What's the "BEST" spark plug?? (*not* platinum)
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Originally Posted By: Vikas
It does bug me when people refuse to do simple testing before believing in junk marketing.
I've done testing with E3 plugs in one-cylinder engines, and they do give more torque & HP. It's obvious when you're trying to push 200 pounds with a 33cc engine, that a difference between new plugs does, indeed, exist.
Also, there was a video I posted that showed HP increases with a dyno, for the non-believers. Here it is... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KHO8RUWpjM And a "marketing" comparison between the E3 and another plug... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62KavugC-5o
According to PandaBear, the ONLY thing that could really make any difference is the "air gap" and "surface (tip) size". Perhaps that is true, but they do work if you can find them in the proper heat range. Again, this is only from my experience with 1-cylinder engines.
Originally Posted By: Vikas
For example, if the smoke show from Seafoam is really cleaning your engine, then if you do the exact same procedure next week, there should be zero smoke.
That's exactly correct. Are you claiming that Seafoam WILL still smoke when pouring it in the intake, days after it was truly cleaned???
I have used Seafoam before, and it does precisely that. Smokes the first half a bottle. A week later, it smokes a quarter as much. Then another week later, there will be virtually no smoke [or, NOTHING compared to the first time].
The Seafoam is NOT what is smoking. The smoke is undoubtedly coming from carbon buildup.
Originally Posted By: Vikas
In life if you are not logical, rational, and do not have some understanding of statistics, you would be always at a disadvantage.
No doubt. But then there are people who would be so logical / rational as to ignore evidence staring them right in the face, as opposed to the logic / rationality of previous experiments, experience.
It does bug me when people refuse to do simple testing before believing in junk marketing.
I've done testing with E3 plugs in one-cylinder engines, and they do give more torque & HP. It's obvious when you're trying to push 200 pounds with a 33cc engine, that a difference between new plugs does, indeed, exist.
Also, there was a video I posted that showed HP increases with a dyno, for the non-believers. Here it is... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KHO8RUWpjM And a "marketing" comparison between the E3 and another plug... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62KavugC-5o
According to PandaBear, the ONLY thing that could really make any difference is the "air gap" and "surface (tip) size". Perhaps that is true, but they do work if you can find them in the proper heat range. Again, this is only from my experience with 1-cylinder engines.
Originally Posted By: Vikas
For example, if the smoke show from Seafoam is really cleaning your engine, then if you do the exact same procedure next week, there should be zero smoke.
That's exactly correct. Are you claiming that Seafoam WILL still smoke when pouring it in the intake, days after it was truly cleaned???
I have used Seafoam before, and it does precisely that. Smokes the first half a bottle. A week later, it smokes a quarter as much. Then another week later, there will be virtually no smoke [or, NOTHING compared to the first time].
The Seafoam is NOT what is smoking. The smoke is undoubtedly coming from carbon buildup.
Originally Posted By: Vikas
In life if you are not logical, rational, and do not have some understanding of statistics, you would be always at a disadvantage.
No doubt. But then there are people who would be so logical / rational as to ignore evidence staring them right in the face, as opposed to the logic / rationality of previous experiments, experience.
And finally, if you really believe, then it is true... for you.
E3 plugs are nothing revolutionary, just like the 'fire injectors' of the old daze.
Modern cars can spark off a pine log, the only engine that will benefit from a funky plug is one with a weak ignition. Hence the one lunger success.
E3 plugs are nothing revolutionary, just like the 'fire injectors' of the old daze.
Modern cars can spark off a pine log, the only engine that will benefit from a funky plug is one with a weak ignition. Hence the one lunger success.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Modern cars can spark off a pine log, the only engine that will benefit from a funky plug is one with a weak ignition. Hence the one lunger success.
That makes a ton of sense.
But then how do you explain, in the video, how the V8 w/ MSD ignition box.... "torque jumped from a 428 up to a 435"??
Sure, it's just a 1.6% gain. But you guys are saying spark plugs can NEVER present a gain, except by changing the air gap and electrode tip size. That's it. Perhaps that is the answer in this case, as well. I dunno.
