What would be an acceptable charge time at a fast charger for you?

[Cujet]

Filled my 09 F150 with 36 gal tank at Costco today. In honor of this thread, I timed it. 2 minutes, 53 seconds from Credit Card Chip read to fully topped off, clicked the handle 3 times. 27 gallons total. About 500 miles range full to empty at 14MPG. The MPG it gets at 85mph.

It is possible to get 16MPG if I use non ethanol fuel and go 70.

My wife and I discussed an EV pickup truck, as both of us like EV's and would really enjoy NOT having to stop for fuel twice a week. But for our uses, where we drive all over the place, it does not fit our needs. Even in retirement and no work related travel, we are likely to travel by truck, with our mean 'ol dog.

The idea of a FL (or TN) trip to see family in Vermont in any EV, with the necessary 13 long stops, is nonsense. Especially when the 2018 F150 can do that trip in 2 fuel stops.

 

[KrisZ]

Is that some sort of meditative mantra?

Actually - I'm an electrical engineer although I don't necessarily deal with Ohm's Law on a regular basis. My little piece of the puzzle is about 1s and 0s. And digital switching speed is more or less about RC delays than anything else.

Sometimes it gets a little bit weird though. I had a job interview several years ago where the interviewer let me in early while he was still interviewing a new grad candidate. I didn't intervene, but he was asking a fairly simple question and I would have thought one that a new grad would have seen but that an experienced candidate might not have thought about for years. But after the guy left I answered it pretty easily. It was really about explaining what's in an static RAM cell, which is just 6 transistors. Basically two cross-coupled inverters and two pass transistors. I barely thought about it over the years but remembered that.

Transistor switching or straight up current going though a copper wire, it doesn't matter, there will be resistance and there will be heat produced.

Saying "I want a full charge in 5 minutes" is similar to saying "I want a 10GHz processor in my laptop". Could it be done, yes, but not in the way most envision it.

 

[y_p_w]

Transistor switching or straight up current going though a copper wire, it doesn't matter, there will be resistance and there will be heat produced.

Saying "I want a full charge in 5 minutes" is similar to saying "I want a 10GHz processor in my laptop". Could it be done, yes, but not in the way most envision it.

That is one of the issues. If you halve the feature size, that's increasing the density although it uses less energy per transistor. But overall it more energy density, which is why the voltage may go down.

We're approaching the point where shrinking feature size is hitting the limits of the size of an atom. Can't get any smaller than that. But for performance it's been far more about architecture and now transport speed with maybe photonics.

 

[Torrid]

I'm impatient. I like my EV for not having to stop at gas stations, but I mostly drive the GTI when I'm by myself because if I have to drive far by myself I really don't want to wait for charging. It's not a big deal with the family. Stops are long with kids so it's not a loss then.

To actually answer the question I could live with 10 minutes. Even then I've never plugged in publicly for more than 15 minutes to get home.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I'm inpatient. I like my EV for not having to stop at gas stations, but I mostly drive the GTI when I'm by myself because if I have to drive far by myself I really don't want to wait for charging. It's not a big deal with the family. Stops are long with kids so it's not a loss then.

I will probably drive to our place in Petaluma tomorrow. Thru The City, over the GG to the beautiful Petaluma valley. 90 miles.
I will stop on the way home for 5 to 10 minutes and grab a coffee. Or just charge to 95% and not stop at all.

My Tundra costs about $45 as gas has come down...

 

[andrew_j]

Those recent news stories you refer to involve people going out in very cold temperatures with < 25% charge and then having to wait for a charge. Would you go out in zero degree weather in your ICE with less than a 1/4 tank? Persoanlly I think either scenario is just asking for trouble.

Just remember that duct tape can't fix stupid, but it can muffle the sound.

Furthermore were some chargers were broken making the available chargers less finally coupled to slower charge rates(condition time cold battery) so lines got nutty.

People will learn maybe for next time?

 

[Sedin26]

People will learn maybe for next time?

I can confirm that they will not.

 

[billt460]

It's very difficult for people to accept less convenience than they already have in the marketplace. They simply don't want to be bothered. And there is no way that you can put 400+ miles of range into a Lithium Ion battery in the same time it takes to fill a gas tank.

