OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Oh look, real people, with real instruments, playing music!!!! HOLY [censored]!!!
What is "real music"
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Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Oh look, real people, with real instruments, playing music!!!! HOLY [censored]!!!
Gimme a break! These guys, I highly doubt, ever recorded two bars of music at once. They are notorious for using hundreds (or more) of edits in each and every song. Lars usually uses more than 2 dozen microphones on his drums kits when recording. This band is about as far as could be from "guys together in a room making music" without sequencing. Metallica's records are cut multitrack, instrument by instrument, track by track ONE at a time. The drums are recorded onto probably 20 or more tracks, then bass, then guitars, then vocals, then effects. THEN the mixing begins. Each and every track is edited, compressed, equalized, panned and automated (volume increasing and decreasing over time through the mix) into oblivion. They also play to a "click track" which is a metronome playing the headphones of the drummer (or everyone) to ensure consistent tempo so edits are not obvious. Then the stereo mixdown I compressed and equalized and phase-shifted and spatially enhanced and so on and so on.
The truth, fellas, is this: you can draw a line between "real" music and "fake" music all you want. Your silly rules will affect no one and your silly rules will also be arbitrary and will not take into account the myriad things that are "fake" when this music is recorded. Unless the music as recorded with ONE stereo microphone while being performed live (like most jazz and classical recordings) then there has been either trickery or enhancement; depending on what words you use to classify such things.
In all the years I have been recording I have come across but a handful of bands that could play their own music well in a room together simultaneously and have it "work". All other bands and acts play poorly-but-loud-enough-that-it-doesn't-matter when they perform live and then depend on studio trickery to cobble together something useful for recordings. It takes a lot of time on the road and a good collection of competent musicians to make "real" music happen; and there just aren't that many opportunities like that anymore: There isn't the money to tour unless you're already famous, and most modern music now needs to be SO FLIPPIN' LOUD ALL THE TIME in ear buds that studio trickery is necessary to keep up.
The good news? Major labels are no longer the only game in town. Now, anyone - even those who are not even practised musicians - can make music; some of it very engaging. The signal-to-noise ratio (read: the garbage-to-quality music ratio) is very high these days; but excellent, compelling music can be found if you look. You have to dig some, but it's there.
"Real"? "Not real"? These are just ways for people to discuss their opinions about music, which is healthy, I guess; but trying to invalidate creative works (inherently subjective) is an exercise in futility. It is a business. There is a wide array of brands and genres and products available. Some are for you. Others are not. Sometimes, every now and again, you even come across some artists who do NOT make their art into a commodity for sale. Music is, after all, a folk art at heart; and may be best performed in someone's kitchen at a house party.
Oh look, real people, with real instruments, playing music!!!! HOLY [censored]!!!
Gimme a break! These guys, I highly doubt, ever recorded two bars of music at once. They are notorious for using hundreds (or more) of edits in each and every song. Lars usually uses more than 2 dozen microphones on his drums kits when recording. This band is about as far as could be from "guys together in a room making music" without sequencing. Metallica's records are cut multitrack, instrument by instrument, track by track ONE at a time. The drums are recorded onto probably 20 or more tracks, then bass, then guitars, then vocals, then effects. THEN the mixing begins. Each and every track is edited, compressed, equalized, panned and automated (volume increasing and decreasing over time through the mix) into oblivion. They also play to a "click track" which is a metronome playing the headphones of the drummer (or everyone) to ensure consistent tempo so edits are not obvious. Then the stereo mixdown I compressed and equalized and phase-shifted and spatially enhanced and so on and so on.
The truth, fellas, is this: you can draw a line between "real" music and "fake" music all you want. Your silly rules will affect no one and your silly rules will also be arbitrary and will not take into account the myriad things that are "fake" when this music is recorded. Unless the music as recorded with ONE stereo microphone while being performed live (like most jazz and classical recordings) then there has been either trickery or enhancement; depending on what words you use to classify such things.
In all the years I have been recording I have come across but a handful of bands that could play their own music well in a room together simultaneously and have it "work". All other bands and acts play poorly-but-loud-enough-that-it-doesn't-matter when they perform live and then depend on studio trickery to cobble together something useful for recordings. It takes a lot of time on the road and a good collection of competent musicians to make "real" music happen; and there just aren't that many opportunities like that anymore: There isn't the money to tour unless you're already famous, and most modern music now needs to be SO FLIPPIN' LOUD ALL THE TIME in ear buds that studio trickery is necessary to keep up.
The good news? Major labels are no longer the only game in town. Now, anyone - even those who are not even practised musicians - can make music; some of it very engaging. The signal-to-noise ratio (read: the garbage-to-quality music ratio) is very high these days; but excellent, compelling music can be found if you look. You have to dig some, but it's there.
