What is it with people and winter driving?

[rpn453]

Originally Posted By: paul246
Huh??


I'm saying that AWD does nothing to help you control the car unless you're driving aggressively and know what you're doing. Sure, you can be more ham-footed in an AWD than a RWD without losing control as long as you keep the front wheels pointed in the right direction, but it's no more forgiving than a FWD. What it may do is make it seem like there is more traction available than there actually is because straight-line acceleration is so much better. Those who don't know how to drive would probably be better off with less of that so they might realize how little traction they have when it comes time to stop or turn.

AWD certainly can improve control during cornering on soft surfaces if you have tires that can dig well and a driver that is willing to use the throttle to spin the tires while steering (rally style), but that type of driver is not the one we're discussing here, and most modern cars with stability control don't even allow you to do that anyway.

While we're on the subject, how exactly is AWD better than 4WD for traction and directional stability?

 

[d00df00d]

As I understand, 4WD means a static torque split. AWD has at least some ability to send torque where it is needed.

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
And it's not like you can start drifting on public roads, because that's the only situation when 4wd/AWD will pull you in and help you steer. Under normal driving the car will act as any other.


WHAT???????

4WD absolutely helps you to steer in bad conditions. There is no comparing a 2WD vehicle taking a corner on slippery roads and a 4WD doing it at the same speeds. The 4WD will provide a much more controlled turn every time.

 

[ViragoBry]

I thought I'd died and gone to heaven when I still lived in Wyoming and bought my AWD Eagle Talon. The town I lived in was VERY hilly. You literally couldn't get from one side of town to the other without negotiating some steep hills at some point..there was no going around them.

Some of these hills intersect main roads, which necessitates them having stop signs or lights. Starting from a standtill on an icy hill can be a nightmarish proposition, especially in some of the cars I've owned. My 1978 Monza was the clear winner in the "I-SUCK" category. Snow tires, sand bags in the hatchback...nothing helped that car. I often found myself in situations where I would actually slide backwards when attempting to start off on an icy hill. Neither one of my Civics did that well either, as they really didn't weigh anything.

Then the Talon came into my life. What a Godsend AWD can be, as long as you don't treat it like the be-all, end-all and use it to drive fast in bad conditions. But NOTHING helps when it comes time to stop, especially at those intersections where the packed snow has been polished to a high gloss by the hundreds of cars that passed over it before me. Stopping distances are increased 10x or more, so accelerating in higher gears and decelerating in lower gears is essential, along with allowing LONG distances of gradual deceleration with gentle braking near the end. You simply have to allow yourself more time to get where you're going, or you're likely to be a lot later once you've spent time filling out the accident report and waiting on the tow truck.

It was shocking to move to Dallas and witness so many people who have no clue how to drive in snow and ice. I realize it's an acquired skill, but common sense should prevent much of what I have seen.

I stay home because I'm afraid of THEM, not the roads.

 

[d00df00d]

Assuming equal weight and weight distribution, yes. 4WD/AWD can help you corner in some cases, if you know what you're doing.

The trick is, almost all 4WD vehicles have a forward-biased weight distribution. RWD vehicles are much closer to 50/50. That changes the game quite a bit.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
And it's not like you can start drifting on public roads, because that's the only situation when 4wd/AWD will pull you in and help you steer. Under normal driving the car will act as any other.


WHAT???????

4WD absolutely helps you to steer in bad conditions. There is no comparing a 2WD vehicle taking a corner on slippery roads and a 4WD doing it at the same speeds. The 4WD will provide a much more controlled turn every time.



Look at this post, rpn453 hit the nail in the head:

Quote:
I'm saying that AWD does nothing to help you control the car unless you're driving aggressively and know what you're doing. Sure, you can be more ham-footed in an AWD than a RWD without losing control as long as you keep the front wheels pointed in the right direction, but it's no more forgiving than a FWD. What it may do is make it seem like there is more traction available than there actually is because straight-line acceleration is so much better. Those who don't know how to drive would probably be better off with less of that so they might realize how little traction they have when it comes time to stop or turn.

