What is the proper application for 15w-50 Mobil 1?
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They already did!
I was watching Motorweek on Speed Channel. The new Pontiac GTO is a Holden! Hey, if we're too lazy to build 'em here, why not get one from a GM Affiliate!
Jerry
As Bob Lutz from GM said "Holden is the jewel in the GM crown". Not too shabby from a population of 20 million!
Hi,
Jerry - yes I think in the correct application ( and ambient ) M1 15w-50 would be ideal in turbo engines with its high HT/HS number. This would follow many manufacturers recommendations
The same could be said for "our" M1 5w-50 version
The M1 15w-50 version appears to be the most widely used synthetic oil in Porsche 928 vehicles worldwide
Sprintman - I'm amazed that ExxonMobil have introduced M1 15w-50. Well, its been advertised outside their Service Stations for years but there has never been any to sell inside!
GM-Holden and Ford were kept on their toes here by constant threats of closure from Detroit. All they could do was fight back. They did and with a vengeance. Both organisations now have excellent rear drive platforms that take high power and are VERY durable. Their vehicle range is great value for money here. Both Companies sell AWD versions with V8's here
They export their cars to Europe, the Middle East and Asia and throughout the Pacific
GM-Holden's engine plant has exported millions of engines to Opel, Vauxhall and Daewoo
Their Utes ( light trucks ) are smart looking powerhouse vehicles that have a great following too
Doug
Jerry - yes I think in the correct application ( and ambient ) M1 15w-50 would be ideal in turbo engines with its high HT/HS number. This would follow many manufacturers recommendations
The same could be said for "our" M1 5w-50 version
The M1 15w-50 version appears to be the most widely used synthetic oil in Porsche 928 vehicles worldwide
Sprintman - I'm amazed that ExxonMobil have introduced M1 15w-50. Well, its been advertised outside their Service Stations for years but there has never been any to sell inside!
GM-Holden and Ford were kept on their toes here by constant threats of closure from Detroit. All they could do was fight back. They did and with a vengeance. Both organisations now have excellent rear drive platforms that take high power and are VERY durable. Their vehicle range is great value for money here. Both Companies sell AWD versions with V8's here
They export their cars to Europe, the Middle East and Asia and throughout the Pacific
GM-Holden's engine plant has exported millions of engines to Opel, Vauxhall and Daewoo
Their Utes ( light trucks ) are smart looking powerhouse vehicles that have a great following too
Doug
'94 Miata; 1.8l I4; aftermarket turbocharger, ~220rwhp. Screamer
0F is fine; I don't run straight 15w50 in the winter anyway, usually add some 10w30 (up to 50%). The main reason I run the heavier oil is that it's the only M1 product that isn't rapidly consumed. I had high hopes for the 0w40, but still had what I'd consider excessive consumption. (1qt/1200mi). I pay close attention to warmup and cooldown, but the car gets used for it's intended purpose...
Thanks again!
I'm sorry did you say one quart every 1,200 miles?!?
Wow!
Well, given the application, then I have to STRONGLY recommend you continue using Mobil 1 15W-50. What is your oil consumption with 15W-50?? I wonder what would happen to that high-strung motor if you happened to use Mobil 1 0W-20??
Since 15W-50 has the same MRV BPT as a regular off-the-shelf 5W-30, it should work fine in Detroit. You only seem to get a few really nasty days: we call those days "warming up!"
Doug: it's amazing how Austrailian car companies can compete so well, especially with Korea and Japan right on your doorstep. Folks here seem to have a hard time with Japan half way around the world.
All I've seen of Australian cars is prejudiced by Mad Max movies and the Water Rats television show. Especially in Water Rats, the Holdens appear to be the favorite get-away car for the bad guys that Goldie is always trying to catch.
Jerry
Wow!
Well, given the application, then I have to STRONGLY recommend you continue using Mobil 1 15W-50. What is your oil consumption with 15W-50?? I wonder what would happen to that high-strung motor if you happened to use Mobil 1 0W-20??
