what oil, Pontiac 455 for best bearing protection
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Originally Posted By: ws6formula
I know Pontiacs with larger journals (and cast rods?) could be a bit more prone to spinning bearings.
I was hoping to get an oil (if possible) that could offer better protection against main and rod bearings spinning and protects my thrust bearing. I was thinking - get an oil that has a stronger oil film? or an oil film that resists breaking down better?
I reccomend Mobil 1 15w-50. I use it in all the classic cars I've restored, and have never had any engine / oil issues. It will provide exceptional protection for someone in your situation. I've ran my Ford engines flat out at 6,500 to 7,000 rpm for as long as a tank of gas would last, which is generally 130 miles. And I've repeated that high speed endurance run numerous times. Do you think your engine will,get treated more harshly than that ? Probably not. I started using it about 19 years ago. So far so good.
As far as your thermostat goes, do not run your engine with a 160 degree thermostat, that is way too cold. 180 should be considered a minimum.
Z
I know Pontiacs with larger journals (and cast rods?) could be a bit more prone to spinning bearings.
I was hoping to get an oil (if possible) that could offer better protection against main and rod bearings spinning and protects my thrust bearing. I was thinking - get an oil that has a stronger oil film? or an oil film that resists breaking down better?
I reccomend Mobil 1 15w-50. I use it in all the classic cars I've restored, and have never had any engine / oil issues. It will provide exceptional protection for someone in your situation. I've ran my Ford engines flat out at 6,500 to 7,000 rpm for as long as a tank of gas would last, which is generally 130 miles. And I've repeated that high speed endurance run numerous times. Do you think your engine will,get treated more harshly than that ? Probably not. I started using it about 19 years ago. So far so good.
As far as your thermostat goes, do not run your engine with a 160 degree thermostat, that is way too cold. 180 should be considered a minimum.
Z
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Originally Posted By: zray
As far as your thermostat goes, do not run your engine with a 160 degree thermostat, that is way too cold. 180 should be considered a minimum.
Z
+1.
There have been engineering papers on this as well. Running too cold a thermostat increases wear and deposit build-up.
As far as your thermostat goes, do not run your engine with a 160 degree thermostat, that is way too cold. 180 should be considered a minimum.
Z
+1.
There have been engineering papers on this as well. Running too cold a thermostat increases wear and deposit build-up.
Originally Posted By: clinebarger
The oil itself is not the reason Pontiac engine spin bearings, The large Main & Rod journal diameters is the main culprit.
Your ahead of the game using a 3" 400 main bearing vs a 455 main size of 3.25".
Does is still have the stock 2.25 rods? Or do you have 2.20" big block chevy rods?
If your still running Pontiac rod journal diameter.....Stop spinning it over 5,000 RPM, 4,800 RPM would be an ideal redline. At 5,500 rpm....The journal to bearing speed is atrocious.
Right, that's what I've heard before on the Pontiac forums. But there's a guy here with turbine experience, who seems to think engines work the same way, who says bigger bearings are always better. I'd like to understand it better. I know the long stroke is a problem too with the centrifugal forces on the oil.
4800 rpm is hard to take. I spin my chev to 6500 and it sounds so freeking good.
The oil itself is not the reason Pontiac engine spin bearings, The large Main & Rod journal diameters is the main culprit.
Your ahead of the game using a 3" 400 main bearing vs a 455 main size of 3.25".
Does is still have the stock 2.25 rods? Or do you have 2.20" big block chevy rods?
If your still running Pontiac rod journal diameter.....Stop spinning it over 5,000 RPM, 4,800 RPM would be an ideal redline. At 5,500 rpm....The journal to bearing speed is atrocious.
Right, that's what I've heard before on the Pontiac forums. But there's a guy here with turbine experience, who seems to think engines work the same way, who says bigger bearings are always better. I'd like to understand it better. I know the long stroke is a problem too with the centrifugal forces on the oil.
4800 rpm is hard to take. I spin my chev to 6500 and it sounds so freeking good.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Right, that's what I've heard before on the Pontiac forums. But there's a guy here with turbine experience, who seems to think engines work the same way, who says bigger bearings are always better. I'd like to understand it better. I know the long stroke is a problem too with the centrifugal forces on the oil.
Bash it trolltlevette...you comprehend a fraction of what I post, then verbal me with your twisted strawmen...no wonder your name is usually next to "banned" on other forums.
Right, that's what I've heard before on the Pontiac forums. But there's a guy here with turbine experience, who seems to think engines work the same way, who says bigger bearings are always better. I'd like to understand it better. I know the long stroke is a problem too with the centrifugal forces on the oil.