So until they come up with better batteries, EV sales will not advance much above what they are now. Because they don't offer anywhere near what a similar ICE vehicle can. Especially in frigid weather.

Technology has to move forward to attract new customers, by offering them more.... Not backwards by offering them less. Which is exactly where EV's are currently.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Gas usage is fairly even because almost everyone buys gas at a station. Charger demand is not because everyone charges at home when possible. So on a holiday or whatever there isn't enough capacity. Not even close.

The lengthy charge time is part of it, but there will never be enough chargers for peak without massive subsidies. You have to invest in something that is only used a small percentage of the time. If its going to be a super fast charger, its always going to be super expensive.

Of course we have had these things called internal combustion engines for the last 100 years, which I could put hundreds of miles of energy in within a couple minutes, and that energy can sit in stockpile for months until needed, so there is no demand or duck curve. Everything else seems like going backwards.

Yes I could do all these things to accommodate using an EV. Because I can doesn't make it efficient.

 

[demarpaint]

Technology has to move forward to attract new customers, by offering them more.... Not backwards by offering them less. Which is exactly where EV's are currently.

That pretty much sums it up for me. When an EV can charge as fast as I can fill my tank and take me as far as a tank of gas can, I'll consider that a step in the right direction. Having said that I still wouldn't own one though. There's battery issues, cold weather performance, and the added cost to insure them that would have to come in line with ICE.

 

[BISCUT]

Those recent news stories you refer to involve people going out in very cold temperatures with < 25% charge and then having to wait for a charge. Would you go out in zero degree weather in your ICE with less than a 1/4 tank? Persoanlly I think either scenario is just asking for trouble.

Just remember that duct tape can't fix stupid, but it can muffle the sound.

Um, ya I sure would and do go out in multiple ICE vehicles with less than 1/4 tank. Not the best practice but nothing to fret. 5F a few days ago here and I took my 17yr old's RAV4 in for tires. I wasn't thrilled to see he was at 1/4 tank as I tell him all the time, don't run the tank low ever, especially in winter. Maybe years past but I don't see any halfway maintained ICE vehicle choking in 0F due to 1/4 tank or less gas; unless empty!

I was digging into this a bit and I read the DOE allows a multiplication factor of efficiency for EV's that is not allowed for ICE. I haven't had a chance to look up the rule in Fed Reg so it may not be accurate. I will try to get the time today to do so. If you beat me to it, please reply. Maybe someone else knows?

There have been stories of EV's failing to meet printed range rates in the news. Maybe this is part of it? Not sure.

 

[Ws6]

EV battery companies are working to make batteries last longer, hold more energy, and charge faster.

What do you feel is an acceptable charging time if you use a fast charger?

I would like to see a 10-15 minute charge window myself.

Ive had a C40 and EV6 GT. The C40 would, real world, do 20-80 in about 35 minutes. The GT does it in 20 or less. Its meaningful to me because I can get drinks, snacks, bathroom break done in 15-20 at busy places. 35 sees me waiting around to finish charging.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Um, ya I sure would and do go out in multiple ICE vehicles with less than 1/4 tank. Not the best practice but nothing to fret. 5F a few days ago here and I took my 17yr old's RAV4 in for tires. I wasn't thrilled to see he was at 1/4 tank as I tell him all the time, don't run the tank low ever, especially in winter. Maybe years past but I don't see any halfway maintained ICE vehicle choking in 0F due to 1/4 tank or less gas; unless empty!

I was digging into this a bit and I read the DOE allows a multiplication factor of efficiency for EV's that is not allowed for ICE. I haven't had a chance to look up the rule in Fed Reg so it may not be accurate. I will try to get the time today to do so. If you beat me to it, please reply. Maybe someone else knows?

There have been stories of EV's failing to meet printed range rates in the news. Maybe this is part of it? Not sure.

The EPA range tests are a City test until the battery is depleted, then a Highway test until the battery is depleted, there weighted and combined. The big issue for EV's might be that HVAC is not used for either of those tests at all, which would inherently render them inaccurate. The test tracks also contain no hills,

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml

https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/f...esting provides,vehicle can drive no further.

 

[LDB]

EV's are a good idea and a good product. At least one and maybe two generations from now. Today they are political ploys helping push agendas in spite of not being ready for prime time.

