What is it with people and winter driving?

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
And it's not like you can start drifting on public roads, because that's the only situation when 4wd/AWD will pull you in and help you steer. Under normal driving the car will act as any other.


WHAT???????

4WD absolutely helps you to steer in bad conditions. There is no comparing a 2WD vehicle taking a corner on slippery roads and a 4WD doing it at the same speeds. The 4WD will provide a much more controlled turn every time.


It depends. My tires want to plow forward in 4wd if it's too slippery. I'm not talking about full time 4wd ..but just part time 50:50. As you turn, the rear pushes you and the front, usually due to king pin inclination (there's a newer term), has the smallest contact patch. It ends up being a free floating rotating side slider. Cornering in 4wd is virtually a coasting only situation.

In 2wd mode, I can merely kick the rear end out if that occurred otherwise with a blip of the gas. The locker will lose traction with the drag of the undriven front end.

That all said, 4wd merely allows me to be deliberate and calm.

 

[Max_Wander]

IMO proper winter tires are far more valuable than 4WD for street operation, without a doubt. Combine them, and thats a pretty solid combination!

 

[PeteTheFarmer]

Originally Posted By: Max_Wander
IMO proper winter tires are far more valuable than 4WD for street operation, without a doubt. Combine them, and thats a pretty solid combination!


I definitely think my Civic with winter tires does better in snow than my 4wd Avalanche with the factory tires. Winter tires on the latter would likely give it a big advantage over the Civic.

 

[NHHEMI]

People need to seperate( for the sake of this discussion )tires and what they add from the basic abilities of 4WD/AWD. Either you are talking about the overall general advantages of AWD/4WD vs RWD/2WD and even FWD OR you are talking what tires will do for a vehicle in bad weather. They are 2 different things IF you are trying to say there is no advantage to AWD/4WD.

Tires are very important regardless of drive type I agree. The Goodyear Wrangler HP tires that came on my 08 Ram had it acting like I was on greased skis even in 4WD. When 4WD was engaged however traction was a million times better than when I had it in 2WD. That is my point. Now, the new tires I have put on to replace the OE tires are night and day better in 2WD than the OE's were in 4WD. However, in 4WD they are that much better there too.

Tires and the benefits of different tread designs and such really are a different discussion. They enhance traction for sure but it is proportional to the type of drive you have. A tire that is better in 2WD vs a lousy tire will be that much better and then some on a 4WD/AWD vehicle.

My comments were about the basic advantages to AWD/4WD. If people are talking about tires that is different. Don't say 4WD provides no advantage over 2WD however if you are basing that on the tires used. If that is the case put the same tires on the AWD/4WD that you are using on the 2WD to do so well in the snow. Do that and the 4WD will eat the 2WD alive every time.

To me tirres are not a factor in this discussion because we( or I was anyway )were speaking about general theories and ideas.

 

[froggy81500]

one thing that I see around here is these morons with the 4wd SUV's driving like idiots in the snow. They think with 4wd they are perfectly fine. But guess what? if all 4 tires hit a patch of ice it doesn't matter much at all. I either see people driving like morons too fast in the snow or very fearful people driving too slow. there are not enough drivers who feel confident with their driving abilities and have a sense to feel what their vehicle is doing. I'm no NASCAR driver but I know how to handle winter driving and I know what I'm feeling when my car is doing something like starting to slide, etc...

 

[rpn453]

Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
My comments were about the basic advantages to AWD/4WD. If people are talking about tires that is different. Don't say 4WD provides no advantage over 2WD however if you are basing that on the tires used. If that is the case put the same tires on the AWD/4WD that you are using on the 2WD to do so well in the snow. Do that and the 4WD will eat the 2WD alive every time.


I had studded Cooper Discoverer M+S winter tires on the Pathfinder and I've been using studded Cooper Weathermaster ST2 winter tires on my Mazda3, so my personal experience includes similar tires. The Pathfinder and Mazda3 also both have manual transmissions.