Bash it trolltlevette...you comprehend a fraction of what I post, then verbal me with your twisted strawmen...no wonder your name is usually next to "banned" on other forums.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Right, that's what I've heard before on the Pontiac forums. But there's a guy here with turbine experience, who seems to think engines work the same way, who says bigger bearings are always better. I'd like to understand it better. I know the long stroke is a problem too with the centrifugal forces on the oil.
Bash it trolltlevette...you comprehend a fraction of what I post, then verbal me with your twisted strawmen...no wonder your name is usually next to "banned" on other forums.
Hehehe
Awesome.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Right, that's what I've heard before on the Pontiac forums. But there's a guy here with turbine experience, who seems to think engines work the same way, who says bigger bearings are always better. I'd like to understand it better. I know the long stroke is a problem too with the centrifugal forces on the oil.
Bash it trolltlevette...you comprehend a fraction of what I post, then verbal me with your twisted strawmen...no wonder your name is usually next to "banned" on other forums.
Hehehe
Awesome.
Originally Posted By: ws6formula
Thanks for all the replies and good information
.
Q: What are valve springs seat pressures ?
A: I am using Comp Cams 995 valve springs. My roller cam has approx. .550" of lift on intake and exhaust. 115 lbs @ 1.700" installed height, 336 lbs @ 1.150
.
Q: What thermostat ?
A: Need to doublecheck, I thought it was a 160 degree (or 180 at most)
.
Q: What rear main seal ?
A: I am using a newer style (called graphtite) rear main seal from Best Gasket, http://www.bestgasket.com/about_our_products.asp
.
Q: What con rods ?
A: I am using aftermarket eagle rods, 6.8" in length, with 2.20" journal.
The main journals are 3.00"
.
I am almost a bit scared to run a synthetic. But, it sounds like many successfully use and recommend synthetics in these type of engines.
Excellent motor, do not run light oil in it. I raced many of these and we liked the 400 better, that long stroke 455 gets great power at lower rpm but seems to come unglued once in a while. I like that 15w-50 that Zray suggested. But these aren't Ford small blocks either!
5500 rpm is not outrageous, and note that big cams don't do much without some expensive cylinder head work or a couple of Super Duty heads...
Thanks for all the replies and good information
.
Q: What are valve springs seat pressures ?
A: I am using Comp Cams 995 valve springs. My roller cam has approx. .550" of lift on intake and exhaust. 115 lbs @ 1.700" installed height, 336 lbs @ 1.150
.
Q: What thermostat ?
A: Need to doublecheck, I thought it was a 160 degree (or 180 at most)
.
Q: What rear main seal ?
A: I am using a newer style (called graphtite) rear main seal from Best Gasket, http://www.bestgasket.com/about_our_products.asp
.
Q: What con rods ?
A: I am using aftermarket eagle rods, 6.8" in length, with 2.20" journal.
The main journals are 3.00"
.
I am almost a bit scared to run a synthetic. But, it sounds like many successfully use and recommend synthetics in these type of engines.
Excellent motor, do not run light oil in it. I raced many of these and we liked the 400 better, that long stroke 455 gets great power at lower rpm but seems to come unglued once in a while. I like that 15w-50 that Zray suggested. But these aren't Ford small blocks either!
5500 rpm is not outrageous, and note that big cams don't do much without some expensive cylinder head work or a couple of Super Duty heads...
Originally Posted By: spasm3
With an open seat pressure of 336 i might run a high zinc hdeo. With a temp of 160 a 30wt would do. Amsoil makes a HDD in 5w 30 thats a heavy duty diesel oil.
I think this is the best advice so far, with M1 0W-40 a close second. The Amsoil HDD is some stout oil, and you can likely run it for two years with a decent long life filter.
With an open seat pressure of 336 i might run a high zinc hdeo. With a temp of 160 a 30wt would do. Amsoil makes a HDD in 5w 30 thats a heavy duty diesel oil.
I think this is the best advice so far, with M1 0W-40 a close second. The Amsoil HDD is some stout oil, and you can likely run it for two years with a decent long life filter.
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Originally Posted By: spasm3
With an open seat pressure of 336 i might run a high zinc hdeo. With a temp of 160 a 30wt would do. Amsoil makes a HDD in 5w 30 thats a heavy duty diesel oil.
We've run heavier springs than that (for control at 7K+) with M1 0w-40 with no issue nor wear on the cam upon tear-down FWIW.