AWD certainly can improve control during cornering on soft surfaces if you have tires that can dig well and a driver that is willing to use the throttle to spin the tires while steering (rally style), but that type of driver is not the one we're discussing here, and most modern cars with stability control don't even allow you to do that anyway.
While we're on the subject, how exactly is AWD better than 4WD for traction and directional stability?


For normal style of driving when you are applying brakes, or just steering, AWD does not help you at all. Your car will either oversteer or understeer, depending on how the suspension, weight is set up, that is all I was trying to say, you have to use accelerato to help you with steering (like I said, the car will start pulling you in to the turn), which is counter intuitive for most drivers and probably dangerous on public roads.

 

[river_rat]

Originally Posted By: ViragoBry
I stay home because I'm afraid of THEM, not the roads.

Ya. Me too.

 

[mstrjon32]

Originally Posted By: bepperb
In our manual, I see your point, or on a non ABS car it does serve to lessen the chance of locked front wheels, but non-ABS stick shift cars are a rarity these days.


I'm proud to say that my 4x4 is both stick shift and non-ABS.

 

[rpn453]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
As I understand, 4WD means a static torque split. AWD has at least some ability to send torque where it is needed.


Some 4WD systems use a center differential, like the Jeep Quadra-Trac. So it's functionally not much different than a fully mechanical AWD system, like on manual transmission Subarus.

But yeah, that is the way I typically differentiate 4WD vs. AWD, and I'd probably refer to the Quadra-Trac as AWD. However, I don't see any disadvantage to a static torque split aside from the inability to use it at high or low speeds on high-traction surfaces. How can you beat consistent and predictable power to all four wheels? You could even apply stability or traction control to a 4WD system if you want a computer to limit individual wheels from spinning.

I'll add that I strongly prefer 4WD or AWD (especially fully mechanical systems) over FWD or RWD for winter driving. It certainly helps me get around more easily through quicker acceleration! I just don't see it as a safety feature, at least not compared to FWD, unless you have to drive through heavy snow in secluded areas.

 

[NHHEMI]

I am begining to wonder if some of the folks in this thread claiming 4WD does not provide superior driving ability in bad weather vs 2WD have ever owned/driven a vehicle with 4WD in bad weather( despite where they live suggesting they may have )? The statements made here by some have me just...

I have lived my entire life in NH and we see nasty winters every year with a ton of snow storms as well as sleet and freezing rain. Not a winter road condition you could find anywhere else not found here. I have driven everything from RWD cars to FWD cars to AWD SUV's to 2WD & 4WD trucks in those conditions. There is NO CONTEST! 4WD and AWD provide vastly superior traction and cornering stability not to mention improved stop and go. It isn't even close vs RWD and 2WD vehicles and even FWD.

While the comments about 4WD and AWD not being 100% a guarantee of stopping, cornering, etc... are actually true they sure do help a LOT! The way some have worded their responses indicates they don't understand just what a big diifference AWD/4WD does make. Probably because they haven't driven one in bad weather to compare to RWD/2WD? Only explanation that makes any sense to me after driving in our bad winters for 20+ years.

You absolutely can push AWD and 4WD too far. Just as you can RWD/2WD and FWD. Takes a lot less to lose control with 2WD/RWD than it does FWD and especially AWD/4WD though. Those who push too far are the idiots that you see flipped over on the road or down off the side of the road in bad weather. They refuse to modify their driving at all because of AWD/4WD. You still have to be careful in bad weather even with AWD/4WD but man to say it proviides minimal to no advantage as some here are implying just is nuts.

I also waterfowl hunt every year well into February. That means a lot of icy and snow covered roads and boat ramps. I had to stop going back in the days when it snowed and the roads/ramps got bad because I only had a RWD car and then a 2WD truck. If I was able to get to the ramp in one piece I could not launch the boat. My 4WD and AWD vehicles have allowed me to get there safely and to launch the boat in just about any conditions I feel brave enough to venture out into.