Since 15W-50 has the same MRV BPT as a regular off-the-shelf 5W-30, it should work fine in Detroit. You only seem to get a few really nasty days: we call those days "warming up!"
Doug: it's amazing how Austrailian car companies can compete so well, especially with Korea and Japan right on your doorstep. Folks here seem to have a hard time with Japan half way around the world.
All I've seen of Australian cars is prejudiced by Mad Max movies and the Water Rats television show. Especially in Water Rats, the Holdens appear to be the favorite get-away car for the bad guys that Goldie is always trying to catch.
Jerry
What should quench those that think there are engine tolerance differences will be the Holden/GTO's engine oil suggestion. 20W-50 for Aus. and when it comes here....5-30...what else.
And Jerry, you say you've been using Delvac 1 for 20 years...isn't it a recent product?? ie. about 5 yrs. old???
And Jerry, you say you've been using Delvac 1 for 20 years...isn't it a recent product?? ie. about 5 yrs. old???
Buster, you can't really be serious and think that you can get your cake and eat it too?? Do you?
In a land such as Europe (outside the U.S.) fuel cost is often $5-10 a gallon. Do you actually think that if the smart Europeans could use WD-40 (probably thinner than a 0-10) in their cars they wouldn't?
Why would they resort to driving 1L displacement engines only to use a 40 or 50 weight? The answer is it's because of protection. You CANNOT get the same protection from a 20 weight oil as a 40 or 50.
And while we dumb N.A.'s keep thinking it's OK to drive 5L V-8 truck's and then use 20 weight oil's, the rest of the world knows where the real fuel economy gain are...smaller displacement...smaller vehicles.
The differences are that oil is cheap here and longevity is not an issue. Use a 10 or 20 weight. Change it FREQUENTLY or change the car frequently. Something we also do in N.A.. The UOA will not show you everything...
In a land such as Europe (outside the U.S.) fuel cost is often $5-10 a gallon. Do you actually think that if the smart Europeans could use WD-40 (probably thinner than a 0-10) in their cars they wouldn't?
Why would they resort to driving 1L displacement engines only to use a 40 or 50 weight? The answer is it's because of protection. You CANNOT get the same protection from a 20 weight oil as a 40 or 50.
And while we dumb N.A.'s keep thinking it's OK to drive 5L V-8 truck's and then use 20 weight oil's, the rest of the world knows where the real fuel economy gain are...smaller displacement...smaller vehicles.
The differences are that oil is cheap here and longevity is not an issue. Use a 10 or 20 weight. Change it FREQUENTLY or change the car frequently. Something we also do in N.A.. The UOA will not show you everything...
Dr T Can you please, at least one time, give us proof that Amsoil's 30wt oils, Mobil's 30wt oils, Castrol's 30wt oils are all too thin? Can you also explain how Mobil 1's additive package is also weak? (It's actually very good right now). Also, please tell me why you think Terry and Molekule are wrong in there asessment. You never state anything factual. Just pure mumbo jumbo. I need to see proof of your claims.
Dr T, no offense, but I think you are completely off the wall with your statments. If a V10 runs a good 20wt oil and shows great wear at 10k miles, why does it need a thicker oil? Thick oil is for thick heads. It is also quite likely that 20wt oils were a result of Ford wanting higher quality oils. Read the recent CAFE/20wt oil thread.
[ January 22, 2004, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
Dr T, no offense, but I think you are completely off the wall with your statments. If a V10 runs a good 20wt oil and shows great wear at 10k miles, why does it need a thicker oil? Thick oil is for thick heads. It is also quite likely that 20wt oils were a result of Ford wanting higher quality oils. Read the recent CAFE/20wt oil thread.
[ January 22, 2004, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
Off the wall? Huh?