I really just wanted to start this thread to share my findings of platinum plugs being garbage. But if your OEM plug is platinum, I would still move to an iridium-platinum plug. Just my personal choice. And after realizing copper plugs are actually coated with steel or nickel... if I were going for performance, I would go with the iridium-iridium plugs.
Perhaps the conductivity / resistivity makes absolutely no difference, but the thinner tips do seem to require less voltage for a stronger spark.
Modern cars can spark off a pine log, the only engine that will benefit from a funky plug is one with a weak ignition. Hence the one lunger success.
That makes a ton of sense.
But then how do you explain, in the video, how the V8 w/ MSD ignition box.... "torque jumped from a 428 up to a 435"??
Sure, it's just a 1.6% gain. But you guys are saying spark plugs can NEVER present a gain, except by changing the air gap and electrode tip size. That's it. Perhaps that is the answer in this case, as well. I dunno.
I really just wanted to start this thread to share my findings of platinum plugs being garbage. But if your OEM plug is platinum, I would still move to an iridium-platinum plug. Just my personal choice. And after realizing copper plugs are actually coated with steel or nickel... if I were going for performance, I would go with the iridium-iridium plugs.
Perhaps the conductivity / resistivity makes absolutely no difference, but the thinner tips do seem to require less voltage for a stronger spark.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: grndslm
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Modern cars can spark off a pine log, the only engine that will benefit from a funky plug is one with a weak ignition. Hence the one lunger success.
That makes a ton of sense.
But then how do you explain, in the video, how the V8 w/ MSD ignition box.... "torque jumped from a 428 up to a 435"??
Sure, it's just a 1.6% gain. But you guys are saying spark plugs can NEVER present a gain, except by changing the air gap and electrode tip size. That's it. Perhaps that is the answer in this case, as well. I dunno.
I really just wanted to start this thread to share my findings of platinum plugs being garbage. But if your OEM plug is platinum, I would still move to an iridium-platinum plug. Just my personal choice. And after realizing copper plugs are actually coated with steel or nickel... if I were going for performance, I would go with the iridium-iridium plugs.
Perhaps the conductivity / resistivity makes absolutely no difference, but the thinner tips do seem to require less voltage for a stronger spark.
That "jump" is within the margin of error for a dyno, FWIW.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Modern cars can spark off a pine log, the only engine that will benefit from a funky plug is one with a weak ignition. Hence the one lunger success.
That makes a ton of sense.
But then how do you explain, in the video, how the V8 w/ MSD ignition box.... "torque jumped from a 428 up to a 435"??
Sure, it's just a 1.6% gain. But you guys are saying spark plugs can NEVER present a gain, except by changing the air gap and electrode tip size. That's it. Perhaps that is the answer in this case, as well. I dunno.
I really just wanted to start this thread to share my findings of platinum plugs being garbage. But if your OEM plug is platinum, I would still move to an iridium-platinum plug. Just my personal choice. And after realizing copper plugs are actually coated with steel or nickel... if I were going for performance, I would go with the iridium-iridium plugs.
Perhaps the conductivity / resistivity makes absolutely no difference, but the thinner tips do seem to require less voltage for a stronger spark.
That "jump" is within the margin of error for a dyno, FWIW.
Originally Posted By: grndslm
But then how do you explain, in the video, how the V8 w/ MSD ignition box.... "torque jumped from a 428 up to a 435"??
New plugs have sharper tips and is easier to fire off, even if it is the same design, switching from a worn to new plug could reduce misfires enough to make a difference, and 1.6% can be margin of error like OVERKILL said.
Quote:
But you guys are saying spark plugs can NEVER present a gain, except by changing the air gap and electrode tip size. That's it.
It cannot present a gain when you look at a large number of samples and when designed right to begin with, and at the same condition of the plugs. So if the OEM engineers did screw up a design, and aftermarket of later OEM design remedy this with a different heat range, protrusion, tip size, tip material, then yes it can improve it. This happens once in a while when they found a plug is too hot or too cold, affecting emission or fuel economy that they didn't anticipate. But you cannot conclude that one material type is always going to be better than another with this finding.
