When to use an oil additive.
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Originally Posted By: Mystic
Well, I take in than that BG products have manufacturers approval because the last time I bought a new car the dealership was trying to get people to buy BG products. Of course, that was several years ago.
If I remember correctly Skyship you said that you concocted your own engine cleaners for marine engines. I could look it up.
And if any oil supplement was found in the engine oil of a new car that had experienced engine failure that would probably be used to void the warranty.
Quite a number of coolant and fuel additives are approved products, so you will see those sold by dealers.
Well, I take in than that BG products have manufacturers approval because the last time I bought a new car the dealership was trying to get people to buy BG products. Of course, that was several years ago.
If I remember correctly Skyship you said that you concocted your own engine cleaners for marine engines. I could look it up.
And if any oil supplement was found in the engine oil of a new car that had experienced engine failure that would probably be used to void the warranty.
Quite a number of coolant and fuel additives are approved products, so you will see those sold by dealers.
Well, Skyship, when I bought my Saturn the dealership was promoting BG products including BG oil supplements. I will grant you that that was several years ago. I bought my last new car in 2004.
You do not convince me Skyship that you are some profound expert when it comes to motor oils and oil supplements. You are an investigator for warranty and insurance claims. Any oil supplement found in motor oil in a vehicle where there had been engine failure could be used (and probably would be used) as a basis for denying warranty claims. I think an investigator for insurance and warranty claims would tend to be against oil supplements.
And you have changed stories so many times, demonstrated that you did not really know what was used in German garages, and made so many incredible remarks (such as the story about a LM engine cleaner being used outside of the dealerships and garages so that there could be no liability claims) that people here are not very likely to accept what you say automatically.
To the best of my knowledge Redline still sells an oil supplement. I think Scaeffer's does too. Lubegard sells an engine oil supplement. LM, a company you seem fairly fond of, sells an oil supplement.
And Amsoil, a name brand company, sells two engine flushes.
I think these name brand companies know something and I think they make good products.
People have to have some way to clean a dirty engine that has been in use a long time and has many miles. The only other way would be to take the engine apart and physically clean it.
You do not convince me Skyship that you are some profound expert when it comes to motor oils and oil supplements. You are an investigator for warranty and insurance claims. Any oil supplement found in motor oil in a vehicle where there had been engine failure could be used (and probably would be used) as a basis for denying warranty claims. I think an investigator for insurance and warranty claims would tend to be against oil supplements.
And you have changed stories so many times, demonstrated that you did not really know what was used in German garages, and made so many incredible remarks (such as the story about a LM engine cleaner being used outside of the dealerships and garages so that there could be no liability claims) that people here are not very likely to accept what you say automatically.
To the best of my knowledge Redline still sells an oil supplement. I think Scaeffer's does too. Lubegard sells an engine oil supplement. LM, a company you seem fairly fond of, sells an oil supplement.
And Amsoil, a name brand company, sells two engine flushes.
I think these name brand companies know something and I think they make good products.
People have to have some way to clean a dirty engine that has been in use a long time and has many miles. The only other way would be to take the engine apart and physically clean it.
Now the thing is I do agree pretty much that people need to avoid oil supplements. I think most oil supplements are unnecessary at best and some oil supplements are junk. But there are a few that I think are quality products and worthwhile.
And people have to have some way to clean dirty engines. That is why a company like Amsoil makes engine flushes.
Some sort of blanket statement that all oil supplements are bad is simply wrong. What if a person has a seal leak? There are products to try to stop seal leaks. There are products for other problems.
And people have to have some way to clean dirty engines. That is why a company like Amsoil makes engine flushes.
Some sort of blanket statement that all oil supplements are bad is simply wrong. What if a person has a seal leak? There are products to try to stop seal leaks. There are products for other problems.
Most of the time know-it-alls usually dont....
I used to think I knew about oils because I worked at an oil change shop. Then I found bitog and got a little education.
This guy thinks he's got it all figured out because he's an insurance adjuster or something.
leave him be....he will eventually read and learn from the amazing archive that is BITOG
I used to think I knew about oils because I worked at an oil change shop. Then I found bitog and got a little education.
This guy thinks he's got it all figured out because he's an insurance adjuster or something.
It would be nice if he did learn something here but I really think that is unlikely. He pretty much already thinks he knows it all.