If you're referring to the Havoline post you will see that I said to go back in thread where you will see that Molacule has CONFIRMED that M-1 can use some help...ie. with LC, etc.. But, I guess you didn't bother...
And yes, you can use 5-20 in a Ford V-10. Heck, you can use salad oil. However, if overstressed either by load (towing) or extended OCI, you will get premature engine wear. Proof? Toyota, Dodge Durango, BMW, etc.
Why would certain manuf. eg. Toyota shorten their OCI, BMW switch some engines to a 60 weight (from a 30), M-B specify only 229.3/5 (HT/HS >3.5 synthetic for their 7.5k OCI. Why would ACEA even be required and have specs of their own??? They could simply adopt the API standards. Why wouldn't Ferrari use the newly fandangled European 0-20 weights???
And I'm not knocking any product in particular. Just calling the shots as I see them....as others have ie. "I get more noise with M-1". Is that due to the fact that it's a PAO? Maybe we should question that. That said, if Amsoil was "da bomb", we'd all be using it.
Otherwise as it stands today as a FACT, none of M-1 x-30's weights meet A3 nor any VW/Audi or M-B 229.1/3/5 specs. (ie. where CAFE isn't). That's not deficient? Maybe they work great in your application, but not in those requiring these specs.. And neither do any x-20's either.
If you're referring to the Havoline post you will see that I said to go back in thread where you will see that Molacule has CONFIRMED that M-1 can use some help...ie. with LC, etc.. But, I guess you didn't bother...
And yes, you can use 5-20 in a Ford V-10. Heck, you can use salad oil. However, if overstressed either by load (towing) or extended OCI, you will get premature engine wear. Proof? Toyota, Dodge Durango, BMW, etc.
Why would certain manuf. eg. Toyota shorten their OCI, BMW switch some engines to a 60 weight (from a 30), M-B specify only 229.3/5 (HT/HS >3.5 synthetic for their 7.5k OCI. Why would ACEA even be required and have specs of their own??? They could simply adopt the API standards. Why wouldn't Ferrari use the newly fandangled European 0-20 weights???
And I'm not knocking any product in particular. Just calling the shots as I see them....as others have ie. "I get more noise with M-1". Is that due to the fact that it's a PAO? Maybe we should question that. That said, if Amsoil was "da bomb", we'd all be using it.
Otherwise as it stands today as a FACT, none of M-1 x-30's weights meet A3 nor any VW/Audi or M-B 229.1/3/5 specs. (ie. where CAFE isn't). That's not deficient? Maybe they work great in your application, but not in those requiring these specs.. And neither do any x-20's either.
Dr T although you make some valid points, and for HTHS I would have to agree with most of it, I do find some of your comments and remarks rather caustic and they do not belong to a forum such as this.quote:
Originally posted by Dr. T:
What should quench those that think there are engine tolerance differences will be the Holden/GTO's engine oil suggestion. 20W-50 for Aus. and when it comes here....5-30...what else.
And Jerry, you say you've been using Delvac 1 for 20 years...isn't it a recent product?? ie. about 5 yrs. old???
Regarding Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40, and I would like to hear from Doug Hillary to know how long he has been using it, I first became aware of it in 1978.
My Uncle was a mechanic at the local School Board and they had just started a field trial with Mobil Co. Mobil told them to only change the oil once a year, filters every 3 months or 4,000 miles, though Mobil did do monthly UOA samples.
This was with Ford 428 truck engine chassis and Cat 3402 diesels. There had been a problem with short life and heavy sludge.
When I entered the business, I started using Delvac 1 in the commercial stuff in 1983, about a year later. I had tried Esso XD-3 0W-30 winter and Esso XD-3 15W-40 summer with fair results, but after thinking about the excellent results the local school board had, I switched to Delvac 1.
Since I never throw anything away, I managed to dig up a VERY old Esso product brochure from Sept of 1981: The Cold War - Lubrication in Subzero Weather. Nice cover: a toy Cat D10 in a block of ice.
