So I'm trying to extend the life of my 18 year old car for as long as possible. Maintenance is on Schedule. Parts are replaced as needed. The long term obstacle for my goal is the metal wear. Sure, I can replace rubber parts, even renew every part around the block and head. But if it doesn't have compression and burns oil, it's koput. So I have two options to prevent metal wear. Either I restrict my daily commutes, thereby cutting my cold starts or I take long highway trips. These highway trips usually have traffic the time I drive through, so consider it 25/75 city/freeway driving. Iwant to know your thoughts. What contributes to wear more? Cold starts or miles? Is there a break even point? Will some types of miles accelerate wear faster than cold starts? Please neglect oil deterioration and operating temp issues.
What kills a motor faster? Cold starts or miles?
- Thread starter Kurtatron
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Cold starts ...hands down.But it's not that bad,Dont let those tv commercials' engines grinding to a start get to you.Proper vis oil on cold start is only about 1 to 1.5 seconds, at the very longest, until the mains are pressurized.More details on your vehicle would help.My daily driver ,for instance ,is A 93' Chevy G20 van with close to 200k,proper maint., burns no oil,no smoke ,no nothing.I have a very short 2mi commute.Just as the coolant reaches temp,its time to pull into the driveway,very hard on the oil.Thats why I run short oci'sI wish I had some highway time ,it's rare though.
cold starts
Poor maintenance,either way!
FL_Rob, sounds like if you ever get yourself a new commuter you'd want one of these and one of these.
I'd lean toward cold starts too. Looking at Police vehicles (the daily patrol cars), they last quite well on mostly [censored] oil you've never heard of and I think alot of it is because they run hours on end, continuously so the hours in service are far beyond what the actual mileage says. I'd say a police car with 100,000 miles is more equivalent to 300,000 easily (I'm talking city police).
As you said in the topic, cold starts affect the motor. The high mileage certainly affects the rest of the vehicle though, which matters. Bottom line, given reasonable maintenence, don't worry. Just use as needed and don't sweat it. Thats what your car is for!
If you take long highway trips you still have the cold starts associated with those. When your engine is warmed up and in the virtual no-wear zone, your automatic transmission is still slowly expiring.
If you have the power to skip your daily commute, go for it.
If you have the power to skip your daily commute, go for it.
Originally Posted By: Kurtatron
So I'm trying to extend the life of my 18 year old car for as long as possible. Maintenance is on Schedule. Parts are replaced as needed. The long term obstacle for my goal is the metal wear. Sure, I can replace rubber parts, even renew every part around the block and head. But if it doesn't have compression and burns oil, it's koput. So I have two options to prevent metal wear. Either I restrict my daily commutes, thereby cutting my cold starts or I take long highway trips. These highway trips usually have traffic the time I drive through, so consider it 25/75 city/freeway driving. Iwant to know your thoughts. What contributes to wear more? Cold starts or miles? Is there a break even point? Will some types of miles accelerate wear faster than cold starts? Please neglect oil deterioration and operating temp issues.
IMHO neither! It's frequent short trips (water temperature not reaching normal operating temp) and maintenance neglect that typically kills the engine.
Also: given the vehicle is over 18 yrs old, I'll be more worried about servicing parts availability over time (esp. OEM/high quality aftermarket ones) than anything else.
So I'm trying to extend the life of my 18 year old car for as long as possible. Maintenance is on Schedule. Parts are replaced as needed. The long term obstacle for my goal is the metal wear. Sure, I can replace rubber parts, even renew every part around the block and head. But if it doesn't have compression and burns oil, it's koput. So I have two options to prevent metal wear. Either I restrict my daily commutes, thereby cutting my cold starts or I take long highway trips. These highway trips usually have traffic the time I drive through, so consider it 25/75 city/freeway driving. Iwant to know your thoughts. What contributes to wear more? Cold starts or miles? Is there a break even point? Will some types of miles accelerate wear faster than cold starts? Please neglect oil deterioration and operating temp issues.