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: froggy81500
one thing that I see around here is these morons with the 4wd SUV's driving like idiots in the snow. They think with 4wd they are perfectly fine. But guess what? if all 4 tires hit a patch of ice it doesn't matter much at all. I either see people driving like morons too fast in the snow or very fearful people driving too slow. there are not enough drivers who feel confident with their driving abilities and have a sense to feel what their vehicle is doing. I'm no NASCAR driver but I know how to handle winter driving and I know what I'm feeling when my car is doing something like starting to slide, etc...


Agreed. 4WD/AWD does not mean you just flick a switch and you can drive the same in a howling blizzard as you do on a sunny July day. 4WD/AWD definitely help but you still have to pay attention and take it easy. If you do that you lose control much less often if at all in 4WD/AWD.

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: rpn453
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
My comments were about the basic advantages to AWD/4WD. If people are talking about tires that is different. Don't say 4WD provides no advantage over 2WD however if you are basing that on the tires used. If that is the case put the same tires on the AWD/4WD that you are using on the 2WD to do so well in the snow. Do that and the 4WD will eat the 2WD alive every time.


I had studded Cooper Discoverer M+S winter tires on the Pathfinder and I've been using studded Cooper Weathermaster ST2 winter tires on my Mazda3, so my personal experience includes similar tires. The Pathfinder and Mazda3 also both have manual transmissions.


Now that I have a better grasp of where you and others were coming from with your comments, IMO, a lot of the comments would be more appropriate to a tires for bad weather discussion. I "thought" the direction of this thread was heading to the advantages, or not, of 4WD/AWD vs RWD/2WD when I chimed in.

Sure seemed to me like people were saying there was no real advantage to 4WD/AWD over RWD/2WD??? IF you base that on the tires used then really you can not say there is no advantage to 4WD/AWD because put those same tires that help a RWD/2WD onto a 4WD/AWD and it wiill run circles around the 2WD/RWD( no pun intended ).

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Sure seemed to me like people were saying there was no real advantage to 4WD/AWD over RWD/2WD???

People were saying there is little to no advantage to 4WD/AWD in a corner or when braking, for most drivers, in most situations.

I'm sure no one would ever debate that 4WD/AWD is the best possible thing for a standing start, or for clawing your way through deep snow or up a hill.

 

[Mr_Incredible]

Having driven 4wd trucks for the last 21 years I can say that, tires being equal, 4wd will be better than 2wd in every low-traction situation. Sorry if that tweaks the noses of 2wd fans, but it's a simple fact.

4wd driving has it's limitations, but those limitations are waaaay advanced over 2wd. Don't include chains...they're light years ahead of no chains in 2wd, but the front offers next to no steering abilites and when the snow gets too deep to steer all you can do is try to back out and try again. Even moreso with ice.

Ice in 4wd? You still have twice the traction over 2wd except when there is no traction at all. If there IS any traction you're twice as good off. I've sat in 4 tiny ruts in a parking spot with all four wheels spinning and no forward motion, so I understand what gives with ice. But again, if there's any traction at all, you're better off in 4wd.

As for the idiot SUV drivers still crashing when in 4wd, that's more of an indictment of their driving style and abilites rather than their vehicle. I suspect that many that are badmouthing the SUV drivers are more anti-SUV than anti-stupid drivers. Just my opinion.

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: Mr_Incredible
Having driven 4wd trucks for the last 21 years I can say that, tires being equal, 4wd will be better than 2wd in every low-traction situation. Sorry if that tweaks the noses of 2wd fans, but it's a simple fact.

4wd driving has it's limitations, but those limitations are waaaay advanced over 2wd. Don't include chains...they're light years ahead of no chains in 2wd, but the front offers next to no steering abilites and when the snow gets too deep to steer all you can do is try to back out and try again. Even moreso with ice.

Ice in 4wd? You still have twice the traction over 2wd except when there is no traction at all. If there IS any traction you're twice as good off. I've sat in 4 tiny ruts in a parking spot with all four wheels spinning and no forward motion, so I understand what gives with ice. But again, if there's any traction at all, you're better off in 4wd.

