When to use an oil additive.

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: electrolover
Originally Posted By: Trajan
What problem you think you have requires an OTC additive?

What do you think the people and companies who formulate oil missed that makes you go to an OTC oil additive?

What will said additive do to the add pack?

I stopped using them as I can't answer those questions.

And as a kreen pusher said about oil adds, and I'll paraphrase, "Leave them on the shelf. At the end of the day you're trying to turn a dog into a fox."



I use two additives. Kreen and MMO (IN OIL) to clean when needed. Sometimes oil is not enough to fix years of neglect. As far as the others like moly adds and such, I just buy a good oil and trust its protecting my engine.
If you dig the other adds more power to ya, but I think a good oil is good enough for wear protection......but if its an oil burner on its last leg I will lucas tha sucker in a heartbeat!!

If I want oil adds, I'll use oil. It already has them.

Used to use that stuff in oil. Been two years since I went oil additive free. Posted an anecdote where I said that mmo silences a noisy lifter. And the mmo zealots instntly praised it without question. It didn't stay that way, but arx fixed it. A barrage of silence from the mmo mafia followed.

Use what you will, don't really care. But no one has yet taken up the challenge to prove to me that they work.

Certainly my 20 year old Buick LeSabre did fine without it. So did my 20 year old Nova.

What no link like i asked?
You talk the game but take every opportunity to push one of the biggest snake oils of all time every chance you get, you couldn't resist even in this post.
You constantly tell how your car got better MPG at idle with it using the onboard MPG monitor.

You have been one of the biggest supporters of snake oil (ARX) on BITOG! What a hypocrite.
Originally Posted By: trajan
I've used MMO, and never had a problem with it. If MMO makes one happy, great. If it's arx that does, great. Seafoam, B-12, whatever

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...535#Post1464535
Originally Posted By: trajan
My V6 Camaro (3.8) would ping on leaving a light/stop sign. Techron, Seafoam, Regane didn't stop it. But MMO does. It also seems quieter.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...0282#Post290282

Point made nuff said.

 

[Mystic]

Well demarpaint, I think Trajan has said it best himself-he once used MMO and he said that it seemed to work for him. So now if he demonizes MMO, what are we to make of that?

If somebody is truly against all oil supplements, THEN THEY SHOULD BE AGAINST ALL OIL SUPPLEMENTS! I get tired of some guys who say they are against oil supplements and then mention that they do use some oil supplement occasionally or all the time. Even Skyship, who is kind of all over the map but basically against oil supplements, said that he had used some cleaners in marine engines.

I am not very excited about most oil supplements myself but I do believe there is a need for some cleaners and I have liked some oil supplements. If I ever change my mind and decide that nobody should use an oil supplement I will state that position here at bitgo and stick with it.

I can understand somebody feeling that their oil supplement is the best and the one that everybody else should be using. That is fine, but they should not attack people who like other oil supplements or no oil supplements. They should try to prove to everybody here that their oil supplement is the best. And they should be able to do that without personal attacks on other people.

My own personable belief is that most oil supplements are junk. But I believe there are a few that are potentially useful and I would like to be able to read good, reasonable discussions on those few that might work.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
Well demarpaint, I think Trajan has said it best himself-he once used MMO and he said that it seemed to work for him. So now if he demonizes MMO, what are we to make of that?


Well, mystic, guess you either ignored or forgot the post where I said that the problem that I said it fixed, something that you and others accepted with out question, (gullible that was.), came back in a very short time.

Gullible... What are we to make of thst?

Originally Posted By: Mystic

"I was a big Auto-RX supporter here for a long time because the stuff actually seemed to stop a seal leak."

So now that you demonize it, what are we to make of that?

I get it, you don't like anyone who questions undocumented claims.

 

[Trajan]

Oh, can you tell me which kreen pusher said this? "If you are using a Synthetic oil leave the wizards in a bottle on the shelf if you are using anything less then yes they may be of some benefit but at the and of the day you are just trying to turn a dog into a fox."

Now, it's been stated by demarpaint that one is suppossed to take claims at face value because it's posted by a "respected" member.

So whay do you and others not follow that?

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
Well demarpaint, I think Trajan has said it best himself-he once used MMO and he said that it seemed to work for him. So now if he demonizes MMO, what are we to make of that?

If somebody is truly against all oil supplements, THEN THEY SHOULD BE AGAINST ALL OIL SUPPLEMENTS! I get tired of some guys who say they are against oil supplements and then mention that they do use some oil supplement occasionally or all the time. Even Skyship, who is kind of all over the map but basically against oil supplements, said that he had used some cleaners in marine engines.