"Real"? "Not real"? These are just ways for people to discuss their opinions about music, which is healthy, I guess; but trying to invalidate creative works (inherently subjective) is an exercise in futility. It is a business. There is a wide array of brands and genres and products available. Some are for you. Others are not. Sometimes, every now and again, you even come across some artists who do NOT make their art into a commodity for sale. Music is, after all, a folk art at heart; and may be best performed in someone's kitchen at a house party.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: uc50ic4more
Whenever I would record hip-hop acts
I'm glad you referred to hip-hop as an "act", because it sure as [censored] isn't music
And then there's its retarded brother, rap.
I've never made a distinction between the two. I guess I'd consider "raps" to be the spoken words (that have *degenerated* into what you're referring to; but were once vital and socially aware and positive in nature) performed over top of hip-hop music. I don't really "get it" but I always had acts bring me some examples of stuff they wanted to emulate or were influenced by. A lot of it was atrociously crude and vile and violent, and disturbing; but sonically, luckily enough, it was easy to replicate!
Originally Posted By: uc50ic4more
Whenever I would record hip-hop acts
I'm glad you referred to hip-hop as an "act", because it sure as [censored] isn't music
I've never made a distinction between the two. I guess I'd consider "raps" to be the spoken words (that have *degenerated* into what you're referring to; but were once vital and socially aware and positive in nature) performed over top of hip-hop music. I don't really "get it" but I always had acts bring me some examples of stuff they wanted to emulate or were influenced by. A lot of it was atrociously crude and vile and violent, and disturbing; but sonically, luckily enough, it was easy to replicate!
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: uc50ic4more
Whenever I would record hip-hop acts
I'm glad you referred to hip-hop as an "act", because it sure as [censored] isn't music
And then there's its retarded brother, rap. Nothing like [censored] poetry to really dazzle them with your intellect...... ([censored], hoes, [censored], hoes, money money cars, 9mm caps busting, drugs, booze, hoes, [censored], money money money).
I agree 100000000000000000 %
Originally Posted By: uc50ic4more
Whenever I would record hip-hop acts
I'm glad you referred to hip-hop as an "act", because it sure as [censored] isn't music
I agree 100000000000000000 %
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: uc50ic4more
Gimme a break! These guys, I highly doubt, ever recorded two bars of music at once. They are notorious for using hundreds (or more) of edits in each and every song. Lars usually uses more than 2 dozen microphones on his drums kits when recording. This band is about as far as could be from "guys together in a room making music" without sequencing. Metallica's records are cut multitrack, instrument by instrument, track by track ONE at a time. The drums are recorded onto probably 20 or more tracks, then bass, then guitars, then vocals, then effects. THEN the mixing begins. Each and every track is edited, compressed, equalized, panned and automated (volume increasing and decreasing over time through the mix) into oblivion. They also play to a "click track" which is a metronome playing the headphones of the drummer (or everyone) to ensure consistent tempo so edits are not obvious. Then the stereo mixdown I compressed and equalized and phase-shifted and spatially enhanced and so on and so on.
You appear to have missed the fact that the video is a LIVE performance of them playing with the San Francisco symphony orchestra with no special "track mixing voodoo" involved. I don't care what they do to their studio albums, I've seen them in concert, they can PLAY.
Listen to some OLD Metallica sometime, maybe watch "Cliff 'em all", it is all live, them playing with a big stack of Marshall's. And it is recorded (so there goes your 2-bars claim right out the window). As the band grew into the monster it is now, yes, studio processing got to be likely how you've described. But they can all just get together and hammer out these tracks live, I know, because I've watched them do it. THAT is the difference.
Another band that is incredible live is Five Finger Death Punch. Real guys, real instruments, and really (heavy) music.
Gimme a break! These guys, I highly doubt, ever recorded two bars of music at once. They are notorious for using hundreds (or more) of edits in each and every song. Lars usually uses more than 2 dozen microphones on his drums kits when recording. This band is about as far as could be from "guys together in a room making music" without sequencing. Metallica's records are cut multitrack, instrument by instrument, track by track ONE at a time. The drums are recorded onto probably 20 or more tracks, then bass, then guitars, then vocals, then effects. THEN the mixing begins. Each and every track is edited, compressed, equalized, panned and automated (volume increasing and decreasing over time through the mix) into oblivion. They also play to a "click track" which is a metronome playing the headphones of the drummer (or everyone) to ensure consistent tempo so edits are not obvious. Then the stereo mixdown I compressed and equalized and phase-shifted and spatially enhanced and so on and so on.
You appear to have missed the fact that the video is a LIVE performance of them playing with the San Francisco symphony orchestra with no special "track mixing voodoo" involved. I don't care what they do to their studio albums, I've seen them in concert, they can PLAY.
Listen to some OLD Metallica sometime, maybe watch "Cliff 'em all", it is all live, them playing with a big stack of Marshall's. And it is recorded (so there goes your 2-bars claim right out the window). As the band grew into the monster it is now, yes, studio processing got to be likely how you've described. But they can all just get together and hammer out these tracks live, I know, because I've watched them do it. THAT is the difference.