As for the idiot SUV drivers still crashing when in 4wd, that's more of an indictment of their driving style and abilites rather than their vehicle. I suspect that many that are badmouthing the SUV drivers are more anti-SUV than anti-stupid drivers. Just my opinion.





Someone finally gets it!

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Sure seemed to me like people were saying there was no real advantage to 4WD/AWD over RWD/2WD???

People were saying there is little to no advantage to 4WD/AWD in a corner or when braking, for most drivers, in most situations.


Sorry, I completely disagree with that. In corners 4WD & AWD absolutely help you out in bad weather. BIG TIME! It is not even a contest with a 2WD vehicle. As the guy above said you have 4 wheels that are powered so if the rear slips the front can pull you back. That isn't happening with 2WD. It is night and day difference taking a corner in 4WD/AWD vs a 2WD/RWD vehicle. If there was no advantage to 4WD or AWD I wouldn't waste my money on it. I could get a $25K 2WD truck instead of a $35K 4WD.

Even in braking 4WD does help. When you are in 4WD and let off the gas it is like you have down shifted( not as much in 4H as 4L but it is there - this down shift effect also helps in cornering because it helps to slow the vehicle down as you let off the gas going into the turn ). In 4WD you have an extra axle engaged that is no longer free spooling so it adds friction to the driveline and thus it slows you down much quicker.

Think I am nuts? Try doing a coasting stop sometime in a 4WD vehicle from 30 MPH. Do it in 2WD and then switch over to 4H and do it again. Just let off the gas and don't touch the brakes. See how much shorter you come to a stop with 4WD engaged. In a part time AWD vehicle it won't help you out because the AWD only comes on when the rear wheels slip but for 4WD it does.

If all 4 wheels are on ice and can not get traction 4WD and AWD will do no better than 2WD. I will agree on that. There has to be something there for the tires to get traction on or you are not moving. Other than that these arguments and theories that 4WD/AWD vehicles do not provide advantages to 2WD vehicles are crazy. Sorry not to be a jerk but it is crazy. Been driving in bad winters since I 1st started driving. There is no contest between 2WD/RWD, FWD, and AWD/4WD. All around I would take AWD/4WD over the others in a split second.

 

[labman]

Originally Posted By: Mr_Incredible


Ice in 4wd? You still have twice the traction over 2wd except when there is no traction at all. If there IS any traction you're twice as good off. I've sat in 4 tiny ruts in a parking spot with all four wheels spinning and no forward motion, so I understand what gives with ice. But again, if there's any traction at all, you're better off in 4wd.




I never remember setting anywhere on ice in a FWD car. I could see 4WD being better if you had to back up a hill on ice. With the typical rear torque bias, 4WD is also more apt to swap ends.

1 Ground clearance

If the weight is on the floor pan, it doesn't make much difference how many wheels or which ones are spinning.

2 Driver's attitude.

Knowing not to exceed the vehicle's or driver's capability.

3 Driver's skill

Needs no explainition.

4 Vehicle

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
In corners 4WD & AWD absolutely help you out in bad weather. BIG TIME! It is not even a contest with a 2WD vehicle. As the guy above said you have 4 wheels that are powered so if the rear slips the front can pull you back.

Now you're cherry picking.

We are talking about most people, who have no idea what they're doing. If you don't know how and when to use the gas in an AWD car, it's useless.

Clearly you know what you're doing in the snow, so this argument does not apply to you. I'm glad you're happy with a 4WD vehicle.


Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Even in braking 4WD does help.

Not if you're traction limited, which is 99% of the time in the snow.


Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Try doing a coasting stop sometime in a 4WD vehicle from 30 MPH. Do it in 2WD and then switch over to 4H and do it again. Just let off the gas and don't touch the brakes. See how much shorter you come to a stop with 4WD engaged.

Why would I do that? I don't brake with my engine. I brake with my brakes, and I'm pretty sure most people do as well.