I am not very excited about most oil supplements myself but I do believe there is a need for some cleaners and I have liked some oil supplements. If I ever change my mind and decide that nobody should use an oil supplement I will state that position here at bitgo and stick with it.

I can understand somebody feeling that their oil supplement is the best and the one that everybody else should be using. That is fine, but they should not attack people who like other oil supplements or no oil supplements. They should try to prove to everybody here that their oil supplement is the best. And they should be able to do that without personal attacks on other people.

My own personable belief is that most oil supplements are junk. But I believe there are a few that are potentially useful and I would like to be able to read good, reasonable discussions on those few that might work.


This is what I make of it, he hates Kreen and MMO and makes it perfectly clear. It bothers the [censored] out of him that so many of us had positive results that he can't stand it. So every chance he gets he asks for proof, accuses us of lying, being paid, [like the product he hypes did with some of its users]. Then he takes cheap shots at the products, or the people that use those products. No big deal, lots of people here are getting tired of him, you can tell by the responses he gets. What he hasn't figured out is the more he attacks the more he's met with retaliations.

 

[Trav]

Maybe Frank Miller will join again to come bail him out.

 

[SteveSRT8]

I will never understand how anyone who does the simple math could deny that there may be certain folks who can benefit from an additive.

Too many cars and drivers in too many differing environments mean no oil is going to do it all for all of them.

There will always be additives, and some of us will use them. There will always be detractors with an axe to grind also!

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Maybe Frank Miller will join again to come bail him out.

HA. Hasn't Frank Miller popped in here and there,makes a few posts under some name,then evaporates again.
This thread is one of the most entertaining we've had in weeks.
Sunkship originally starts it to swear off all additives except the ones he recommends of course,then we actually had some useful feedback from guys using various products that either did nothing for them in their particular application and we've had posts from guys who used a product that worked well for them. If we could sort out the useless posts,from the ones where guys addressed and helped their specific problem this could be a very helpful thread for people trying to address a specific issue.
So I'm going to sum it up,if some members don't like my summation I'm sure I'll read about it shortly.
Kreen:members have had generally very good experiences. It cleans everything in a timely manner when USED AS DIRECTED.
MMO: cleans crankcase albeit slowly but does work. When used in fuel will clean injectors and has helped some folks fuel level gauges read properly again.
Auto RX: cleans ring packs however directions change as far as what oils to use,doesn't seem to live up to advertised claims but some members have had good luck with it. Not cost effective when compared to other products.
Liqui-moly MOS2: I've personally had nothing but good experiences with it. Helped fuel economy. Those who have used it either like it,or are indifferent. One member claims it blew up his engine. I've used it in everything from a ford 2v,hemi,5.3L chev,12 5.5 hp Honda engines,5 6000 watt generators,a ford 3.8,dodge caliber and a few others that escape me right now with no failures as of yet.
Liqui-moly motor oil saver:generally unknown,fixed a coolant leak for me in a hemi.
Amsoil idle flush:works as advertised and comes highly recommended from sunkship,who started this thread saying don't use additives.
No one oil on the planet is perfect for every engine,every driving style,every climate and every person. All oils will have limitations and if your buying a used car the previous owner may have neglected it causing deposits that need attention. We all want a clean,smooth running efficient motor. Not all of us can disassemble a motor to manually clean the innards,so we turn to the aftermarket for help.
I have in my stash a GM branded motor oil supplement so anyone who paints the broad stroke of the owners manuals advising against using or no oem's recommend using an oil supplement should consult General Motors and ask them to hide this stuff.
For those who don't believe in or advise against using an oil additive to address an issue are welcome to their opinion however the rest of us will continue using them to address a known issue,or just because we like them. You don't have to look down on or trash those of us who have had good experiences with certain products,but calling all of them snake oil just shows your lack of knowledge and information,and perhaps it's best kept to yourself.
Just my lowly opinion as a carpenter

 

[electrolover]

Not to thread jack, but on the subject of mos2, how much moly will it add if used as directed? What other additives does it contain to raise mpg?

 

[skyship]

Why do you keep saying I recommend oil additives when I don't? Idle flush additives are maintenance products and very different to a drive around snake oil. If folks do insist they have to use a flush because they can't afford to clean an engine properly, then I have pointed out that idle flushes are much safer to use than drive around scourers and don't invalidate an engine warranty.
The GM approval for their Zinc additive was withdrawn years ago due to EPA and exhaust fouling concerns. There never was any need for that additive in the first place, as other oils had enough Zinc.