Another band that is incredible live is Five Finger Death Punch. Real guys, real instruments, and really (heavy) music.
Quote:
I'm glad you referred to hip-hop as an "act", because it sure as [censored] isn't music
And then there's its retarded brother, rap. Nothing like [censored] poetry to really dazzle them with your intellect...... ([censored], hoes, [censored], hoes, money money cars, 9mm caps busting, drugs, booze, hoes, [censored], money money money).
It depends on the artist....and yes, I typed "artist".
Groups like the Beastie Boys were multi-dimensional. Not just rap and an occasional fuzz bassed punk styled song but they also performed jazz and even Bossa Nova.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8uQXtpUxok
I also enjoyed the covers that the Fugees performed before the individual members heads got too big to fit in the equipment van. No one can really match Roberta Flack's voice, but Lauren Hill got pretty close
Same Song by Digital Underground was almost a Parliament-Funkadelic worthy song which is high praise from a time that other rappers were simply ripping off Bootsie's bass lines
Yoko Ono often referred to herself as a "Concept Artist". I agree except I remove the "cept" from the title.
I'm glad you referred to hip-hop as an "act", because it sure as [censored] isn't music
It depends on the artist....and yes, I typed "artist".
Groups like the Beastie Boys were multi-dimensional. Not just rap and an occasional fuzz bassed punk styled song but they also performed jazz and even Bossa Nova.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8uQXtpUxok
I also enjoyed the covers that the Fugees performed before the individual members heads got too big to fit in the equipment van. No one can really match Roberta Flack's voice, but Lauren Hill got pretty close
Same Song by Digital Underground was almost a Parliament-Funkadelic worthy song which is high praise from a time that other rappers were simply ripping off Bootsie's bass lines
Yoko Ono often referred to herself as a "Concept Artist". I agree except I remove the "cept" from the title.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Listen to some OLD Metallica sometime, maybe watch "Cliff 'em all", it is all live, them playing with a big stack of Marshall's. And it is recorded (so there goes your 2-bars claim right out the window).
I was talking about their studio albums. I saw them in '91 with Faith No More and G N' R at the Pontiac Silverdome. They are excellent musicians. Their studio recording process, though, is *infamous* for it's complexity, and they are about the worst band in the world to try to posture as having an "organic" or "real" process on their records.
Here is Lars' setup from "And Justice..." I am surprised they didn't mic up his drum stool. Those two spaced omni's as overheads, by the way, are probably worth more than my car!
You'd also be dejected and sad to learn how much processing and "correction" goes into the sounds you're hearing on those "live" records, man.
It is a terrible and absolutely fruitless idea to try to quantify music's "quality" based on the technical abilities of the performers. I have seen people who could play circles around everyone else but could not come up with an engaging musical phrase to save their lives. In fact, MOST musicians who've spent that kind of time achieving that kind of mastery of their fingers often have little creativity: They are entirely devoted to the TECHNICAL process of playing a piece of wood and metal. The real rub is that the great ones - the really really great ones - are the ones who have the ideas and the ability to make them happen convincingly.
Listen to some OLD Metallica sometime, maybe watch "Cliff 'em all", it is all live, them playing with a big stack of Marshall's. And it is recorded (so there goes your 2-bars claim right out the window).
I was talking about their studio albums. I saw them in '91 with Faith No More and G N' R at the Pontiac Silverdome. They are excellent musicians. Their studio recording process, though, is *infamous* for it's complexity, and they are about the worst band in the world to try to posture as having an "organic" or "real" process on their records.
Here is Lars' setup from "And Justice..." I am surprised they didn't mic up his drum stool. Those two spaced omni's as overheads, by the way, are probably worth more than my car!
You'd also be dejected and sad to learn how much processing and "correction" goes into the sounds you're hearing on those "live" records, man.
It is a terrible and absolutely fruitless idea to try to quantify music's "quality" based on the technical abilities of the performers. I have seen people who could play circles around everyone else but could not come up with an engaging musical phrase to save their lives. In fact, MOST musicians who've spent that kind of time achieving that kind of mastery of their fingers often have little creativity: They are entirely devoted to the TECHNICAL process of playing a piece of wood and metal. The real rub is that the great ones - the really really great ones - are the ones who have the ideas and the ability to make them happen convincingly.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Well if you have some time to spare, check out Cliff 'em All, I don't think you'll hear much in the way of processing or correction, it's about one-step above garage, LOL!!!
However, you've proven my point and that is that these guys, no matter how much processing goes into their albums for release, are still real musicians, as they can sit down in a given setting and play... together. They've got some pretty whacky accoustic stuff too, that may not be everybody's cup of tea, but it demonstrates a broader range of talent than most probably give the guys credit for.