Actually, a lot of the brochure has facts in it that are still 100% relevant today. Also fairly easy to read with good explanations of those mind-numbing ASTM MRV test procedures.
On Page 5 they have 5 one litre beakers in a test stand. All have been chilled to -40 C for 48 hours. The grades indicated are Esso XD-3 15W-40, Esso XD-3 10W-30, Esso XD-3 5W-20 (No longer available), Esso XD-3 0W-30, and Delvac 1.
Although Esso warned pour points had limited usefullness, they wanted to prove how much easier Delvac 1 flowed out of the beaker. You know, a catchy visual aid.
Incidently, 30 seconds after tiping, the 15W-40, 10W-30, and 5W-20 showed no signs of leaving the beaker. Like taffy.
On pages 10-11, Esso graphed the CCS and MRV performance to again prove how much better Delvac 1 was in cold temp performance.
In the same dusty box I found that guide, I also came across the Esso: A Lubrication Guide for Canadian Fleets. On Page 8 they again mention Delvac 1 "In many parts of Canada, its low temperature capability alone makes Delvac 1 worth the extra cost."
I couldn't agree more.
So Dr T, where did you get your "facts" on Delvac 1? Or are you refering to the reformulated CI-4, which has been out about a year now? About every 2-3 years, Mobil does seem to reformulate their star pupil.
Jerry
The Europeans are FAR more conservative in their engineering and their oil recommendations. Since there is no Magnassun/Moss Warranty Act in the EU, the car maker is free to dictate EXACTLY what brand and grade of oil they want used. The car maker also has a LOT more input into the generic ACEA oil standards you mention, such as A3, A5, B3, B4-02, E4, etc etc.
That said, the car makers also appear willing to either redesign their engines OR redesign the oils to fit particular applications. VW is famous for this in their VW 500.x, 502.x, 503.x, 505.x, and now 506.x oil specs.
Or as Doug Hillary calls it: VW 506.123456. Ha ha!
The fuel economy champs like the VW Lupo 3L (100 MPG? Two please!) and most of the PD turbodiesels require VW 506.x. VW collaborated with Castrol to develop the Castrol SLX LongLife II 0W-30.
Castrol SLX LongLife II 0W-30 appears to balance fuel economy with their definition of a "normal" drain interval: 24 months or 50,000km.
VW also cautions that the 506.x oils can NOT be used in any other motor in their family.
The same thing happens here. If you pay attention to the HD commercial market, Allison got together with Castrol to develop TranSynd, a special synthetic ATF for HD use in city transit buses and whatnot.
Figures. About the same time that companies like Esso and Mobil develop competitive certified Allison C4 lubes, along comes this new standard.
Thanks to artifically low input costs (Price of gas, cost of quart of cheapie oil, much lower vehicle taxes, etc) we are a "disposable car culture." In most European countries, a car is a status symbol and a priveledge, not a "right" like here.
Personally, if VW did offer the Lupo 3L, I'd pick it up. It's tiny like the new Mini but for 100 MPG, no problem.
Hi,
entering the flame - asbestos suit on and hard hat on as well!
Dr T - Your comment "They could simply use the API standards" is so very true. They did use them commencing at least shortly after WW2 and refined them
However, and you are correct, individual Euro manufacturers also commenced to evolve their own "Approved Oils Lists". The "Approved Lists" were/are specific as to brand, title, viscosity and labeling etc. MB do/did their own testing for approvals as we know like many others
I can remember them well from 40 odd years ago when I worked for Caltex/Chevron in Copenhagen ( Denmark )
The variances in Automotive Engineering "culture" were alive and growing then - and they still are thank goodness
40 years ago API and SAE standards were Internationally transferable. 40 years ago the world was a different place. Japanese cars were virtually non existant, the VW Beetle/Kafer/Folkevogn was a World Wide best seller and British cars call Hillman, Sunbeam etc were around. You could board a Leyland bus in New York, London, Sydney and Cairo amongst many others.