This is worth reading from the Oil Bible:

Your Opinion: A Ford Engineer contacts carbibles.com about additives

In 2006 I was contacted by a Ford engineer who has worked for them for 24 years. These views do not necessarily represent Ford, but it makes an interesting read nevertheless.
Some of the things in your site are true like the pure baloney that additive companies put out. I have been with Ford for 24 years in research and development for their power train division. I have forgotten more lube problems than 90% of so-called mechanics will ever know. I like the way some mechanics make statements like they're some sort of God without being able to back them up. All that mallarkey in some of the feedback above claiming 800,000 miles on a gas engine are laughable. There is so much that goes into producing engine oil that dumping "magic" additives into it is just criminal. The quality of most addatives is questionable at best. Whilst the names may be similar, the quality is not. Additives are blended at the proper rate, heat and in the proper proportions by the manufactures of their particular product. Crude supplies are not all the same quality and the additives have to be adjusted for the quality of the base stock being used by each particular company, per batch. Dumping your own personal stuff will more than likely be way inferior to what the oil manufacturer uses. The chemicals will normally differ from the manufacturers blend, and can cancel each other out to the point where there will be no anti-wear properties left in the product. (This is one reason it's not wise to mix oils from different manufacturers together). Changing the oil from say Mobil to Shell and then to Pennzoil will have a negative effect on your engine from conflicting chemicals. Buy an oil that you may like and STICK TO THAT COMPANY'S product.
What you may get away with when using Shell may cause instant havoc with Valvoline. The major oil companies work closely with the auto manufacturers so that bearing material, seal material, roller bearings, ball bearings, and all other moving parts are not adversely affected by the oil products. This is especially true for automatic transmissions. DO NOT USE SOMETHING OTHER THAN WHAT IS SPECIFIED BY THE CAR MAKER FOR YOUR ENGINE OR AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION.

(I would point out that there are a few hydraulic fluid additives approved for specific terminal problems)

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: skyship
Why do you keep saying I recommend oil additives when I don't? Idle flush additives are maintenance products and very different to a drive around snake oil. If folks do insist they have to use a flush because they can't afford to clean an engine properly, then I have pointed out that idle flushes are much safer to use than drive around scourers and don't invalidate an engine warranty.
The GM approval for their Zinc additive was withdrawn years ago due to EPA and exhaust fouling concerns. There never was any need for that additive in the first place, as other oils had enough Zinc.


Are you adding an idle flush to your oil? If not then how would it get into the oil to clean an engine while idling? Bottom line, if you open up a can or bottle of anything and pour it into you engine, or oil then it is an additive.

 

[NMBurb02]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Are you adding an idle flush to your oil? If not then how would it get into the oil to clean an engine while idling? Bottom line, if you open up a can or bottle of anything and pour it into you engine, or oil then it is an additive.

Come on now, don't make too much sense.

And isn't adding non-idle flush additives also a maintenance item? Most people (or at least those on these boards) aren't looking for magic in a bottle but are instead trying to supplement for something they think their oil is lacking, whether it be detergents, seal conditioners, anti-wear additives (moly, ZDDP), etc. No oil is perfect and as oil technology has progressed, some tried and true formulations have been dropped due to CAFE, emissions standards, or more delicate emissions components (cats). I'm no expert, but my Suburban was built (only about 11 years ago) when API SL was the most current standard, SN has lower zinc levels, and some may want to supplement with a zinc-containing product in order to get the wear protection they had with the SL. They may not need the added zinc, but they may feel better with it (lower engine noise, butt dyno, or whatever other justification they make). And I think you would be hard pressed to use the "buy a better oil" argument by telling someone to switch from SN to SL (good luck finding it anyway).

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: NMBurb02
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Are you adding an idle flush to your oil? If not then how would it get into the oil to clean an engine while idling? Bottom line, if you open up a can or bottle of anything and pour it into you engine, or oil then it is an additive.

Come on now, don't make too much sense.

And isn't adding non-idle flush additives also a maintenance item? Most people (or at least those on these boards) aren't looking for magic in a bottle but are instead trying to supplement for something they think their oil is lacking, whether it be detergents, seal conditioners, anti-wear additives (moly, ZDDP), etc. No oil is perfect and as oil technology has progressed, some tried and true formulations have been dropped due to CAFE, emissions standards, or more delicate emissions components (cats). I'm no expert, but my Suburban was built (only about 11 years ago) when API SL was the most current standard, SN has lower zinc levels, and some may want to supplement with a zinc-containing product in order to get the wear protection they had with the SL. They may not need the added zinc, but they may feel better with it (lower engine noise, butt dyno, or whatever other justification they make). And I think you would be hard pressed to use the "buy a better oil" argument by telling someone to switch from SN to SL (good luck finding it anyway).