With an open seat pressure of 336 i might run a high zinc hdeo. With a temp of 160 a 30wt would do. Amsoil makes a HDD in 5w 30 thats a heavy duty diesel oil.
We've run heavier springs than that (for control at 7K+) with M1 0w-40 with no issue nor wear on the cam upon tear-down FWIW.
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Pennzoil makes a high zinc racing oil (Pennzoil GT). Oreilly sells it pretty cheap ($4-$5 a quart I think). According to Pennzoil it's good for a high performance daily driver (I'm guessing similar to Valvoline VR1).
Valvoline VR1 50wt in summer. Only because it'll be such infrequent use and very low miles.
5w-whatever in winter. Or just slap a magnetic pan heater on it for 4 hours before you start it.
5w-whatever in winter. Or just slap a magnetic pan heater on it for 4 hours before you start it.
It'd also be nice for you to post a picture of the car and engine compartment.
My measly 301 will get the front to jump a few inches punching it in first. I bet that thing will light um up in even in 3rd from a rolling start.
My measly 301 will get the front to jump a few inches punching it in first. I bet that thing will light um up in even in 3rd from a rolling start.
At first glance, I thought this said best oil for "hearing" protection. Then I said oh here goes a quietest oil competition.
Originally Posted By: CHARLIEBRONSON21
At first glance, I thought this said best oil for "hearing" protection. Then I said oh here goes a quietest oil competition.
"cool story bro"
At first glance, I thought this said best oil for "hearing" protection. Then I said oh here goes a quietest oil competition.
"cool story bro"
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: clinebarger
The oil itself is not the reason Pontiac engine spin bearings, The large Main & Rod journal diameters is the main culprit.
Your ahead of the game using a 3" 400 main bearing vs a 455 main size of 3.25".
Does is still have the stock 2.25 rods? Or do you have 2.20" big block chevy rods?
If your still running Pontiac rod journal diameter.....Stop spinning it over 5,000 RPM, 4,800 RPM would be an ideal redline. At 5,500 rpm....The journal to bearing speed is atrocious.
Right, that's what I've heard before on the Pontiac forums. But there's a guy here with turbine experience, who seems to think engines work the same way, who says bigger bearings are always better. I'd like to understand it better. I know the long stroke is a problem too with the centrifugal forces on the oil.
4800 rpm is hard to take. I spin my chev to 6500 and it sounds so freeking good.
The larger in diameter a Bearing Journal is, The faster the journal surface speed is for a given engine RPM.
As far as my Redline recommendation of 4,800-5,000....I stand by that, It is the highest safe RPM for stock bottom end Pontiac's for any length of time, If you take one up to 5,500-6,000 for a second or two & grab another gear....Sure! But you cant hold it there.
Originally Posted By: clinebarger
The oil itself is not the reason Pontiac engine spin bearings, The large Main & Rod journal diameters is the main culprit.
Your ahead of the game using a 3" 400 main bearing vs a 455 main size of 3.25".
Does is still have the stock 2.25 rods? Or do you have 2.20" big block chevy rods?
If your still running Pontiac rod journal diameter.....Stop spinning it over 5,000 RPM, 4,800 RPM would be an ideal redline. At 5,500 rpm....The journal to bearing speed is atrocious.
Right, that's what I've heard before on the Pontiac forums. But there's a guy here with turbine experience, who seems to think engines work the same way, who says bigger bearings are always better. I'd like to understand it better. I know the long stroke is a problem too with the centrifugal forces on the oil.
4800 rpm is hard to take. I spin my chev to 6500 and it sounds so freeking good.
The larger in diameter a Bearing Journal is, The faster the journal surface speed is for a given engine RPM.
As far as my Redline recommendation of 4,800-5,000....I stand by that, It is the highest safe RPM for stock bottom end Pontiac's for any length of time, If you take one up to 5,500-6,000 for a second or two & grab another gear....Sure! But you cant hold it there.
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I'd say a classic car formula 20W50.
Yup, at least in the summer months. IF it will be driven in cooler fall/winter temps I would drop back to a 10W40. To me this is a classic call for thick and heavy oil.
RP HPS, Joe Gibbs, etc... something designed for hot rods, muscle cars, and hi-performance applications as you mention.
I'd say a classic car formula 20W50.
Yup, at least in the summer months. IF it will be driven in cooler fall/winter temps I would drop back to a 10W40. To me this is a classic call for thick and heavy oil.
RP HPS, Joe Gibbs, etc... something designed for hot rods, muscle cars, and hi-performance applications as you mention.