IMHO neither! It's frequent short trips (water temperature not reaching normal operating temp) and maintenance neglect that typically kills the engine.
Also: given the vehicle is over 18 yrs old, I'll be more worried about servicing parts availability over time (esp. OEM/high quality aftermarket ones) than anything else.
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eljefino hit the nail on the head.
It doesn't matter which causes more wear. If each day you are forced to start your car twice (to leave for work and leave for home) the short trips are causing less wear. Every long trip includes a short trip at the start.
It doesn't matter which causes more wear. If each day you are forced to start your car twice (to leave for work and leave for home) the short trips are causing less wear. Every long trip includes a short trip at the start.
First lets get real about COLD STARTS what does it really mean? every time you start the car is could be a cold start. When the engine is cold the clearances are different than when it is at operating temperatures. The pistons are oval when cold then are "round" at operating temps so they do not seal as well and when the engine is cold it needs a richer mixture to run , even with fuel injection. So there is more of a fuel wash on the cyl walls as well as more blow by. All the machined clearances are engineered for best at operating temps..There is also the heat activated additives in the oil. There really isn't much that can be done about this process. Now the real COLD START wear is when for example when it is 0*F and you have straight weight 40 in the crankcase. Try to suck a thick milkshake through a straw, that is the oil in the crankcase making its way to the oil pump the engine is basically running without oil and that is real COLD START wear. This explaination is very simple but that is why multi viscosity oils work well . Straight 40 on a 50*F day will get to the parts fast enough because there is oil left on the pasts. But then straight 40 at 0*f may not ever reach the pump so no lubrication. Take care of the car and there are more important things to be worrying about than the car in todays world!!!
I guess I got too preoccupied with this article. I paid attention to the first half, then lost it for the second half.
http://www.thunderpress.net/MONTH_ARTICLE-pdfs/2006/0306_MotorheadMemo.pdf
Apparently even in sub-20 degrees, light weight oils handle the cold starts fine, according to the article.
"Modern multigrade oils with the latest and best VI improver additives try, in effect, to be both types of oil in one—providing good lubrication on cold starts and at high operating temperatures. Some succeed more admirably than others."
This is good news. Now I can reconsider dropping my commute. I'll still budget the days I drive, but I don't have to be paranoid of cold starts! Great.
http://www.thunderpress.net/MONTH_ARTICLE-pdfs/2006/0306_MotorheadMemo.pdf
Apparently even in sub-20 degrees, light weight oils handle the cold starts fine, according to the article.
"Modern multigrade oils with the latest and best VI improver additives try, in effect, to be both types of oil in one—providing good lubrication on cold starts and at high operating temperatures. Some succeed more admirably than others."
This is good news. Now I can reconsider dropping my commute. I'll still budget the days I drive, but I don't have to be paranoid of cold starts! Great.
MolaKule
Staff member
The major realization is: You cannot avoid either situation so proper maintenance is the major factor toward longevity.
Take my '91 420SEL: it has about 190K on the original engine. We've had it for a decade, put on about 90K of the total miles.
Pacific NW is a pretty mild climate, but not as mild as Santa Cruz! Powertrains can last a long time: I'd service the tranny (if it happens to be an automatic) religiously as that's more likely to go South than a good-running engine.
Being a little O/C re: oil & oil changes I've used 5K OCI's with 15W-40 HDEO, three 15K OCI's with AMSOIL AME 15W-40 changing the filter out @ 7.5K intervals and topping off, and am now into a 3 X 6.66K OCI using a 50/50 blend of 20W-50 MaxLife & SynPower.
My last two tanks of mid-grade averaged 21.0 and 20.3 mpg on a mostly highway run. I'm overjoyed! My belief is that if your 15 year-old car still gets gas mileage as good (or better!) than it did when it was a couple of years old DON'T FIX IT IF IT AIN'T BROKEN! Maintain it, but don't go screwing around.