Quote:
I really just wanted to start this thread to share my findings of platinum plugs being garbage. But if your OEM plug is platinum, I would still move to an iridium-platinum plug. Just my personal choice. And after realizing copper plugs are actually coated with steel or nickel... if I were going for performance, I would go with the iridium-iridium plugs.
Perhaps the conductivity / resistivity makes absolutely no difference, but the thinner tips do seem to require less voltage for a stronger spark.
I wouldn't call them garbage. Plug life vs material vs voltage vs tip size is a design choice that the engine designed with, so if your engine is not misfiring with existing design your plug is working fine and is not garbage.
You may gain something by switching (i.e. extending the life, reducing plug cost) but if you do not have problem with your original plugs and misfire you will not gain additional power, that's the fact.
But then how do you explain, in the video, how the V8 w/ MSD ignition box.... "torque jumped from a 428 up to a 435"??
New plugs have sharper tips and is easier to fire off, even if it is the same design, switching from a worn to new plug could reduce misfires enough to make a difference, and 1.6% can be margin of error like OVERKILL said.
Quote:
But you guys are saying spark plugs can NEVER present a gain, except by changing the air gap and electrode tip size. That's it.
It cannot present a gain when you look at a large number of samples and when designed right to begin with, and at the same condition of the plugs. So if the OEM engineers did screw up a design, and aftermarket of later OEM design remedy this with a different heat range, protrusion, tip size, tip material, then yes it can improve it. This happens once in a while when they found a plug is too hot or too cold, affecting emission or fuel economy that they didn't anticipate. But you cannot conclude that one material type is always going to be better than another with this finding.
Quote:
I really just wanted to start this thread to share my findings of platinum plugs being garbage. But if your OEM plug is platinum, I would still move to an iridium-platinum plug. Just my personal choice. And after realizing copper plugs are actually coated with steel or nickel... if I were going for performance, I would go with the iridium-iridium plugs.
Perhaps the conductivity / resistivity makes absolutely no difference, but the thinner tips do seem to require less voltage for a stronger spark.
I wouldn't call them garbage. Plug life vs material vs voltage vs tip size is a design choice that the engine designed with, so if your engine is not misfiring with existing design your plug is working fine and is not garbage.
You may gain something by switching (i.e. extending the life, reducing plug cost) but if you do not have problem with your original plugs and misfire you will not gain additional power, that's the fact.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
That "jump" is within the margin of error for a dyno, FWIW.
They tested the first set of plugs twice. And there was a 0.5 HP (or ft-lbs?) gain. NOT a 0.5 percent gain.
I'd have to believe that this crew had better equipment to measure this data than most would have.
A gain in torque of 7 ft-lbs, or 1.6%... after seeing a 0.1% gain in torque on the 2nd run of the original plugs... is nothing to sneeze at.
And I'd also have to believe that the original spark plugs they chose were fresh. There's no proof that the original spark plugs are brand new... but in the case of Horsepower TV taking a camera crew with several people who run dyno tests for a living, I would certainly hope that they wouldn't broadcast a result based on such an obvious flaws.
Without seeing the data, tho.... I believe that most of us are merely offering opinions at this point.
Anybody have dyno runs with multiple tests per plugs of various compositions and such on the same engine???
That "jump" is within the margin of error for a dyno, FWIW.
They tested the first set of plugs twice. And there was a 0.5 HP (or ft-lbs?) gain. NOT a 0.5 percent gain.
I'd have to believe that this crew had better equipment to measure this data than most would have.
A gain in torque of 7 ft-lbs, or 1.6%... after seeing a 0.1% gain in torque on the 2nd run of the original plugs... is nothing to sneeze at.
And I'd also have to believe that the original spark plugs they chose were fresh. There's no proof that the original spark plugs are brand new... but in the case of Horsepower TV taking a camera crew with several people who run dyno tests for a living, I would certainly hope that they wouldn't broadcast a result based on such an obvious flaws.
Without seeing the data, tho.... I believe that most of us are merely offering opinions at this point.
Anybody have dyno runs with multiple tests per plugs of various compositions and such on the same engine???