With respect to FFDP (which was the other live act I mentioned), I saw them at the docks in TO has to be two years ago now. The place is the size of a school gymnasium, MAYBE, with a ring of bars 'round the joint and a small stage. They opened for K0rn. The sound, the ENERGY, it was incredible. This wasn't some massive Molson Centre/ACC performance, this was your basic bar stage concert with a limited audience. It was the best concert I've ever attended. And it was REAL, and they proved to me, and everybody else in that audience that night that they sounded just as good live as they do on their albums. It was truly an incredible performance.
However, you've proven my point and that is that these guys, no matter how much processing goes into their albums for release, are still real musicians, as they can sit down in a given setting and play... together. They've got some pretty whacky accoustic stuff too, that may not be everybody's cup of tea, but it demonstrates a broader range of talent than most probably give the guys credit for.
With respect to FFDP (which was the other live act I mentioned), I saw them at the docks in TO has to be two years ago now. The place is the size of a school gymnasium, MAYBE, with a ring of bars 'round the joint and a small stage. They opened for K0rn. The sound, the ENERGY, it was incredible. This wasn't some massive Molson Centre/ACC performance, this was your basic bar stage concert with a limited audience. It was the best concert I've ever attended. And it was REAL, and they proved to me, and everybody else in that audience that night that they sounded just as good live as they do on their albums. It was truly an incredible performance.
I got to see Black Flag at Circle A Ranch in Dallas in 1986
Circle A Ranch was not a ranch at all. It was a cheesy upstairs dive bar. The stage was the size of a postage stamp but the stacks were floor to ceiling all along the south and west walls. I'm fairly certain that I suffered some hearing damage that night.
huh?
Greg Ginn has this sloppy but kind of good playing style. Not quite like Joe Walsh sloppy but good but still really good. Crazy notes that you would never expect in the solos.
I do not recall a single effect pedal on that stage
Circle A Ranch was not a ranch at all. It was a cheesy upstairs dive bar. The stage was the size of a postage stamp but the stacks were floor to ceiling all along the south and west walls. I'm fairly certain that I suffered some hearing damage that night.
huh?
Greg Ginn has this sloppy but kind of good playing style. Not quite like Joe Walsh sloppy but good but still really good. Crazy notes that you would never expect in the solos.
I do not recall a single effect pedal on that stage
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: uc50ic4more
Whenever I would record hip-hop acts
I'm glad you referred to hip-hop as an "act", because it sure as [censored] isn't music
And then there's its retarded brother, rap. Nothing like [censored] poetry to really dazzle them with your intellect...... ([censored], hoes, [censored], hoes, money money cars, 9mm caps busting, drugs, booze, hoes, [censored], money money money).
That's a sweeping generalization that's no better than calling Metallica overplayed mainstream radio garbage. For the record, I own a legit copy of their self titled album from 1990, so Lars can't take me to court.
I agree most modern mainstream hip hop or rap is pretty horrible. The Rihanna/Chris Brown "Birthday Cake" atrocity makes me want to vomit and I can't even sit through it. It's a horrendous noise, and a good example of what is NOT even remotely an art form.
However, when you look at some true artists, like Lauryn Hill, there is a lot of substance. Take this sample from her 1998 song (and yes, I will call it a song) "Everything is Everything":
I wrote these words for everyone
Who struggles in their youth
Who won't accept deception
Instead of what is truth
It seems we lose the game,
Before we even start to play
Who made these rules? We're so confused
Easily led astray
Let me tell ya that
Everything is everything
Everything is everything
After winter, must come spring
Everything is everything
Doesn't even seem like hip hop when you just read the lyrics, does it?
There is some rapping in it, but absolutely nothing about drugs, guns, or hoes. It has a message with a purpose and is a brilliant work of art. Sure, there's no orchestra here, but it's no more false than the heavy editing that goes into a Metallica album. They aren't playing in a garage.
While a lot of hip hop/rap does glorify violence and drug use, there are other examples where it tells a story about what actually goes on in the world. It might not be sunshine and flowers, but life usually isn't. Take this sample from UGK's 1994 song "Stoned Junkee":
Look at that, I bet she don't know where her kids at
Used to be all that, now she's dating Mr. Crack
Had her first when she was 13 now he's 11 years
And he's standin' on Texas, sellin' rocks and drinkin' beers
She got another girl, she's 8, stayed with her aunt and uncle
But uncle's sick, cause every night she's [bad things]
[more bad things], who can she tell? Nobody gives a [censored]
She tells anybody [bad things] she'll get [censored] up
So the [censored] keeps goin' on for another six
14 and now she's tired of [bad things]
Got a .38 from her girlfriend in school
Went home, loaded it up and cold smoked the fool
Not a very peachy song, but it's portraying things that actually happened to people and telling a story. It isn't glorifying it, it's talking about how bad the situation is. Obviously this one is a little too harsh for BITOG, so I won't post a link.
I agree the bulk of rap/hip hop is total garbage, but so is the bulk of rock, hipster music, pop, name a genre. There's usually only a handful of truly great artists from most genres. If you hear it on the radio in 2013, it probably isn't very good.