 

[FlyingVan]

To me charge time does not matter much. I would own a gas car and an electric car and use them appropriately. Just like I have multiple tools in my tool bag to do different jobs.

I don't own an electric car yet for 2 reasons. They are still too expensive and they are not available.

I wanted to buy a Chevrolet Bolt about a year ago but couldn't even find one to look at and drive around. Ended up buying a used Prius that gets 65 mpg and has a range of about 600 miles. I'm not interested in an expensive EV. Couldn't care less about the big touch screen that opens the glove box. I can open a glove box how I've done it for 40 years. All I need is a cheap car that has heat and ac with about 250 miles of range. No fast charging needed, it will be slow charged at home every night. Until they come up with something like this and mass produce them I will probably not own one. And there are lots of people like me.

And for those that can't charge one at home, sorry. EVs are not for you. Not everyone has to have an EV, regardless of what the big guys are telling us.

 

[Astro14]

I think we really need to scope the question, this one applies to lengthy road trips in an EV.

It doesn’t really apply to the around town use of the car.

so, if I were to answer the question in the context of a long road trip, in which I’m getting close to the vehicle maximum range, I would like it to be around 15 minutes.

Which is enough time to stretch my legs, visit the restroom, wait in line at Starbucks, and get back to the car.

Even even though the act of putting 30 gallons in the Tundra ( or S600) only takes a couple of minutes, I still do all of the above, so a typical stop for me is about 15 minutes.

A 15 minute charge time, and a sufficient network of fast charging stations, removes all my objections to an EV on long range trips.

Around town, I would simply charge at home. I’ve got 240 V in my garage to run the woodworking machinery. Not that hard to add an electric charger, and charge overnight. As others have said, pulling a cord out of my garage, plugging the car in, and then walking inside, or way easier than stopping at any local gas station.

For around town, I think the EV has the advantage.

 

[UncleDave]

15-20 minutes. That's what it takes me anyway. I already combine my stops.

I rarely to never stop just for fuel, I stop, walk inside, go to the bathroom, refill a coffee, pay cash for my fuel, and walk back out then fill the rig while reading text or emails.

Lots of guys claim they only take 5 min to fuel - but then they stop for lunch, stop at a rest station, stop for coffee, stop for the dog, stop for a stretch....

 

[billt460]

Here's the problem with 15-20 minutes. It's longer than you think. At morning rush hour it would turn most charging stations into a quagmire. The charging stations would become backed up. People can't wait. At 20 minutes with one charging, and 2 waiting means 1 hour.

Who has an hour of leeway going to work? And not everyone can or does charge at home. It's an expensive installation, and might not even be able to be done without upgrading electrical service on many older homes with limited amp service.

If these things start making up 40% or 50% of the market it would become a real mess. The whole idea of getting charged going to, or coming home from work will become a time consuming nightmare.

All of this means people are going to have allocate additional time from their day to charge their car. Most won't. Not if they can buy an ICE vehicle that they can fill in 5 minutes or less, and drive all week, or longer.

 

[billt460]

We waste enough of our lives behind the wheel. According to this we spend 6 months out of a lifetime waiting for redlights to turn green. Now we have to pile days or even months more on top of that, to even get to a red light? No thanks.

https://maltadaily.mt/the-average-p...tudy conducted,for traffic signals to change.

 

[UncleDave]

Here's the problem with 15-20 minutes. It's longer than you think. At morning rush hour it would turn most charging stations into a quagmire. The charging stations would become backed up. People can't wait. At 20 minutes with one charging, and 2 waiting means 1 hour.

Who has an hour of leeway going to work? And not everyone can or does charge at home. It's an expensive installation, and might not even be able to be done without upgrading electrical service on many older homes with limited amp service.

If these things start making up 40% or 50% of the market it would become a real mess. The whole idea of getting charged going to, or coming home from work will become a time consuming nightmare.

All of this means people are going to have allocate additional time from their day to charge their car. Most won't. Not if they can buy an ICE vehicle that they can fill in 5 minutes or less, and drive all week, or longer.

The commuter/ going to work isnt where you have the problem you describe because the car is full every morning and can easily make the commute with tons of range left over.

The EV is less convenient on a road trip, but way more convenient in day to day use.