I have good luck with NGK. Iridium
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: grndslm
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
That "jump" is within the margin of error for a dyno, FWIW.
They tested the first set of plugs twice. And there was a 0.5 HP (or ft-lbs?) gain. NOT a 0.5 percent gain.
I'd have to believe that this crew had better equipment to measure this data than most would have.
A gain in torque of 7 ft-lbs, or 1.6%... after seeing a 0.1% gain in torque on the 2nd run of the original plugs... is nothing to sneeze at.
And I'd also have to believe that the original spark plugs they chose were fresh. There's no proof that the original spark plugs are brand new... but in the case of Horsepower TV taking a camera crew with several people who run dyno tests for a living, I would certainly hope that they wouldn't broadcast a result based on such an obvious flaws.
Without seeing the data, tho.... I believe that most of us are merely offering opinions at this point.
Anybody have dyno runs with multiple tests per plugs of various compositions and such on the same engine???
It's a sponsored show. Do you honestly expect them NOT to get the results they were shooting for?
I've re-gapped plugs between dyno runs and saw a few HP difference. It is NOISE.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
That "jump" is within the margin of error for a dyno, FWIW.
They tested the first set of plugs twice. And there was a 0.5 HP (or ft-lbs?) gain. NOT a 0.5 percent gain.
I'd have to believe that this crew had better equipment to measure this data than most would have.
A gain in torque of 7 ft-lbs, or 1.6%... after seeing a 0.1% gain in torque on the 2nd run of the original plugs... is nothing to sneeze at.
And I'd also have to believe that the original spark plugs they chose were fresh. There's no proof that the original spark plugs are brand new... but in the case of Horsepower TV taking a camera crew with several people who run dyno tests for a living, I would certainly hope that they wouldn't broadcast a result based on such an obvious flaws.
Without seeing the data, tho.... I believe that most of us are merely offering opinions at this point.
Anybody have dyno runs with multiple tests per plugs of various compositions and such on the same engine???
It's a sponsored show. Do you honestly expect them NOT to get the results they were shooting for?
I've re-gapped plugs between dyno runs and saw a few HP difference. It is NOISE.
^^^Absolutely!
Dynos are notoriously variable. The barometric pressure can drop and skew results in runs minutes apart.
Just the time it took to replace the plugs between runs cools the engine and allows more timing and thus power increases.
All the numbers quoted as gains are well within the margin of error.
Dynos are notoriously variable. The barometric pressure can drop and skew results in runs minutes apart.
Just the time it took to replace the plugs between runs cools the engine and allows more timing and thus power increases.
All the numbers quoted as gains are well within the margin of error.
Just for entertainment NGK has some info.
Originally Posted By: Vikas
For example, if the smoke show from Seafoam is really cleaning your engine, then if you do the exact same procedure next week, there should be zero smoke.
Originally Posted By: grndslm
That's exactly correct. Are you claiming that Seafoam WILL still smoke when pouring it in the intake, days after it was truly cleaned???
Really? Putting pale oil down the cat and in the exhaust wont smoke?
Try it on a brand new engine with a cat its going to smoke like my mothers frying pan.
Its pale oil, lighter fluid and alcohol, the pale oil is the smoke.
Edit: I looked at these E3 and they are Made in China.
I wouldn't put that junk near my engine if someone else bought them.
Nice thread on E3.
http://www.svrider.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-148537.html
Originally Posted By: Vikas
For example, if the smoke show from Seafoam is really cleaning your engine, then if you do the exact same procedure next week, there should be zero smoke.
Originally Posted By: grndslm
That's exactly correct. Are you claiming that Seafoam WILL still smoke when pouring it in the intake, days after it was truly cleaned???
Really? Putting pale oil down the cat and in the exhaust wont smoke?
Try it on a brand new engine with a cat its going to smoke like my mothers frying pan.
Its pale oil, lighter fluid and alcohol, the pale oil is the smoke.
Edit: I looked at these E3 and they are Made in China.
I wouldn't put that junk near my engine if someone else bought them.
Nice thread on E3.
http://www.svrider.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-148537.html
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: Vikas
For example, if the smoke show from Seafoam is really cleaning your engine, then if you do the exact same procedure next week, there should be zero smoke.