Besides, you're talking about a truck. Trucks are VERY front-heavy. Of course they work better in 4WD. No one ever said they wouldn't, and no one in their right mind ever would.

When we talk about RWD vehicles, we are talking about RWD, period. No transfer case, no front axle. Less weight, better weight distribution, and usually a lower center of gravity. BIG difference between that and a truck in 2WD mode.

 

[Colt45ws]

Mmmhmm. When I drove a 4.7L Ram with 3.92LSD once I halfway lost it in the rain. Took a right hand turn under power and the back end came around. The is light as . It was the first time I had driven anything but my FWD Cavalier in the rain though. The Vic has enough weight to keep it planted and I have not had a problem keeping it where I want it to go. I think it has a 55/45 distribution, IIRC.

 

[Patman]

With my Corvette I put the auto trans into neutral a lot when coming to a stop on an icy road and it definitely works! When I leave it in gear the torque of the engine is too much and it's a lot harder to stop. If I'm going slow enough on flat ground, sometimes just putting it in neutral (and not touching the brakes) is enough to get the car to come to a complete stop in just a few feet. It's definitely a lot safer than trying to fight the torque of the engine with the brakes.

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Sure seemed to me like people were saying there was no real advantage to 4WD/AWD over RWD/2WD???

People were saying there is little to no advantage to 4WD/AWD in a corner or when braking, for most drivers, in most situations.

I'm sure no one would ever debate that 4WD/AWD is the best possible thing for a standing start, or for clawing your way through deep snow or up a hill.


Exactly. My wife's Wrangler is king up until about 24" of snow. At that point you're backing up and plowing forward. Tall and skinny BFG MallTerrains (high ground pressure). Mine doesn't have the ground clearance ..but could probably manage almost as well with my more aggressive meats.

..but my departed mom's FWD Corsica with 4 studded snows was more manageable overall in lesser instances.

..but ours is not a full time 4wd system. You have to engage it in and out as conditions allow.

Steering a solid axle with a locked 4wd system (no torque bias/spliting or interaxle differential) is as refined as Andre the Giant doing ballet.

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
In corners 4WD & AWD absolutely help you out in bad weather. BIG TIME! It is not even a contest with a 2WD vehicle. As the guy above said you have 4 wheels that are powered so if the rear slips the front can pull you back.

Now you're cherry picking.

We are talking about most people, who have no idea what they're doing. If you don't know how and when to use the gas in an AWD car, it's useless.

Clearly you know what you're doing in the snow, so this argument does not apply to you. I'm glad you're happy with a 4WD vehicle.


Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Even in braking 4WD does help.

Not if you're traction limited, which is 99% of the time in the snow.


Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Try doing a coasting stop sometime in a 4WD vehicle from 30 MPH. Do it in 2WD and then switch over to 4H and do it again. Just let off the gas and don't touch the brakes. See how much shorter you come to a stop with 4WD engaged.

Why would I do that? I don't brake with my engine. I brake with my brakes, and I'm pretty sure most people do as well.

Besides, you're talking about a truck. Trucks are VERY front-heavy. Of course they work better in 4WD. No one ever said they wouldn't, and no one in their right mind ever would.

When we talk about RWD vehicles, we are talking about RWD, period. No transfer case, no front axle. Less weight, better weight distribution, and usually a lower center of gravity. BIG difference between that and a truck in 2WD mode.


I am not cherry picking in the least. I am merely pointing out where your comments are wrong. If you are going to tell people they are wrong be able to back it up. You have not done that. Just the opposite actually.

I have owned every type of vehicle there is from RWD cars to FWD cars to 2WD and 4WD trucks to AWD SUV's. I have experience across the board. Just pointing that out. My experience is not all just trucks. You guys were talking about a LOT more than just RWD cars period. You were implying they were as good as any 4WD/AWD. Don't try and weasel out now.

4WD and AWD help ANYONE in bad weather not just an experienced bad weather driver. Kind of funny to read you saying those are useless to someone who doesn't know how to use them. An experienced driver will know how to use them better obviously but I would much rather my 16 year old kid driving in his/her first storm be behind the wheel of a 4WD/AWD than anything else. Much less room for driver error in those.