And I think an investigator for warranty claims and insurance claims would be biased against oil supplements anyway.
And I think an investigator for warranty claims and insurance claims would be biased against oil supplements anyway.
Originally Posted By: electrolover
Most of the time know-it-alls usually dont....
I used to think I knew about oils because I worked at an oil change shop. Then I found bitog and got a little education.
This guy thinks he's got it all figured out because he's an insurance adjuster or something.
leave him be....he will eventually read and learn from the amazing archive that is BITOG
That's the case a lot of times. Then you have people that are book smart but can't work with their hands, and if it comes down to doing something that isn't in a book their tilt light comes on. They have knowledge from what they've read, treat it as Gospel, expect you to do the same, but are totally helpless when you hand them a wrench, or ask them to do something. Two friends with Engineering degrees come to mind, extremely bright, just don't put a hammer or wrench in their hands. Or have them do something that isn't in a book.
Most of the time know-it-alls usually dont....
I used to think I knew about oils because I worked at an oil change shop. Then I found bitog and got a little education.
This guy thinks he's got it all figured out because he's an insurance adjuster or something.
That's the case a lot of times. Then you have people that are book smart but can't work with their hands, and if it comes down to doing something that isn't in a book their tilt light comes on. They have knowledge from what they've read, treat it as Gospel, expect you to do the same, but are totally helpless when you hand them a wrench, or ask them to do something. Two friends with Engineering degrees come to mind, extremely bright, just don't put a hammer or wrench in their hands. Or have them do something that isn't in a book.
Originally Posted By: Mystic
It would be nice if he did learn something here but I really think that is unlikely. He pretty much already thinks he knows it all.
And I think an investigator for warranty claims and insurance claims would be biased against oil supplements anyway.
Well those guys are usually looking for any way to alibi their way out of liability anyhow so an oil additive is a good excuse. The words crook cheat and scum come to mind....
It would be nice if he did learn something here but I really think that is unlikely. He pretty much already thinks he knows it all.
And I think an investigator for warranty claims and insurance claims would be biased against oil supplements anyway.
Well those guys are usually looking for any way to alibi their way out of liability anyhow so an oil additive is a good excuse. The words crook cheat and scum come to mind....
Yes, you can bet in a warranty claim they are looking for any excuse to blame it on the owner. If they find any evidence of an owner using an oil supplement (if the owner admitted to it or they did a chemical analysis) and the engine has failed they are off the hook. They can say it is in the owner's manual that you are not supposed to use supplements.
Different story for the dealership that was maybe trying to get the owner to use BG products.
If there is something wrong with an engine (very high oil consumption or whatever) the dealership and the carmaker will get out of it somehow. And they have a lot more power than the owner of the car or truck. And who pays the investigator?
Different story for the dealership that was maybe trying to get the owner to use BG products.
If there is something wrong with an engine (very high oil consumption or whatever) the dealership and the carmaker will get out of it somehow. And they have a lot more power than the owner of the car or truck. And who pays the investigator?
Originally Posted By: Mystic
It would be nice if he did learn something here but I really think that is unlikely. He pretty much already thinks he knows it all.
And I think an investigator for warranty claims and insurance claims would be biased against oil supplements anyway.
Less than 10% of the engine warranty claims involve the wrong oil or oil additives, the figure in the US is about 30%, although those figures include dealers or garages using the wrong oil. Most of the failures I see are mechanical.
The main thing I have leant from the additives section is that folks believe the advertising from the snake oil companies and don't take into account the fact that modern engines are very different to the old big blocks. Also for some reason when faced with a problem like sludge they jump to the conclusion that the answer has to be an oil additive before they even look in the maintenance manual.
I can fully understand the occasional use of oil additives in a last ditch attempt to save an engine, but most users are not doing that, but using additives trying to prevent an engine problem or trying to improve performance. Fuel and coolant additives can be useful in that respect, but as far as I have seen there is not one oil additive available that will improve the performance of a top class major brand engine oil without causing an undesirable side effect.