Way back I bought a 2nd W126 sedan (my '88) that I knew had just received a complete top end rebuild (heads, timing chain & guides, water pump, etc.), a/c work and a tranny rebuild. This was thinking it would make a great parts car and possible engine/transmission donor if something catastrophic happened. Turns out it is WAY, WAY too good of a car to not drive. I'm looking for better leather seats front & rear before I drop $1,500+ for new leather seat covers. That's almost as much as I paid for the car, BTW.
The O/Poster does not indicate what kind of 18 year-old car he drives, but if everything is working good and you like the vehicle (collecor or sentimental value, or just a car you happen to really enjoy!) I'd start looking for a "donor" car with a documented service/repair history for the powertrain, or put a $100 a month into a savings account for future powertrain repairs.
Did I mention that if you have a good donor car you can pretty much do away with collision/comprehensive insurance on an older car: you'll never get what it is worth from your insurance carrier and having all four clips, replacement glass, etc. can make a rebuild a breeze.
Cheers!
Pacific NW is a pretty mild climate, but not as mild as Santa Cruz! Powertrains can last a long time: I'd service the tranny (if it happens to be an automatic) religiously as that's more likely to go South than a good-running engine.
Being a little O/C re: oil & oil changes I've used 5K OCI's with 15W-40 HDEO, three 15K OCI's with AMSOIL AME 15W-40 changing the filter out @ 7.5K intervals and topping off, and am now into a 3 X 6.66K OCI using a 50/50 blend of 20W-50 MaxLife & SynPower.
My last two tanks of mid-grade averaged 21.0 and 20.3 mpg on a mostly highway run. I'm overjoyed! My belief is that if your 15 year-old car still gets gas mileage as good (or better!) than it did when it was a couple of years old DON'T FIX IT IF IT AIN'T BROKEN! Maintain it, but don't go screwing around.
Way back I bought a 2nd W126 sedan (my '88) that I knew had just received a complete top end rebuild (heads, timing chain & guides, water pump, etc.), a/c work and a tranny rebuild. This was thinking it would make a great parts car and possible engine/transmission donor if something catastrophic happened. Turns out it is WAY, WAY too good of a car to not drive. I'm looking for better leather seats front & rear before I drop $1,500+ for new leather seat covers. That's almost as much as I paid for the car, BTW.
The O/Poster does not indicate what kind of 18 year-old car he drives, but if everything is working good and you like the vehicle (collecor or sentimental value, or just a car you happen to really enjoy!) I'd start looking for a "donor" car with a documented service/repair history for the powertrain, or put a $100 a month into a savings account for future powertrain repairs.
Did I mention that if you have a good donor car you can pretty much do away with collision/comprehensive insurance on an older car: you'll never get what it is worth from your insurance carrier and having all four clips, replacement glass, etc. can make a rebuild a breeze.
Cheers!
Originally Posted By: Kurtatron
Is there a break even point?
It takes about 20 minuts for the engine to enter the "virtually no wear" stage of operation from a cold start. Miles after this point are approximately free from the engine wear aspect.
Is there a break even point?
It takes about 20 minuts for the engine to enter the "virtually no wear" stage of operation from a cold start. Miles after this point are approximately free from the engine wear aspect.
Originally Posted By: Mitch Alsup
Originally Posted By: Kurtatron
Is there a break even point?
It takes about 20 minuts for the engine to enter the "virtually no wear" stage of operation from a cold start. Miles after this point are approximately free from the engine wear aspect.
From this, wouldn't cold starts be the suggested killer of motors? Sure, the oil starved period may not amount to much, but if what you're suggesting wears the car the most, each cold start amounts to the "warm up" period. So based off that, it's better to garner lots of long-trip running miles than short, low mile trips.
Originally Posted By: Kurtatron
Is there a break even point?
It takes about 20 minuts for the engine to enter the "virtually no wear" stage of operation from a cold start. Miles after this point are approximately free from the engine wear aspect.
From this, wouldn't cold starts be the suggested killer of motors? Sure, the oil starved period may not amount to much, but if what you're suggesting wears the car the most, each cold start amounts to the "warm up" period. So based off that, it's better to garner lots of long-trip running miles than short, low mile trips.
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