Idle flushes are just temporary additives rather than permanent ones and I don't regard any chemical used during maintenance as a snake oil. The difference between a snake oil and an oil additive is that a snake oil has no approvals or recommendations from the engine manufacturer.
The major engine oil companies make good oils that have such a variety of inclusive add packs and base stocks that I think it highly unlikely you will not find an oil to match a particular engine or application. You can always ask in this forum if you don't know much about the different oils available or don't trust the advertising.

 

[KCJeep]

Originally Posted By: electrolover
Not to thread jack, but on the subject of mos2, how much moly will it add if used as directed? What other additives does it contain to raise mpg?


Here's a VOA for you.



In my 6 quart sump, near as I can tell (UOA's pending) that will work out to 250-300 ppm extra moly.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Originally Posted By: electrolover
Not to thread jack, but on the subject of mos2, how much moly will it add if used as directed? What other additives does it contain to raise mpg?


Here's a VOA for you.



In my 6 quart sump, near as I can tell (UOA's pending) that will work out to 250-300 ppm extra moly.

I have been using this stuff for years and many hundreds of thousands of miles,and in every piece of gas powered equipment I own. I've always gotten a higher monetary return then the initial cost of the can cost me to buy. And in one of my air compressors my guys unplugged the low oil alert to get it started then forgot to add oil,for 2 days and it finally locked up solid. I pulled off the pull cord housing,removed the carb,gas tank and head,put a 30" pipe wrench on the crank nut and got it to turn over. There wasn't even a score on the cylinder wall. I put the whole thing back together,new oil and 1/4 can mos2 and it started by the 3rd pull. That was 2 years ago. That compressor is still in service on site to this day and doesn't smoke on start up.
I don't care who calls this stuff snake oil. My compressors cost 1000 bucks each. New motors are 500-600 each. This 8 dollar can of mos2 saved me having to buy a new engine,or the cost of re-building it.
Once I got it to turn over I felt the cylinder wall and I couldn't believe how smooth it felt however the cross hatching was still visible.
The stuff has extended the life of all my equipment as proven by how long these engines went before needing rebuild before I started using it and after.
These 5.5 Honda engines last roughly 3 years of everyday use before needing rebuild. My newest one is 3 years old. The oldest is 7. Not once has needed rebuild yet,out of 12. And I've yet to see sludge caused by this stuff.
I don't care what some anonymous guy on a forum says about snake oil,this stuff has proven itself to me. And that's all that matters. My service bills(or lack of) tells the story here.

 

[skyship]

Just a typical snake oil users story, you need to do detailed UOA comparisons with cross checks to a normal oil use to show any effect. The engines might have lasted longer with just normal oil.
The VOA of the Moly supplement shows it has no Calcium or Zinc, so as soon as you add it to a good oil it dilutes the concentration of those two important additives, even before you start to consider how the snake oil will effect the existing oils add pack.
The snake oil companies themselves try to find labs that would publish data to support their use, but they have failed to publish anything useful so far.

 

[jonny-b]

All modern engine oils contain a highly refined petroleum or synthetic base oil which is fortified with additives to meet motor oil performance specifications. Even so, dated specifications may not represent the level of performance needed by a new engine design. A new oil may not contain sufficient additives such as ANTI-WEAR agents or ANTI-CORROSION compounds even though it passes all the tests. Furthermore, these protective compounds are depleted when the oil is in service.

 

[electrolover]

Your such a troll. Your lucky im not a mod

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: jonny-b
All modern engine oils contain a highly refined petroleum or synthetic base oil which is fortified with additives to meet motor oil performance specifications. Even so, dated specifications may not represent the level of performance needed by a new engine design. A new oil may not contain sufficient additives such as ANTI-WEAR agents or ANTI-CORROSION compounds even though it passes all the tests. Furthermore, these protective compounds are depleted when the oil is in service.



The major oil companies do change the contents of their oil in terms of the exact additive levels. They also sometimes change the base stock mix. To give you a good example castrol GTX has been around since Noah canged the oil in his Arks engine, but it is now a very different part synthetic. If you think your oils add pack is weak, just buy a better oil.
I think there are now 4 different versions of GTX, the old 10/40, 15/40, newer 5/30 and HM versions.

 

[electrolover]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Originally Posted By: electrolover
Not to thread jack, but on the subject of mos2, how much moly will it add if used as directed? What other additives does it contain to raise mpg?


Here's a VOA for you.



In my 6 quart sump, near as I can tell (UOA's pending) that will work out to 250-300 ppm extra moly.


First thanks for the info!
200-300 ppm of moly is nothing to laugh at. I like the boron too!
Has molakule commented on this stuff?