The other interesting thing I have seen from this forum is that folks don't find out what exactlty is wrong with an engine or the oil they are using before trying an additive. Often they misdiagnose a fault and then make things worse. The most common one serious mistakes are adding an oil thickner because an engine has cold start rattles or using flush when the engine has a high oil consumption. I get to see some auto box failures on occasions when they are back at the manufacturers and I was amused that they often find the owner kept using fluid additives when all that needed doing was a double fluid change or a session plugged into a flush machine. In many cases the owners think that some can of snake oil can replace the need for maintenance, which is still causing serious sludge issues.
It would be nice if he did learn something here but I really think that is unlikely. He pretty much already thinks he knows it all.
And I think an investigator for warranty claims and insurance claims would be biased against oil supplements anyway.
Less than 10% of the engine warranty claims involve the wrong oil or oil additives, the figure in the US is about 30%, although those figures include dealers or garages using the wrong oil. Most of the failures I see are mechanical.
The main thing I have leant from the additives section is that folks believe the advertising from the snake oil companies and don't take into account the fact that modern engines are very different to the old big blocks. Also for some reason when faced with a problem like sludge they jump to the conclusion that the answer has to be an oil additive before they even look in the maintenance manual.
I can fully understand the occasional use of oil additives in a last ditch attempt to save an engine, but most users are not doing that, but using additives trying to prevent an engine problem or trying to improve performance. Fuel and coolant additives can be useful in that respect, but as far as I have seen there is not one oil additive available that will improve the performance of a top class major brand engine oil without causing an undesirable side effect.
The other interesting thing I have seen from this forum is that folks don't find out what exactlty is wrong with an engine or the oil they are using before trying an additive. Often they misdiagnose a fault and then make things worse. The most common one serious mistakes are adding an oil thickner because an engine has cold start rattles or using flush when the engine has a high oil consumption. I get to see some auto box failures on occasions when they are back at the manufacturers and I was amused that they often find the owner kept using fluid additives when all that needed doing was a double fluid change or a session plugged into a flush machine. In many cases the owners think that some can of snake oil can replace the need for maintenance, which is still causing serious sludge issues.
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Originally Posted By: skyship
Less than 10% of the engine warranty claims involve the wrong oil or oil additives, the figure in the US is about 30%, although those figures include dealers or garages using the wrong oil
Proof on those numbers please. You toss out the 30% of US failures out with confidence.
Break that down for us. GM, Ford, chrysler, Toyota, Honda etc. That would be more than enlightening to see what engines are failing due to lube failure.
Originally Posted By: skyship
the fact that modern engines are very different to the old big blocks
What big blocks would these be? You throw this term around fast and loose now tell us what it is.
Just how big is the big block? Other than its displacement what makes it big block or a small block?
Is a 396 ci Chevy a big block? Is a 400 ci Chevy a big block?
Originally Posted By: skyship
get to see some auto box failures on occasions when they are back at the manufacturers and I was amused that they often find the owner kept using fluid additives when all that needed doing was a double fluid change or a session plugged into a flush machine.
Your were amused? What flush machine exactly and how does it work? You mean it flushes it out when you plug it in, how?
How do you know what would have fixed the transmission after the fact? Thats a pretty neat trick.
Less than 10% of the engine warranty claims involve the wrong oil or oil additives, the figure in the US is about 30%, although those figures include dealers or garages using the wrong oil
Proof on those numbers please. You toss out the 30% of US failures out with confidence.
Break that down for us. GM, Ford, chrysler, Toyota, Honda etc. That would be more than enlightening to see what engines are failing due to lube failure.
Originally Posted By: skyship
the fact that modern engines are very different to the old big blocks
What big blocks would these be? You throw this term around fast and loose now tell us what it is.
Just how big is the big block? Other than its displacement what makes it big block or a small block?
Is a 396 ci Chevy a big block? Is a 400 ci Chevy a big block?
Originally Posted By: skyship
get to see some auto box failures on occasions when they are back at the manufacturers and I was amused that they often find the owner kept using fluid additives when all that needed doing was a double fluid change or a session plugged into a flush machine.
Your were amused? What flush machine exactly and how does it work? You mean it flushes it out when you plug it in, how?
How do you know what would have fixed the transmission after the fact? Thats a pretty neat trick.
K guys,I've figured it out. Sunkship isn't some investigator. He is the guy who drives the truck to pick up the used oil. That's how he gets all his info. He makes these extraordinary claims because he is inside the office,catching half the story when he gets the shop to sign his pick up receipt.