Originally Posted By: uc50ic4more
Whenever I would record hip-hop acts
I'm glad you referred to hip-hop as an "act", because it sure as [censored] isn't music
That's a sweeping generalization that's no better than calling Metallica overplayed mainstream radio garbage. For the record, I own a legit copy of their self titled album from 1990, so Lars can't take me to court.
I agree most modern mainstream hip hop or rap is pretty horrible. The Rihanna/Chris Brown "Birthday Cake" atrocity makes me want to vomit and I can't even sit through it. It's a horrendous noise, and a good example of what is NOT even remotely an art form.
However, when you look at some true artists, like Lauryn Hill, there is a lot of substance. Take this sample from her 1998 song (and yes, I will call it a song) "Everything is Everything":
I wrote these words for everyone
Who struggles in their youth
Who won't accept deception
Instead of what is truth
It seems we lose the game,
Before we even start to play
Who made these rules? We're so confused
Easily led astray
Let me tell ya that
Everything is everything
Everything is everything
After winter, must come spring
Everything is everything
Doesn't even seem like hip hop when you just read the lyrics, does it?
There is some rapping in it, but absolutely nothing about drugs, guns, or hoes. It has a message with a purpose and is a brilliant work of art. Sure, there's no orchestra here, but it's no more false than the heavy editing that goes into a Metallica album. They aren't playing in a garage.
While a lot of hip hop/rap does glorify violence and drug use, there are other examples where it tells a story about what actually goes on in the world. It might not be sunshine and flowers, but life usually isn't. Take this sample from UGK's 1994 song "Stoned Junkee":
Look at that, I bet she don't know where her kids at
Used to be all that, now she's dating Mr. Crack
Had her first when she was 13 now he's 11 years
And he's standin' on Texas, sellin' rocks and drinkin' beers
She got another girl, she's 8, stayed with her aunt and uncle
But uncle's sick, cause every night she's [bad things]
[more bad things], who can she tell? Nobody gives a [censored]
She tells anybody [bad things] she'll get [censored] up
So the [censored] keeps goin' on for another six
14 and now she's tired of [bad things]
Got a .38 from her girlfriend in school
Went home, loaded it up and cold smoked the fool
Not a very peachy song, but it's portraying things that actually happened to people and telling a story. It isn't glorifying it, it's talking about how bad the situation is. Obviously this one is a little too harsh for BITOG, so I won't post a link.
I agree the bulk of rap/hip hop is total garbage, but so is the bulk of rock, hipster music, pop, name a genre. There's usually only a handful of truly great artists from most genres. If you hear it on the radio in 2013, it probably isn't very good.
Music is an art, and like visual art I like to recognise what the artist is trying to portray. So I like to see some structure there...if there is a nose and 2 eyes, I want them to be in the same place as they are on my face. So music needs a melody, it needs a rhythm, some cord changes and words I can understand and shape into a meaning. Sometimes I like abstract art, sometimes I like it a bit disturbing, same with the music. But most important is a melody, without that I'm not listening.
Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
I really like the British band MUSE.
So do I.
At the end of the day, true music and musicans have a way with playing with people's emotions and can affect people in ways that should be pleasant and entertaining. Again, this hologram is taking the most important thing away from music, and that is the human element of the singer connecting with the audience. You cannot see the facial expressions of emotions on a cartoon on stage. It is not real and that is my whole point.
Here is an example of the Scorpions, who heavily relied on effects while recording. But, who are talented enough not to rely on these effects while playing live.
I really like the British band MUSE.
So do I.
At the end of the day, true music and musicans have a way with playing with people's emotions and can affect people in ways that should be pleasant and entertaining. Again, this hologram is taking the most important thing away from music, and that is the human element of the singer connecting with the audience. You cannot see the facial expressions of emotions on a cartoon on stage. It is not real and that is my whole point.
Here is an example of the Scorpions, who heavily relied on effects while recording. But, who are talented enough not to rely on these effects while playing live.
uc50ic4more, thanks for some really great insight and info about the recording business. It's always nice to hear from someone who knows what they're talking about
Music has to reach out and touch you somehow.
For some it's a beat, for others there's a message in the lyrics.
I'm one who requires a bit of melody, so I don't listen to much rap/hip hop. But I still like some isolated titles that combine musicality with their stuff.
Anything goes around here, no genre excluded!
For some it's a beat, for others there's a message in the lyrics.
I'm one who requires a bit of melody, so I don't listen to much rap/hip hop. But I still like some isolated titles that combine musicality with their stuff.
Anything goes around here, no genre excluded!
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: 01rangerxl
That's a sweeping generalization
Sure is, but does it not apply to the vast majority of "music" that is in any way popular and falls under these genres?
Quote:
that's no better than calling Metallica overplayed mainstream radio garbage.
Ahhh, but it is! Because Metallica has lyrics with substance on every one of their albums. It puts them in a completely different league from what I'm criticizing, whether the respective song of theirs is mainstream or not.