Originally Posted By: grndslm
That's exactly correct. Are you claiming that Seafoam WILL still smoke when pouring it in the intake, days after it was truly cleaned???
Really? Putting pale oil down the cat and in the exhaust wont smoke?
Try it on a brand new engine with a cat its going to smoke like my mothers frying pan.
Its pale oil, lighter fluid and alcohol, the pale oil is the smoke.
As I said, I have seen it with my own eyes. There is a point at which SeaFoam will NOT smoke anywhere close to the first time you use it on an engine with 200,000+ miles. There will be virtually no smoke. It does work when following the directions of putting it thru a vacuum line to the intake and letting it sit for 5 minutes or so. After doing it once a week, you will see a 90+% reduction in smoke, as well.
Just because you do it once on a "new" engine doesn't mean a whole lot, really. How many miles were on that engine? How long had it been sitting? I have also heard that manufacturers these days actually do a short break-in of each motor before putting in a special break-in oil just for the first owner.
Perhaps if you could do it two or three times on the same engine... THEN you'd have an experiment.
Originally Posted By: Trav
Nobody's debating that there's more than one spark fired each time. The E3 has a continuous ground electrode, as well.. so there's no reason to believe that it would fire more than once, anyway.
As was claimed earlier, air gap & electrode size are pretty much the only things that can be done to change spark.
Originally Posted By: Trav
Edit: I looked at these E3 and they are Made in China.
I wouldn't put that junk near my engine if someone else bought them.
Nice thread on E3.
http://www.svrider.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-148537.html
Yea, all that info about E3s just echos what I've already said. Primarily, they fail to create enough plugs that cover all the heat ranges needed by today's automobiles... but they do work great in 1-cylinder engines.
I didn't know they were made in China, tho.
But if all you care about is performance, and you can guarantee that one is made precisely for the heat range of your engine... it could be worth actually trying them FOR YOURSELF, compared to some "copper" NGKs or what have you.
Others have said that air gap is more important than metal.... so perhaps the E3s could even provide better results than the NGK Iridium IXs and the Denso Iridium Powers???
I don't know and won't believe either way until I see a few pulls for each plug on some dyno runs. But even then, that's not proof for everyone.
Originally Posted By: Vikas
For example, if the smoke show from Seafoam is really cleaning your engine, then if you do the exact same procedure next week, there should be zero smoke.
Originally Posted By: grndslm
That's exactly correct. Are you claiming that Seafoam WILL still smoke when pouring it in the intake, days after it was truly cleaned???
Really? Putting pale oil down the cat and in the exhaust wont smoke?
Try it on a brand new engine with a cat its going to smoke like my mothers frying pan.
Its pale oil, lighter fluid and alcohol, the pale oil is the smoke.
As I said, I have seen it with my own eyes. There is a point at which SeaFoam will NOT smoke anywhere close to the first time you use it on an engine with 200,000+ miles. There will be virtually no smoke. It does work when following the directions of putting it thru a vacuum line to the intake and letting it sit for 5 minutes or so. After doing it once a week, you will see a 90+% reduction in smoke, as well.
Just because you do it once on a "new" engine doesn't mean a whole lot, really. How many miles were on that engine? How long had it been sitting? I have also heard that manufacturers these days actually do a short break-in of each motor before putting in a special break-in oil just for the first owner.
Perhaps if you could do it two or three times on the same engine... THEN you'd have an experiment.
Originally Posted By: Trav
Nobody's debating that there's more than one spark fired each time. The E3 has a continuous ground electrode, as well.. so there's no reason to believe that it would fire more than once, anyway.
As was claimed earlier, air gap & electrode size are pretty much the only things that can be done to change spark.
Originally Posted By: Trav
Edit: I looked at these E3 and they are Made in China.
I wouldn't put that junk near my engine if someone else bought them.
Nice thread on E3.
http://www.svrider.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-148537.html
Yea, all that info about E3s just echos what I've already said. Primarily, they fail to create enough plugs that cover all the heat ranges needed by today's automobiles... but they do work great in 1-cylinder engines.