When he worked in the marine industry it wasn't on engines,he was the cook and he was tinfoiling leftovers and putting them on the exhaust manifold to keep warm.
As far a his pilot experience goes he was the guy serving drinks.
See. Once you take exerpts from all his imaginary stories and put them together the real story can be put together.
I wonder when a mod it going to finally tire of his lies and ban him. I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet.
Sunklieship. You live in a fantasy world where your pathological lying has forced you into your parents basement,where you now invent a new life on the net,since your real life is ruined because people saw right thru you,as do we.
Your story changes daily. You make extraordinary claims that cannot be qualified,which proves you aren't qualified.
Please. Do us a favour and save us your lies,fabrications and spew. You are proving to be a pathological liar bordering on a sociopath. No one listens to you and we all pick apart every statement you make.
Perhaps starting over with a different user name in a DIFFERENT FORUM would be best for you. It saves us from reading the jokes that are your posts and since you have gotten a bit of lesson in oil since you've been here you might be able to pass yourself off as knowledgeable to people who don't know you.
Just trying to help you out bud.
When he worked in the marine industry it wasn't on engines,he was the cook and he was tinfoiling leftovers and putting them on the exhaust manifold to keep warm.
As far a his pilot experience goes he was the guy serving drinks.
See. Once you take exerpts from all his imaginary stories and put them together the real story can be put together.
I wonder when a mod it going to finally tire of his lies and ban him. I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet.
Sunklieship. You live in a fantasy world where your pathological lying has forced you into your parents basement,where you now invent a new life on the net,since your real life is ruined because people saw right thru you,as do we.
Your story changes daily. You make extraordinary claims that cannot be qualified,which proves you aren't qualified.
Please. Do us a favour and save us your lies,fabrications and spew. You are proving to be a pathological liar bordering on a sociopath. No one listens to you and we all pick apart every statement you make.
Perhaps starting over with a different user name in a DIFFERENT FORUM would be best for you. It saves us from reading the jokes that are your posts and since you have gotten a bit of lesson in oil since you've been here you might be able to pass yourself off as knowledgeable to people who don't know you.
Just trying to help you out bud.
I have put the 2 leading advocates of snake oil use on block, as you always get a few folks addicted to after market additives in every forum.
This is the UOA for a TDI using Mobil Turbo Truck 5/40 and it's interesting to see that it is also Moly free:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2682373#Post2682373
That means that the top full synthetics from Castrol, Liqui Moly, Amsoil and now Mobil are now Moly free. I will see if I can find a VOA of the top of the range Shell synthetic, as it will be interesting to see if they have followed the same trend.
Even Fuchs who are the biggest commercial engine oil company in Germany don't have any Moly in their GT1 race oil (This is a UOA but Moly does not burn off):
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2772102#Post2772102
This is the UOA for a TDI using Mobil Turbo Truck 5/40 and it's interesting to see that it is also Moly free:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2682373#Post2682373
That means that the top full synthetics from Castrol, Liqui Moly, Amsoil and now Mobil are now Moly free. I will see if I can find a VOA of the top of the range Shell synthetic, as it will be interesting to see if they have followed the same trend.
Even Fuchs who are the biggest commercial engine oil company in Germany don't have any Moly in their GT1 race oil (This is a UOA but Moly does not burn off):
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2772102#Post2772102
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Your ignorance is overwhelming. I think i will put you on block as well
OIL ADDITIVES
It seems from that link I am not alone in thinking snake oil use is a problem for modern engines. That article is well worth reading before spending money on any oil additive that does not have an engine manufacturers approval or recommendation.
I like part of the conclusion:
The major oil companies are some of the richest, most powerful and aggressive corporations in world. They own multi-million dollar research facilities manned by some of the best chemical engineers money can hire. It is probably safe to say that any one of them has the capabilities and resources at hand in marketing, distribution, advertising, research and product development equal to 20 times that of any of the independent additive companies. It therefore stands to reason that if any of these additive products were actually capable of improving the capabilities of engine lubricants, the major oil companies would have been able to determine that and to find some way to cash in on it. Yet of all the oil additives we found, none carried the name or endorsement of any of the major oil producers.
It seems from that link I am not alone in thinking snake oil use is a problem for modern engines. That article is well worth reading before spending money on any oil additive that does not have an engine manufacturers approval or recommendation.