Quote:
For the record, I own a legit copy of their self titled album from 1990, so Lars can't take me to court.
Thank God!
Quote:
I agree most modern mainstream hip hop or rap is pretty horrible. The Rihanna/Chris Brown "Birthday Cake" atrocity makes me want to vomit and I can't even sit through it. It's a horrendous noise, and a good example of what is NOT even remotely an art form.
OK, so you've just reinforced the point of mine that you took issue with. If most of it is [censored], what is wrong with my sweeping generalization?
Quote:
However, when you look at some true artists, like Lauryn Hill, there is a lot of substance. Take this sample from her 1998 song (and yes, I will call it a song) "Everything is Everything":
I wrote these words for everyone
Who struggles in their youth
Who won't accept deception
Instead of what is truth
It seems we lose the game,
Before we even start to play
Who made these rules? We're so confused
Easily led astray
Let me tell ya that
Everything is everything
Everything is everything
After winter, must come spring
Everything is everything
Doesn't even seem like hip hop when you just read the lyrics, does it?
And how popular was this song?
Quote:
There is some rapping in it, but absolutely nothing about drugs, guns, or hoes. It has a message with a purpose and is a brilliant work of art. Sure, there's no orchestra here, but it's no more false than the heavy editing that goes into a Metallica album. They aren't playing in a garage.
But because it omits those things, it is likely the very reason I've never heard it. I know I know, stereotyping the genre again, but I think you get my point.
Quote:
While a lot of hip hop/rap does glorify violence and drug use, there are other examples where it tells a story about what actually goes on in the world. It might not be sunshine and flowers, but life usually isn't. Take this sample from UGK's 1994 song "Stoned Junkee":
Look at that, I bet she don't know where her kids at
Used to be all that, now she's dating Mr. Crack
Had her first when she was 13 now he's 11 years
And he's standin' on Texas, sellin' rocks and drinkin' beers
She got another girl, she's 8, stayed with her aunt and uncle
But uncle's sick, cause every night she's [bad things]
[more bad things], who can she tell? Nobody gives a [censored]
She tells anybody [bad things] she'll get [censored] up
So the [censored] keeps goin' on for another six
14 and now she's tired of [bad things]
Got a .38 from her girlfriend in school
Went home, loaded it up and cold smoked the fool
Not a very peachy song, but it's portraying things that actually happened to people and telling a story. It isn't glorifying it, it's talking about how bad the situation is. Obviously this one is a little too harsh for BITOG, so I won't post a link.
I'm really not a fan of the English language being brutalized, so I can't "identify" with those lyrics. I like your Lauryn Hill example a lot better.
I mean, Garth Brook's song "The Thunder Rolls" portrays much the same message as above, except that it doesn't involve cursing or ebonics
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I agree the bulk of rap/hip hop is total garbage, but so is the bulk of rock, hipster music, pop, name a genre. There's usually only a handful of truly great artists from most genres. If you hear it on the radio in 2013, it probably isn't very good.
You've just made a few generalizations of your own there
The problem is that you've taken the initiative to find the hidden gems in all the garbage and it subsequently makes you defensive about the music. But at the same time, you've conceded that the vast majority of the music is exactly like my stereotyped mockery.
I'm not a big fan of pop music either, FWIW. But I do feel that hard rock and heavier music in general tend to have far more meaningful lyrics than the mainstream garbage (using your generalization here
) from any of the other genres. This means, Rap, R&B, Hiphop, Pop....etc. The types of music that are popular from the artists in those realms strike me as being pretty "basic", just like their audience
The little thuglets listen to their gangsta-rap and the glorification of violence and then they go out and try to emulate it. There isn't a though process involved, from either the "artist" or the audience, because if there was, they'd realize that what is being conveyed and what is being absorbed is absolute garbage! It is the reversion of civilization. I mean who aspires to be something like that? Nobody with anything between their ears, that's for sure! Ending up dead or strung-out on meth is hardly what I'd call a viable "lifestyle" choice, would you?
As you've probably gathered, I'm extremely opposed to the lifestyle that this type of music promotes and glorifies. It demonstrates to the not-so-brights that this is an acceptable way to live, and then we end up with sects of those people ganging together and causing real issues for those people who actually manged to be successful. Getting jumped by thuglet gang-bangers who've been drinking and listening to 50-cent that end up shooting you with some stolen firearm because they wanted the 50 bucks in your wallet is something I don't think anybody desires. I've seen enough real life examples of this in my small town, I KNOW it is a real issue. You can't FIX stupid, but you can certainly guide and influence the direction that he takes in life.
That's a sweeping generalization
Sure is, but does it not apply to the vast majority of "music" that is in any way popular and falls under these genres?
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that's no better than calling Metallica overplayed mainstream radio garbage.
Ahhh, but it is! Because Metallica has lyrics with substance on every one of their albums. It puts them in a completely different league from what I'm criticizing, whether the respective song of theirs is mainstream or not.