Yes, 4WD absolutely DOES help you to slow down. For the reasons I talk about. I guess we need a lesson on how to brake in bad weather now too( for all vehicles ). Why would you brake with your engine? That right there sums up why you and a few others have no business telling people the advantages and disadvantages of driving 4WD/AWD vehicles. It shows you have no understanding of how to drive them, or frankly ANY vehicle, in bad weather.

FYI - you brake with the engine and not the brakes heading into a corner, going down a steep hill, or even on a regular flat and straight road at times. You just start stopping sooner than you normally would by easing off the gas. You can't allways do it but it is a common safe driving practice for bad weather. Helps you to stay in control of the vehicle regardless of the drive type.

Doing so keeps the tires moving which provides traction while the driveline drag slows the vehicle down safely. Applying the brakes grabs the rotors/drums and can stop them from spinning if you hit a really slipepry spot which will send the vehicle out of control. Using the engine by down shifting or the natural down shift effect of 4WD being engaged causes the vehicle to slow down at a more controlled rate than trying to brake 100% to do it. Anyone who knows bad weather driving( be it in a RWD car or a 4WD truck )knows the faster you are going the less you want to use the brakes.

With the brakes on if you hit an ice patch the brakes being applied actually lock up the brakes and the tires stop moving and thus the vehicle can slide a LOT easier. That is the reason why if you do start to slip while using your brakes in bad weather you pump them rather than keeping them applied. It lets the tires keep moving which keeps traction. If you keep pressure on them it keeps the tires from moving and you will just keep on slipping.

I am out of this. Some of you guys apparantly mean well but you either don't have a good handle on bad weather driving or you are not very good at expressing what you mean in writing. I am surprised as well based on the locations some of you are apparantly from. I would expect different comments from people in those locations.

There are definitely guys on here I would not want too ride with in a storm.

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: Onmo'Eegusee
Mmmhmm. When I drove a 4.7L Ram with 3.92LSD once I halfway lost it in the rain. Took a right hand turn under power and the back end came around. The is light as . It was the first time I had driven anything but my FWD Cavalier in the rain though. The Vic has enough weight to keep it planted and I have not had a problem keeping it where I want it to go. I think it has a 55/45 distribution, IIRC.


Based on the 3.92 gear ratio and LSD comment I can say with almost 100% certainty that Ram had the 20" tire option. If so and it still had the OE issue Goodyear Wrangler HP tires that right there is why you lost the rear end in the rain. If the truck had the HEMI with all the extra torque and power you probably would have been looking back where you had come from. Those tires are absolutely miserable even on dry bare pavement! In rain they are scary and in snow they are dangerous( even in 4WD ). 95%+ of Ram owners swap them out ASAP to better tires. Those tires could be put on a tank and they would slip. They STINK!

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
I am not cherry picking in the least. I am merely pointing out where your comments are wrong.

Taking comments out of context and ignoring qualifiers = cherry picking.


Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
You were implying they were as good as any 4WD/AWD. Don't try and weasel out now.

Show me where.


Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Yes, 4WD absolutely DOES help you to slow down. For the reasons I talk about. I guess we need a lesson on how to brake in bad weather now too( for all vehicles ). Why would you brake with your engine? That right there sums up why you and a few others have no business telling people the advantages and disadvantages of driving 4WD/AWD vehicles. It shows you have no understanding of how to drive them, or frankly ANY vehicle, in bad weather.

First, I never had a problem engine braking in my super slippery RWD coupe.

Second, I have never driven a car that is so poorly sorted that just touching the brakes makes the wheels lock up. Everything I have driven, including my dad's old '95 Lincoln Continental, had better brake modulation than that. If that means I'm not qualified to talk about snow driving, then so be it.

Third, I got my RWD car up and down a steep hill on a twisty road with a thick layer of pack snow on the ground and 15-foot visibility through a heavy snow shower. Your move.