I didn't know they were made in China, tho.
But if all you care about is performance, and you can guarantee that one is made precisely for the heat range of your engine... it could be worth actually trying them FOR YOURSELF, compared to some "copper" NGKs or what have you.
Others have said that air gap is more important than metal.... so perhaps the E3s could even provide better results than the NGK Iridium IXs and the Denso Iridium Powers???
I don't know and won't believe either way until I see a few pulls for each plug on some dyno runs. But even then, that's not proof for everyone.
I started looking for dyno tests that changed spark plugs only, and there were a few tests done by SparkPlugs.com that can be found on various forums. The results mostly confirmed that, for the most part, there is a fairly wide margin of error in plugs. So dyno tests won't really be able to tell you much about the plug.
But I did run across some cool videos...
That last plug looks pretty cool, until you see it in action (I guess it doesn't get INSIDE the air/fuel mix enough to fully combust??
And I've heard many people say that PowerStar plugs were [censored], but I never actually saw what the plug looked like until this video...
I'll be sticking with NGK or Denso in my vehicles, but I like outside the box thinking...
But I did run across some cool videos...
That last plug looks pretty cool, until you see it in action (I guess it doesn't get INSIDE the air/fuel mix enough to fully combust??
And I've heard many people say that PowerStar plugs were [censored], but I never actually saw what the plug looked like until this video...
I'll be sticking with NGK or Denso in my vehicles, but I like outside the box thinking...
Originally Posted By: grndslm
I'll be sticking with NGK or Denso in my vehicles, but I like outside the box thinking...
About your video, human eyes are too slow to see whether a plug is working right or not. You need to use an oscilloscope with hall sensor or some extremely high voltage capable sensor to see whether the plug fired, at what voltage, and repeat for a lot of cycles to see whether it really works or not.
Also, every plug would fire at atmospheric pressure. Try that with a running engine at higher compression with fuel mist, high throttle, faster interval so the ignition coil has to repeat firing much faster, at higher temperature, then report back and see how they work.
Every coil can only fire one arc at a time, you see many arc all over the place in video, but they are just one arc at a time in still photo. After the arc developed, the resistance in the ionized air is so low that it is like a short circuit, that current will go right through and no more voltage difference between electrodes to develop another arc until another cycle.
I'll be sticking with NGK or Denso in my vehicles, but I like outside the box thinking...
About your video, human eyes are too slow to see whether a plug is working right or not. You need to use an oscilloscope with hall sensor or some extremely high voltage capable sensor to see whether the plug fired, at what voltage, and repeat for a lot of cycles to see whether it really works or not.
Also, every plug would fire at atmospheric pressure. Try that with a running engine at higher compression with fuel mist, high throttle, faster interval so the ignition coil has to repeat firing much faster, at higher temperature, then report back and see how they work.
Every coil can only fire one arc at a time, you see many arc all over the place in video, but they are just one arc at a time in still photo. After the arc developed, the resistance in the ionized air is so low that it is like a short circuit, that current will go right through and no more voltage difference between electrodes to develop another arc until another cycle.
The best spark plugs for any car are the ones that the manufacturer of your car makes and recommends for your car (Original Equipment).... PERIOD!
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
And finally, if you really believe, then it is true... for you.
E3 plugs are nothing revolutionary, just like the 'fire injectors' of the old daze.
Modern cars can spark off a pine log, the only engine that will benefit from a funky plug is one with a weak ignition. Hence the one lunger success.
The exception that proves that rule is the Mazda Wankel Rotary.
It has multi-electrode plugs and yet has a modern ignition. Of course there is the problem with flame propogation at the trailing end of the combustion chamber inherent in rotaries, hence the two funky plugs per chamber.
The only fancy plug that didn't work okay for me were AC Rapidfires. I do not know if the AC sales rep just gave me a bum set or they just won't work on a Suzuki G13 4 cylinder. Started and idled fine but felt like there was a bunch of rags stuffed into the intake when you tried to accelerate. But I didn't pay for them and the 'Zook was stupid easy to change plugs on. No harm. Just didn't end up pushing his product as enthusiastically as he hoped I would.