Car/people populations have doubled since and some vehicle Manufacturers have gone forever
ACEA's lubricant rating system is an extremely good thing as it clearly delineates between the Oil producer and the Engine ( component ) producer
It also allowed their talented Engineers to exploit those talents without calling on the USA driven API "to give them the nod"
It also no doubt flagged up to the API - "get your act together"!
For us who are remote from Europe and the USA we digest a bit of both. We even re-engineer Opels and sell them here as Holdens. We export them to America as Pontiacs as well and the Arabs buy our Holdens as Chevrolets
Thinking people here can evaluate both ACEA and API and use what suits us best - in Australia
As another example, Castrol's SLX 0w-30 ex Germany was heavily advertised here ( even in our V8 Supercar series )in the mid 1990's. I was an early and unhappy user. It was withdrawn from sale here about two years ago.A flop seller, it still graces the shelves of shops - unsold - and as a SJ!
We live in challenging times indeed and as I see it the API and ACEA both have their place. Along with carefully studying the vehicle's Handbook to ensure you use the correct viscosity and type of oil.
There is not much need to second guess the Manufacturer's Engineers really but a good application of common sense and a sharp knife to excise the advertising muck both help!
Please don't use an oil with a low flash point to put out the flame - M1 15w-50 or not, and much less welcome Castrol SLX 0w-30 from Germany!!!
Regards
Doug
entering the flame - asbestos suit on and hard hat on as well!
Dr T - Your comment "They could simply use the API standards" is so very true. They did use them commencing at least shortly after WW2 and refined them
However, and you are correct, individual Euro manufacturers also commenced to evolve their own "Approved Oils Lists". The "Approved Lists" were/are specific as to brand, title, viscosity and labeling etc. MB do/did their own testing for approvals as we know like many others
I can remember them well from 40 odd years ago when I worked for Caltex/Chevron in Copenhagen ( Denmark )
The variances in Automotive Engineering "culture" were alive and growing then - and they still are thank goodness
40 years ago API and SAE standards were Internationally transferable. 40 years ago the world was a different place. Japanese cars were virtually non existant, the VW Beetle/Kafer/Folkevogn was a World Wide best seller and British cars call Hillman, Sunbeam etc were around. You could board a Leyland bus in New York, London, Sydney and Cairo amongst many others.
Car/people populations have doubled since and some vehicle Manufacturers have gone forever
ACEA's lubricant rating system is an extremely good thing as it clearly delineates between the Oil producer and the Engine ( component ) producer
It also allowed their talented Engineers to exploit those talents without calling on the USA driven API "to give them the nod"
It also no doubt flagged up to the API - "get your act together"!
For us who are remote from Europe and the USA we digest a bit of both. We even re-engineer Opels and sell them here as Holdens. We export them to America as Pontiacs as well and the Arabs buy our Holdens as Chevrolets
Thinking people here can evaluate both ACEA and API and use what suits us best - in Australia
As another example, Castrol's SLX 0w-30 ex Germany was heavily advertised here ( even in our V8 Supercar series )in the mid 1990's. I was an early and unhappy user. It was withdrawn from sale here about two years ago.A flop seller, it still graces the shelves of shops - unsold - and as a SJ!
We live in challenging times indeed and as I see it the API and ACEA both have their place. Along with carefully studying the vehicle's Handbook to ensure you use the correct viscosity and type of oil.
There is not much need to second guess the Manufacturer's Engineers really but a good application of common sense and a sharp knife to excise the advertising muck both help!
Please don't use an oil with a low flash point to put out the flame - M1 15w-50 or not, and much less welcome Castrol SLX 0w-30 from Germany!!!