I like part of the conclusion:
The major oil companies are some of the richest, most powerful and aggressive corporations in world. They own multi-million dollar research facilities manned by some of the best chemical engineers money can hire. It is probably safe to say that any one of them has the capabilities and resources at hand in marketing, distribution, advertising, research and product development equal to 20 times that of any of the independent additive companies. It therefore stands to reason that if any of these additive products were actually capable of improving the capabilities of engine lubricants, the major oil companies would have been able to determine that and to find some way to cash in on it. Yet of all the oil additives we found, none carried the name or endorsement of any of the major oil producers.
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Originally Posted By: skyship
Yet of all the oil additives we found, none carried the name or endorsement of any of the major oil producers.
Why would an oil producer endorse an additive made by a competitor of theirs? Some additives account for up to 20% of the sump capacity, that means up to 20% less oil sold by an oil company for that engine each time the oil is changed and an additive is used. They sure as He$$ don't want that, do they?
Yet of all the oil additives we found, none carried the name or endorsement of any of the major oil producers.
Why would an oil producer endorse an additive made by a competitor of theirs? Some additives account for up to 20% of the sump capacity, that means up to 20% less oil sold by an oil company for that engine each time the oil is changed and an additive is used. They sure as He$$ don't want that, do they?
What I think the author meant was they don't sell additives. If anyone knows of an additive sold by Castrol, Mobil or Shell I would be interested to know what it is, although they do make idle only pre OCI flushes.
Liqui Moly are a fairly big oil company and they do make a large range of oil additives, but their main markets are in the old Eastern block and with some local farmers. Those folks use cheap commercial engine oil that was designed for tractors and trucks, so they beef up the add pack to allow it to be used in a modern car, as importing good engine oil is far too expensive.
Liqui Moly are a fairly big oil company and they do make a large range of oil additives, but their main markets are in the old Eastern block and with some local farmers. Those folks use cheap commercial engine oil that was designed for tractors and trucks, so they beef up the add pack to allow it to be used in a modern car, as importing good engine oil is far too expensive.
Originally Posted By: Mystic
Well Skyship, if they make idle only engine flushes then I think you have to agree that at least those engine cleaners are apparently approved.
I know that Redline, Schaeffer's and Lubegard make engine oil supplements. Do they count?
Those idle only flushes are sold to Iffy lube chains that buy bulk oil. I have never seen the use of any type of flush chemical recommended or approved by an engine or vehicle manufacturer. I've even read through some sections of the new software programs developed by those companies recently to see what they say about cleaning a sludged engine and they just describe a full top and bottom clean followed by a short first OCI using an approved HM or full synthetic that has a lot of detergent and dispersants included, as do most good long life oils. The Iffy lube places don't deal with engines under warranty so they can do their own thing to some extent, although they have their own lists of lubricants they are supposed to use.
Well Skyship, if they make idle only engine flushes then I think you have to agree that at least those engine cleaners are apparently approved.
I know that Redline, Schaeffer's and Lubegard make engine oil supplements. Do they count?
Those idle only flushes are sold to Iffy lube chains that buy bulk oil. I have never seen the use of any type of flush chemical recommended or approved by an engine or vehicle manufacturer. I've even read through some sections of the new software programs developed by those companies recently to see what they say about cleaning a sludged engine and they just describe a full top and bottom clean followed by a short first OCI using an approved HM or full synthetic that has a lot of detergent and dispersants included, as do most good long life oils. The Iffy lube places don't deal with engines under warranty so they can do their own thing to some extent, although they have their own lists of lubricants they are supposed to use.
Originally Posted By: Mystic
Well Skyship, if they make idle only engine flushes then I think you have to agree that at least those engine cleaners are apparently approved.
I know that Redline, Schaeffer's and Lubegard make engine oil supplements. Do they count?
Approved by who, exactly?
So, what is the Ford approval number for the 4.6 3v. I know what it is for engine oil.
Well Skyship, if they make idle only engine flushes then I think you have to agree that at least those engine cleaners are apparently approved.
I know that Redline, Schaeffer's and Lubegard make engine oil supplements. Do they count?
Approved by who, exactly?
So, what is the Ford approval number for the 4.6 3v. I know what it is for engine oil.
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