You have to be careful even in 4WD/AWD but it sure as HECK gives you a huge advantage over RWD/2WD/FWD. Anyone who says otherwise has never driven the various WD's in bad weather to see 1st hand the huge difference or they don't know what they are talking about but want to sound like they do( meant as respectful as possible - not being a jerk! ).

Best bad weather ability...

4WD
AWD
FWD
RWD/2WD

 

[d00df00d]

What RWD cars have you driven in the snow? You said once that you don't fit in too many cars. Have any of them been well balanced sports cars, sport GTs, etc.?

 

[labman]

I must admit limited experience with 4WD, but until the snow gets too deep, I would be just as happy in my FWD car. I have owned FWD since 1981 and have extensive bad weather experience with it. I have never suffered from a lack of traction.

 

[d00df00d]

BTW, I agree that AWD is better than RWD in the snow overall, in most cases. No matter which way you slice it, RWD cars still can't climb hills too well in the snow. Just trying to keep things in perspective.

 

[Colt45ws]

I havent had a problem in my Vic with snow tires. I had a little trouble when I went behind a store and found snow high enough I was plowing it AND going up hill, but I got though all right, just have to keep the momentum up.

 

[river_rat]

^^^ Cops seem to do alright in them. Heavy car. Tires are key.
I keep a set of chains with me at all times, too, ever since I tried to get up a polished snow hill in 4WD low to get to the hunting cabin a friend used to have. Couldn't make it and had left the chains at home. What was I thinking?

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
I am begining to wonder if some of the folks in this thread claiming 4WD does not provide superior driving ability in bad weather vs 2WD have ever owned/driven a vehicle with 4WD in bad weather( despite where they live suggesting they may have )? The statements made here by some have me just...

I have lived my entire life in NH and we see nasty winters every year with a ton of snow storms as well as sleet and freezing rain. Not a winter road condition you could find anywhere else not found here. I have driven everything from RWD cars to FWD cars to AWD SUV's to 2WD & 4WD trucks in those conditions. There is NO CONTEST! 4WD and AWD provide vastly superior traction and cornering stability not to mention improved stop and go. It isn't even close vs RWD and 2WD vehicles and even FWD.

While the comments about 4WD and AWD not being 100% a guarantee of stopping, cornering, etc... are actually true they sure do help a LOT! The way some have worded their responses indicates they don't understand just what a big diifference AWD/4WD does make. Probably because they haven't driven one in bad weather to compare to RWD/2WD? Only explanation that makes any sense to me after driving in our bad winters for 20+ years.

You absolutely can push AWD and 4WD too far. Just as you can RWD/2WD and FWD. Takes a lot less to lose control with 2WD/RWD than it does FWD and especially AWD/4WD though. Those who push too far are the idiots that you see flipped over on the road or down off the side of the road in bad weather. They refuse to modify their driving at all because of AWD/4WD. You still have to be careful in bad weather even with AWD/4WD but man to say it proviides minimal to no advantage as some here are implying just is nuts.

I also waterfowl hunt every year well into February. That means a lot of icy and snow covered roads and boat ramps. I had to stop going back in the days when it snowed and the roads/ramps got bad because I only had a RWD car and then a 2WD truck. If I was able to get to the ramp in one piece I could not launch the boat. My 4WD and AWD vehicles have allowed me to get there safely and to launch the boat in just about any conditions I feel brave enough to venture out into.

You have to be careful even in 4WD/AWD but it sure as HECK gives you a huge advantage over RWD/2WD/FWD. Anyone who says otherwise has never driven the various WD's in bad weather to see 1st hand the huge difference or they don't know what they are talking about but want to sound like they do( meant as respectful as possible - not being a jerk! ).

Best bad weather ability...

