That's not to say an oil in that weight that could handle that type of interval doesn't exist (AMSOIL's signature series comes to mind, as does Mobil 1 Extended Performance) but these lubricants carry none of the approvals of the Euro marques, because they aren't heavy enough to provide adequate protection under "Autobahn" conditions and subsequently these companies make no efforts to test them.
Is high speed driving the only reason for specifying heavier oils?
No, it is oil temperature, which does of course go hand-in-hand with heavier oil, but these heavier oils are, by design, also setup to handle extended drain intervals, which brings me to your second point....
Quote:
If it was then those instances where US drivers and dealers used the wrong oil and had sludge wouldn't have happened.
That had to do with using a non-extended drain oil at intervals designed for "Euro oils", that are in fact developed to handle those types of drain intervals. It isn't the weight per se, simply part of the design criteria of the lubricant.
Quote:
There must be something not connected with lower speed limits that still means German cars in the US require heavier oils. Is it something extra in the add pack for those same oils?
Nope, they don't "require" heavier oils. They require approved lubricants, which are usually validated in Germany, and subsequently mean Autobahn use. These oils are not only designed to handle extended drain intervals, but deal with the elevated oil temperatures generated due to high speed driving (hence the lubricants generally having a higher HTHS). There are multiple criteria at work here, covered by OEM approvals like LL-01, 505.xx, MBxxx...etc.
Your basic API 5w-20 isn't designed to run 15-20,000 miles between drain intervals. That's not to say an oil in that weight that could handle that type of interval doesn't exist (AMSOIL's signature series comes to mind, as does Mobil 1 Extended Performance) but these lubricants carry none of the approvals of the Euro marques, because they aren't heavy enough to provide adequate protection under "Autobahn" conditions and subsequently these companies make no efforts to test them.
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Originally Posted By: BerndV
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: BerndV
Besides, occasional 150 mph runs on the Autobahn are no harder on an oil than a 5.7L Tundra pulling a 10,000 lb trailer up desert mountains in 110 degree heat.
Ford disagrees.
This is why the 5.0L in the F-150 spec's 5w-20, whilst the one in the Track Pack Mustang GT spec's 5w-50.
Then why spec such oils for German cars sold in NA and Japan?
See my next post
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: BerndV
Besides, occasional 150 mph runs on the Autobahn are no harder on an oil than a 5.7L Tundra pulling a 10,000 lb trailer up desert mountains in 110 degree heat.
Ford disagrees.
This is why the 5.0L in the F-150 spec's 5w-20, whilst the one in the Track Pack Mustang GT spec's 5w-50.
Then why spec such oils for German cars sold in NA and Japan?
See my next post
Originally Posted By: BerndV
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: BerndV
The Japanese all seem to be going to 5W-20/0W-20 for most of their newer products. Have the Germans followed suit? If not, why not?
Because Japan has North American style speed limits, Germany doesn't.
The Japanese sell a lot of cars in Germany. Besides, occasional 150 mph runs on the Autobahn are no harder on an oil than a 5.7L Tundra pulling a 10,000 lb trailer up desert mountains in 110 degree heat.
I have to agree. Ford trucks see brutal conditions at times using 5-20. IMO that's much harder on oil than the occasional run of high speeds in Euro. I believe it's more to the engine design Euros use than anything else. I am trying to think where in central Euro where they see temps of 100-120F for extended periods of time like we have in parts of the US.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: BerndV
The Japanese all seem to be going to 5W-20/0W-20 for most of their newer products. Have the Germans followed suit? If not, why not?
Because Japan has North American style speed limits, Germany doesn't.
The Japanese sell a lot of cars in Germany. Besides, occasional 150 mph runs on the Autobahn are no harder on an oil than a 5.7L Tundra pulling a 10,000 lb trailer up desert mountains in 110 degree heat.
I have to agree. Ford trucks see brutal conditions at times using 5-20. IMO that's much harder on oil than the occasional run of high speeds in Euro. I believe it's more to the engine design Euros use than anything else. I am trying to think where in central Euro where they see temps of 100-120F for extended periods of time like we have in parts of the US.
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Just gotta chime in with my 2c worth.
There's a lot of talk about "autobahn" use leading to the assumption of long WOT 200km/h (120mph) runs. That isn't the case. Most autobahns are limited to 130km/h 80mph. Only SOME sections are no speed limit but they are few and far between. Even in the no speed limit sections, you'd be pushing to get past 80mph on a normal day due to traffic. Monday to friday, forget it! Perhaps an early sunday morning run or night time run will allow high speeds.
Just sayin that "foot to the floor redlining in top gear" isn't as "normal" as it's being made out to be.
There's a lot of talk about "autobahn" use leading to the assumption of long WOT 200km/h (120mph) runs. That isn't the case. Most autobahns are limited to 130km/h 80mph. Only SOME sections are no speed limit but they are few and far between. Even in the no speed limit sections, you'd be pushing to get past 80mph on a normal day due to traffic. Monday to friday, forget it! Perhaps an early sunday morning run or night time run will allow high speeds.
Just sayin that "foot to the floor redlining in top gear" isn't as "normal" as it's being made out to be.
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