Regards
Doug
The point I was making is that Viscosity isn't everything. You can have a well built 30wt oil that will protect fine. The proof is in the UOA's. I don't know why your so hung up on thick is better. It's not. Most engines today (most being about 99.9%) only need a 30wt. I'm talking a good synthetic. The reports don't suggest your statements are true. Yes A3 is a nice rating, but its not the end all be all of specs. M1's 0w-20 seems to be doing pretty **** good if you ask me. Is that A3 rated? Crossbow put that oil through track time and it held up well.
Hi,
Dr T - I reported the details some months ago on here including the vehicles I used SLX in and the OCIs etc. A search will find it
In short my wife's VW engine suffered from a seized up oil pump drive etc. The VW Tech's here commented that they had seen the varnish issue on other vehicles using SLX too including MBs as well. The VW-MB Dealership decided to stop using SLX like I did. And many others too no doubt
Words on a sub-standard products move fast here
I think that it was a sub-standard product and later Castrol blended it here and it became SL rated. It must have sold even worse going by the amount pulled by BP-Castrol and by that still sitting on shelves everywhere. The price which varied from $A65 to $A110+ for 5ltrs was not a help either
I was also a significant user of Castrol's R 10w-60 ( great stuff ) in cars and Castrol's Enduro 15w-40 semi-synthetic oil in my trucks
In 1997/8 I progressively moved on to Mobil
Regards
[ January 22, 2004, 11:46 PM: Message edited by: Doug Hillary ]
Dr T - I reported the details some months ago on here including the vehicles I used SLX in and the OCIs etc. A search will find it
In short my wife's VW engine suffered from a seized up oil pump drive etc. The VW Tech's here commented that they had seen the varnish issue on other vehicles using SLX too including MBs as well. The VW-MB Dealership decided to stop using SLX like I did. And many others too no doubt
Words on a sub-standard products move fast here
I think that it was a sub-standard product and later Castrol blended it here and it became SL rated. It must have sold even worse going by the amount pulled by BP-Castrol and by that still sitting on shelves everywhere. The price which varied from $A65 to $A110+ for 5ltrs was not a help either
I was also a significant user of Castrol's R 10w-60 ( great stuff ) in cars and Castrol's Enduro 15w-40 semi-synthetic oil in my trucks
In 1997/8 I progressively moved on to Mobil
Regards
[ January 22, 2004, 11:46 PM: Message edited by: Doug Hillary ]
Let me say that 5W-20 oils are NOT new technology. They have been around since the early 1970's but manufacturers have not "manted" them until now. Recent developments in oil refining have allowed them to do an "adequate" job in NORMAL driving conditions. Adequate protection from a 5w-20 oil has been difficult to achieve using mineral base stocks. Besides the Magnusson Moss act protects your rights against company brainwashing, so use 30 weight oils as you please!
Let me tell you, that a 5W-20 motor oil will not stand a GRUDGE race on the autobahn WOT. For over 50,000 miles my van has been in europe where it cruised the autobahns at 95+mph all day long on Mobil 1 5W-50 Rally Formula and the engine runs like 'brand new'. Since i have the car in the U.S.A. now i am using Mobil 1 5w-30 (with Amsoil SD15 filter) since it provides decent protection, especially since it is synthetic. Will post Oil Analysis soon... My next oil analysis will be with the Amsoil 0W-30, interesting to see which performs better.
[ January 23, 2004, 11:15 AM: Message edited by: therion ]
Travelling to europe every year i have noticed alot of things. All the "quick lube" shops over there offer a Synthetics. Castrol Sells a 5W-40 formulation which performance is great if you ask me. I drive a Fiat Siecento (1.1Liter inline 4, 5 speed manual) ran 5w-40 and even in the cold weather (-15*F) the oil flowed superbly and started "on the dime" every time. Now i didnt do an Oil Analysis but i can see this oil showing good numbers. In the USA Castrol offers no such oil, kind of shady.
One thing though, i noticed oil is really expensive over there. People over there witness "first hand" the power of synthetics with brutal winters, and hot summers with WOT driving all the time. In the USA a small % of users use synthetic, 10% i believe.
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