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For the record, I own a legit copy of their self titled album from 1990, so Lars can't take me to court.
Thank God!
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I agree most modern mainstream hip hop or rap is pretty horrible. The Rihanna/Chris Brown "Birthday Cake" atrocity makes me want to vomit and I can't even sit through it. It's a horrendous noise, and a good example of what is NOT even remotely an art form.
OK, so you've just reinforced the point of mine that you took issue with. If most of it is [censored], what is wrong with my sweeping generalization?
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However, when you look at some true artists, like Lauryn Hill, there is a lot of substance. Take this sample from her 1998 song (and yes, I will call it a song) "Everything is Everything":
I wrote these words for everyone
Who struggles in their youth
Who won't accept deception
Instead of what is truth
It seems we lose the game,
Before we even start to play
Who made these rules? We're so confused
Easily led astray
Let me tell ya that
Everything is everything
Everything is everything
After winter, must come spring
Everything is everything
Doesn't even seem like hip hop when you just read the lyrics, does it?
And how popular was this song?
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There is some rapping in it, but absolutely nothing about drugs, guns, or hoes. It has a message with a purpose and is a brilliant work of art. Sure, there's no orchestra here, but it's no more false than the heavy editing that goes into a Metallica album. They aren't playing in a garage.
But because it omits those things, it is likely the very reason I've never heard it. I know I know, stereotyping the genre again, but I think you get my point.
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While a lot of hip hop/rap does glorify violence and drug use, there are other examples where it tells a story about what actually goes on in the world. It might not be sunshine and flowers, but life usually isn't. Take this sample from UGK's 1994 song "Stoned Junkee":
Look at that, I bet she don't know where her kids at
Used to be all that, now she's dating Mr. Crack
Had her first when she was 13 now he's 11 years
And he's standin' on Texas, sellin' rocks and drinkin' beers
She got another girl, she's 8, stayed with her aunt and uncle
But uncle's sick, cause every night she's [bad things]
[more bad things], who can she tell? Nobody gives a [censored]
She tells anybody [bad things] she'll get [censored] up
So the [censored] keeps goin' on for another six
14 and now she's tired of [bad things]
Got a .38 from her girlfriend in school
Went home, loaded it up and cold smoked the fool
Not a very peachy song, but it's portraying things that actually happened to people and telling a story. It isn't glorifying it, it's talking about how bad the situation is. Obviously this one is a little too harsh for BITOG, so I won't post a link.
I'm really not a fan of the English language being brutalized, so I can't "identify" with those lyrics. I like your Lauryn Hill example a lot better.
I mean, Garth Brook's song "The Thunder Rolls" portrays much the same message as above, except that it doesn't involve cursing or ebonics
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I agree the bulk of rap/hip hop is total garbage, but so is the bulk of rock, hipster music, pop, name a genre. There's usually only a handful of truly great artists from most genres. If you hear it on the radio in 2013, it probably isn't very good.
You've just made a few generalizations of your own there
The problem is that you've taken the initiative to find the hidden gems in all the garbage and it subsequently makes you defensive about the music. But at the same time, you've conceded that the vast majority of the music is exactly like my stereotyped mockery.
I'm not a big fan of pop music either, FWIW. But I do feel that hard rock and heavier music in general tend to have far more meaningful lyrics than the mainstream garbage (using your generalization here
As you've probably gathered, I'm extremely opposed to the lifestyle that this type of music promotes and glorifies. It demonstrates to the not-so-brights that this is an acceptable way to live, and then we end up with sects of those people ganging together and causing real issues for those people who actually manged to be successful. Getting jumped by thuglet gang-bangers who've been drinking and listening to 50-cent that end up shooting you with some stolen firearm because they wanted the 50 bucks in your wallet is something I don't think anybody desires. I've seen enough real life examples of this in my small town, I KNOW it is a real issue. You can't FIX stupid, but you can certainly guide and influence the direction that he takes in life.
My main point was, the bulk of what you find in all genres is of pretty questionable quality and promotes stupidity in one form or another. I guess that is a generalization, but I call it like I see it. You are right that glorification of the hood life is prevalent in a lot of rap/hip hop, but to me that doesn't make the entire genre a write off anymore than pop country makes country music a write off, or "Emo" makes punk a write off. Limiting yourself to one or two genres can let a lot of gems slip by, so I tend to explore everything and then pick and choose what I like.
I don't think people decide to commit crimes because they heard about it from rap or hip hop; there are many other situational influences that lead to someone crossing that line. Perhaps the glorification doesn't help, but I don't think blasting Justin Bieber noise through the ghetto will curb crime at all.
I don't think people decide to commit crimes because they heard about it from rap or hip hop; there are many other situational influences that lead to someone crossing that line. Perhaps the glorification doesn't help, but I don't think blasting Justin Bieber noise through the ghetto will curb crime at all.