I say the fancy plugs worked okay. Just okay. I actually prefer Bosch Supers over Bosch Platinum +4s.
And finally, if you really believe, then it is true... for you.
E3 plugs are nothing revolutionary, just like the 'fire injectors' of the old daze.
Modern cars can spark off a pine log, the only engine that will benefit from a funky plug is one with a weak ignition. Hence the one lunger success.
The exception that proves that rule is the Mazda Wankel Rotary.
It has multi-electrode plugs and yet has a modern ignition. Of course there is the problem with flame propogation at the trailing end of the combustion chamber inherent in rotaries, hence the two funky plugs per chamber.
The only fancy plug that didn't work okay for me were AC Rapidfires. I do not know if the AC sales rep just gave me a bum set or they just won't work on a Suzuki G13 4 cylinder. Started and idled fine but felt like there was a bunch of rags stuffed into the intake when you tried to accelerate. But I didn't pay for them and the 'Zook was stupid easy to change plugs on. No harm. Just didn't end up pushing his product as enthusiastically as he hoped I would.
I say the fancy plugs worked okay. Just okay. I actually prefer Bosch Supers over Bosch Platinum +4s.
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
And finally, if you really believe, then it is true... for you.
E3 plugs are nothing revolutionary, just like the 'fire injectors' of the old daze.
Modern cars can spark off a pine log, the only engine that will benefit from a funky plug is one with a weak ignition. Hence the one lunger success.
The exception that proves that rule is the Mazda Wankel Rotary.
It has multi-electrode plugs and yet has a modern ignition. Of course there is the problem with flame propogation at the trailing end of the combustion chamber inherent in rotaries, hence the two funky plugs per chamber.
The only fancy plug that didn't work okay for me were AC Rapidfires. I do not know if the AC sales rep just gave me a bum set or they just won't work on a Suzuki G13 4 cylinder. Started and idled fine but felt like there was a bunch of rags stuffed into the intake when you tried to accelerate. But I didn't pay for them and the 'Zook was stupid easy to change plugs on. No harm. Just didn't end up pushing his product as enthusiastically as he hoped I would.
I say the fancy plugs worked okay. Just okay. I actually prefer Bosch Supers over Bosch Platinum +4s.
Rotaries have always had flame propagation issues, it's an inherent problem with the swept area creating a moving combustion chamber.
Heck, my 6.1 has two plugs per cylinder. Many think it's some kind of improvement when what it really is is an admission of poor real world emissions performance!
I used to spend a lot of time standing next to a dyno, they are simply not capable of the resolution required to detect the extremely small variations in HP and efficiency that are being spoken of here by the E3 fans.
But I can guarantee you that if it was any good at improving emissions, power, or economy it would be standard equipment in someone's cars.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
And finally, if you really believe, then it is true... for you.
E3 plugs are nothing revolutionary, just like the 'fire injectors' of the old daze.
Modern cars can spark off a pine log, the only engine that will benefit from a funky plug is one with a weak ignition. Hence the one lunger success.
The exception that proves that rule is the Mazda Wankel Rotary.
It has multi-electrode plugs and yet has a modern ignition. Of course there is the problem with flame propogation at the trailing end of the combustion chamber inherent in rotaries, hence the two funky plugs per chamber.
The only fancy plug that didn't work okay for me were AC Rapidfires. I do not know if the AC sales rep just gave me a bum set or they just won't work on a Suzuki G13 4 cylinder. Started and idled fine but felt like there was a bunch of rags stuffed into the intake when you tried to accelerate. But I didn't pay for them and the 'Zook was stupid easy to change plugs on. No harm. Just didn't end up pushing his product as enthusiastically as he hoped I would.
I say the fancy plugs worked okay. Just okay. I actually prefer Bosch Supers over Bosch Platinum +4s.
Rotaries have always had flame propagation issues, it's an inherent problem with the swept area creating a moving combustion chamber.
Heck, my 6.1 has two plugs per cylinder. Many think it's some kind of improvement when what it really is is an admission of poor real world emissions performance!