I used to work with a guy who was an auto mechanic by day, and rebuilt boat engines for a local Mercury Marine dealer at night. He said the overwhelming majority of his work was bottom ends in big blocks vs. small blocks. The big block boat motors spun bearings constantly.
Originally Posted By: clinebarger
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: clinebarger
The oil itself is not the reason Pontiac engine spin bearings, The large Main & Rod journal diameters is the main culprit.
Your ahead of the game using a 3" 400 main bearing vs a 455 main size of 3.25".
Does is still have the stock 2.25 rods? Or do you have 2.20" big block chevy rods?
If your still running Pontiac rod journal diameter.....Stop spinning it over 5,000 RPM, 4,800 RPM would be an ideal redline. At 5,500 rpm....The journal to bearing speed is atrocious.
Right, that's what I've heard before on the Pontiac forums. But there's a guy here with turbine experience, who seems to think engines work the same way, who says bigger bearings are always better. I'd like to understand it better. I know the long stroke is a problem too with the centrifugal forces on the oil.
4800 rpm is hard to take. I spin my chev to 6500 and it sounds so freeking good.
The larger in diameter a Bearing Journal is, The faster the journal surface speed is for a given engine RPM.
As far as my Redline recommendation of 4,800-5,000....I stand by that, It is the highest safe RPM for stock bottom end Pontiac's for any length of time, If you take one up to 5,500-6,000 for a second or two & grab another gear....Sure! But you cant hold it there.
Originally Posted By: clinebarger
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: clinebarger
The oil itself is not the reason Pontiac engine spin bearings, The large Main & Rod journal diameters is the main culprit.
Your ahead of the game using a 3" 400 main bearing vs a 455 main size of 3.25".
Does is still have the stock 2.25 rods? Or do you have 2.20" big block chevy rods?
If your still running Pontiac rod journal diameter.....Stop spinning it over 5,000 RPM, 4,800 RPM would be an ideal redline. At 5,500 rpm....The journal to bearing speed is atrocious.
Right, that's what I've heard before on the Pontiac forums. But there's a guy here with turbine experience, who seems to think engines work the same way, who says bigger bearings are always better. I'd like to understand it better. I know the long stroke is a problem too with the centrifugal forces on the oil.
4800 rpm is hard to take. I spin my chev to 6500 and it sounds so freeking good.
The larger in diameter a Bearing Journal is, The faster the journal surface speed is for a given engine RPM.
As far as my Redline recommendation of 4,800-5,000....I stand by that, It is the highest safe RPM for stock bottom end Pontiac's for any length of time, If you take one up to 5,500-6,000 for a second or two & grab another gear....Sure! But you cant hold it there.
Originally Posted By: clinebarger
The larger in diameter a Bearing Journal is, The faster the journal surface speed is for a given engine RPM.
As far as my Redline recommendation of 4,800-5,000....I stand by that, It is the highest safe RPM for stock bottom end Pontiac's for any length of time, If you take one up to 5,500-6,000 for a second or two & grab another gear....Sure! But you cant hold it there.
I wanted to get a good discussion going on this but the guy we need to participate decided to throw a tantrum because he thinks I disrespected him.
Comparing journal surface speeds of engines and turbines, a turbine has a shaft a couple of feet in diameter and rotates at 3600rpm. We don't even need to break out a calculator to know that's a higher order of magnitude.
You are being very conservative on the rpm limitation of Pontiac engines. A larger journal should be stronger. They put many 455 olds in jet boats and they turn 6k all day long. At least mine did. They say the olds spun bearings a lot but it was due to high oil temps. I installed a water to oil cooler to keep the oil nice and cool.
The larger in diameter a Bearing Journal is, The faster the journal surface speed is for a given engine RPM.
As far as my Redline recommendation of 4,800-5,000....I stand by that, It is the highest safe RPM for stock bottom end Pontiac's for any length of time, If you take one up to 5,500-6,000 for a second or two & grab another gear....Sure! But you cant hold it there.
I wanted to get a good discussion going on this but the guy we need to participate decided to throw a tantrum because he thinks I disrespected him.
Comparing journal surface speeds of engines and turbines, a turbine has a shaft a couple of feet in diameter and rotates at 3600rpm. We don't even need to break out a calculator to know that's a higher order of magnitude.
You are being very conservative on the rpm limitation of Pontiac engines. A larger journal should be stronger. They put many 455 olds in jet boats and they turn 6k all day long. At least mine did. They say the olds spun bearings a lot but it was due to high oil temps. I installed a water to oil cooler to keep the oil nice and cool.
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