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OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: 01rangerxl
My main point was, the bulk of what you find in all genres is of pretty questionable quality and promotes stupidity in one form or another. I guess that is a generalization, but I call it like I see it. You are right that glorification of the hood life is prevalent in a lot of rap/hip hop, but to me that doesn't make the entire genre a write off anymore than pop country makes country music a write off, or "Emo" makes punk a write off. Limiting yourself to one or two genres can let a lot of gems slip by, so I tend to explore everything and then pick and choose what I like.
I don't think people decide to commit crimes because they heard about it from rap or hip hop; there are many other situational influences that lead to someone crossing that line. Perhaps the glorification doesn't help, but I don't think blasting Justin Bieber noise through the ghetto will curb crime at all.
No, but middle class kids that get wrapped up in the "thug life" because they think it is cool IS a problem. These are the same kids that, 15-20 years ago, would have been listening to AC/DC, Metallica, GnR, Bon Jovi....etc.
The problem isn't the ghetto kids in the ghetto. They know what the ghetto is and what "thug life" is truly about because they live it! Some of them are even lucky enough to get out. I don't think any of them would consider the life they live something to pine after, do you?
And while I agree that the mind-numbing content in all popular music is of little substance, and may, as you've noted "promote stupidity", I think it must be pointed out that those impressionable minds are going to be influenced one way or another and the potential damaged caused by them listening to Taylor Swift's 400th relationship is a lot less than them aspiring to join a gang and "get their thug on" because they've listened to too much "fiddy".
My main point was, the bulk of what you find in all genres is of pretty questionable quality and promotes stupidity in one form or another. I guess that is a generalization, but I call it like I see it. You are right that glorification of the hood life is prevalent in a lot of rap/hip hop, but to me that doesn't make the entire genre a write off anymore than pop country makes country music a write off, or "Emo" makes punk a write off. Limiting yourself to one or two genres can let a lot of gems slip by, so I tend to explore everything and then pick and choose what I like.
I don't think people decide to commit crimes because they heard about it from rap or hip hop; there are many other situational influences that lead to someone crossing that line. Perhaps the glorification doesn't help, but I don't think blasting Justin Bieber noise through the ghetto will curb crime at all.
No, but middle class kids that get wrapped up in the "thug life" because they think it is cool IS a problem. These are the same kids that, 15-20 years ago, would have been listening to AC/DC, Metallica, GnR, Bon Jovi....etc.
The problem isn't the ghetto kids in the ghetto. They know what the ghetto is and what "thug life" is truly about because they live it! Some of them are even lucky enough to get out. I don't think any of them would consider the life they live something to pine after, do you?
And while I agree that the mind-numbing content in all popular music is of little substance, and may, as you've noted "promote stupidity", I think it must be pointed out that those impressionable minds are going to be influenced one way or another and the potential damaged caused by them listening to Taylor Swift's 400th relationship is a lot less than them aspiring to join a gang and "get their thug on" because they've listened to too much "fiddy".
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
...No, but middle class kids that get wrapped up in the "thug life" because they think it is cool IS a problem. These are the same kids that, 15-20 years ago, would have been listening to AC/DC, Metallica, GnR, Bon Jovi....etc.
Hey I like GnR as much as the next guy (for my money, Appetite for Destruction is one of the greatest albums of the last 30 years) but it's nothing but sex, drugs, and rock 'n roll. Rocket Queen, Nightrain, Anything Goes, etc. Not exactly wholesome subjects for teens! Of which I was one when it came out
Your objections probably sound similar to what the old fuddy duddies said about Elvis and his gyrating hips back in the day
jeff
...No, but middle class kids that get wrapped up in the "thug life" because they think it is cool IS a problem. These are the same kids that, 15-20 years ago, would have been listening to AC/DC, Metallica, GnR, Bon Jovi....etc.
Hey I like GnR as much as the next guy (for my money, Appetite for Destruction is one of the greatest albums of the last 30 years) but it's nothing but sex, drugs, and rock 'n roll. Rocket Queen, Nightrain, Anything Goes, etc. Not exactly wholesome subjects for teens! Of which I was one when it came out
Your objections probably sound similar to what the old fuddy duddies said about Elvis and his gyrating hips back in the day
jeff
Originally Posted By: greenjp
Your objections probably sound similar to what the old fuddy duddies said about Elvis and his gyrating hips back in the day
jeff
The cycle repeats and repeats and repeats. No one ever sees themselves *becoming* the fuddy-duddies, though!
Having said that, there is a LOT of music spanning across a lot of genres, cultures and styles that I play for my daughters; and there is a LOT of music that I intend for them to remain blissfully unaware of!
Your objections probably sound similar to what the old fuddy duddies said about Elvis and his gyrating hips back in the day
jeff
The cycle repeats and repeats and repeats. No one ever sees themselves *becoming* the fuddy-duddies, though!
Having said that, there is a LOT of music spanning across a lot of genres, cultures and styles that I play for my daughters; and there is a LOT of music that I intend for them to remain blissfully unaware of!
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