I used to spend a lot of time standing next to a dyno, they are simply not capable of the resolution required to detect the extremely small variations in HP and efficiency that are being spoken of here by the E3 fans.
But I can guarantee you that if it was any good at improving emissions, power, or economy it would be standard equipment in someone's cars.
I don't know on the two plugs per cylinder thing. Seems like everybody has flirted with that at least once.
When Suzuki and Honda went to 16 valve engines, Kawasaki just stuck an extra set of spark plugs in their DOHC 8 valve engine. Seems like Eddie Lawson was pretty competitive on the KZ1000R.
Nissan had the CA-series and NAPS-Z dual plug engines, Porsche used two spark plugs per cylinder, Ford stuck an extra set on the Lima 2.3/2.5....etc...probably for emissions purposes
At least on the Kawasaki, it was for performance.
When Suzuki and Honda went to 16 valve engines, Kawasaki just stuck an extra set of spark plugs in their DOHC 8 valve engine. Seems like Eddie Lawson was pretty competitive on the KZ1000R.
Nissan had the CA-series and NAPS-Z dual plug engines, Porsche used two spark plugs per cylinder, Ford stuck an extra set on the Lima 2.3/2.5....etc...probably for emissions purposes
At least on the Kawasaki, it was for performance.
Actually it is compensation for poor head design.
Top specific output engines these days do not use or need dual ignition sources.
Many do use multiple spark delivery per combustion event though. I'm sure we'll see more of this as regs get tougher.
Top specific output engines these days do not use or need dual ignition sources.
Many do use multiple spark delivery per combustion event though. I'm sure we'll see more of this as regs get tougher.
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Originally Posted By: Spazdog
I don't know on the two plugs per cylinder thing. Seems like everybody has flirted with that at least once.
When Suzuki and Honda went to 16 valve engines, Kawasaki just stuck an extra set of spark plugs in their DOHC 8 valve engine. Seems like Eddie Lawson was pretty competitive on the KZ1000R.
Nissan had the CA-series and NAPS-Z dual plug engines, Porsche used two spark plugs per cylinder, Ford stuck an extra set on the Lima 2.3/2.5....etc...probably for emissions purposes
At least on the Kawasaki, it was for performance.
The idea of phased dual ignition is nothing new. The idea is to improve flame front propagation on an engine that may suffer from issues in this respect and historically it has applied to engines with big bores.
My grandfather's best friend had a 38 foot Minett launch that was owned by Timothy Eaton. It was powered by a massive German 4-cylinder made by Van Blerck. It looked similar to this:
And here's the boat:
The engine had two distributors, one for each set of plugs. The one distributor was slightly out of phase with the other to aide in flame front propagation across the bore, which was an issue on this engine, as its pistons were roughly the size of dinner plates.
It was a really cool engine! Gravity-fed oiling, manual ignition advance, and a giant brass "splash" tray to catch the oil that made its way through the engine.
I don't know on the two plugs per cylinder thing. Seems like everybody has flirted with that at least once.
When Suzuki and Honda went to 16 valve engines, Kawasaki just stuck an extra set of spark plugs in their DOHC 8 valve engine. Seems like Eddie Lawson was pretty competitive on the KZ1000R.
Nissan had the CA-series and NAPS-Z dual plug engines, Porsche used two spark plugs per cylinder, Ford stuck an extra set on the Lima 2.3/2.5....etc...probably for emissions purposes
At least on the Kawasaki, it was for performance.
The idea of phased dual ignition is nothing new. The idea is to improve flame front propagation on an engine that may suffer from issues in this respect and historically it has applied to engines with big bores.
My grandfather's best friend had a 38 foot Minett launch that was owned by Timothy Eaton. It was powered by a massive German 4-cylinder made by Van Blerck. It looked similar to this:
And here's the boat:
The engine had two distributors, one for each set of plugs. The one distributor was slightly out of phase with the other to aide in flame front propagation across the bore, which was an issue on this engine, as its pistons were roughly the size of dinner plates.
It was a really cool engine! Gravity-fed oiling, manual ignition advance, and a giant brass "splash" tray to catch the oil that made its way through the engine.
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