4WD
AWD
FWD
RWD/2WD


Do you have iceracing in NH? I've watched a few and given equal tires, weight, and weight distribution, at mid corner rwd, fwd, and 4wd cars are all going about the same speed. 4wd obviously wins on corner exits and the straights but going into the corners, and mid corner there's not a big advantage to how many wheels are driven.
At low speeds mechanical awd, 4wd do have unquestionable advantages, at highway speeds I choose my Neon with snow tires over my Tracker even in 4wd with snow tires. Partially because I run 155 width tires on the Neon which give it better loose snow or slush handling than the Tracker. The Tracker doesn't have ABS and in 4wd the braking forces are equalized front to back which tends to make the backend wander under hard braking. The Tracker does stop a bit shorter than the Neon but if you over do it, going sideways in the Tracker is much harder to recover from than simply locking the front brakes in the Neon.
Anyways the biggest factor is still the driver and then the tires for 99% of driving in the winter. If I do something really dumb, tires or which wheels are driven won't save me...

 

[Minou]

Originally Posted By: mstrjon32
Originally Posted By: bepperb
In our manual, I see your point, or on a non ABS car it does serve to lessen the chance of locked front wheels, but non-ABS stick shift cars are a rarity these days.


I'm proud to say that my 4x4 is both stick shift and non-ABS.

My Sonata too.

 

[rpn453]

Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
I am begining to wonder if some of the folks in this thread claiming 4WD does not provide superior driving ability in bad weather vs 2WD have ever owned/driven a vehicle with 4WD in bad weather( despite where they live suggesting they may have )? The statements made here by some have me just...

I have lived my entire life in NH and we see nasty winters every year with a ton of snow storms as well as sleet and freezing rain. Not a winter road condition you could find anywhere else not found here. I have driven everything from RWD cars to FWD cars to AWD SUV's to 2WD & 4WD trucks in those conditions. There is NO CONTEST! 4WD and AWD provide vastly superior traction and cornering stability not to mention improved stop and go. It isn't even close vs RWD and 2WD vehicles and even FWD.


I have owned a 4WD Nissan Pathfinder and I drove a Jeep Wagoneer in high school. I've driven many other AWD and 4WD vehicles as well. I drive on icy or snowy surfaces on every drive for about four months of the year (salt doesn't melt ice at our temperatures, so they don't use a lot). Despite that, I still don't agree that 4WD or AWD improves braking or normal cornering. I drive quite aggressively at times, so pretty much every time I accelerate out of a corner with a 4WD on a snowy day if there's nobody beside me I'll be hanging the tail out and giving it lots of throttle. I enjoy 4WD in winter.

On side streets and parking lots, I learned almost immediately after getting my license at 16 how easily the Wagoneer can be driven sideways at very low speeds in 2WD, how easy it is to lose the back end in 2WD with too much throttle or steering correction, and how it's pretty much impossible to lose control while applying throttle in 4WD as long as I keep the front wheels pointed in the direction I want. If a vehicle that is more forgiving of inappropriate throttle input has more "cornering stability", then I'll agree that AWD has far more cornering stability than RWD and a little more than FWD. I'd never use cruise control with a RWD on a slippery road, but I've never hesitated to use it with a FWD or 4WD.

If I'm driving at the limits and entering a corner, AWD will not allow me to brake any later or enter the corner any faster. The physics is the same up until the point that you swing your back end around and drive sideways while spinning your tires to chew away at the soft surface. The front tires of an AWD can do that "digging" to improve traction while cornering conservatively, but so can the front tires of a FWD. RWD certainly requires a more dramatic maneuver to take advantage of a soft surface!

 

[sciphi]

I remember doing a few 4-wheel drifts through an unplowed, empty parking lot in my mom's Subaru this past winter. It drifted pretty well as long as I kept some throttle on it. When I eased up it stepped back in and followed through the turn nicely. If that had happened on the roads while rounding a corner I would have been very surprised and likely crashed from over-reaction.

My FWD Buick would have under-steered straight in the same situation. I will have to experiment more in some large empty parking lots when I visit my folks this winter.

 

[rpn453]

I'll add that I agree with those who think tires are the most important safety device for winter driving.

I value AWD enough that I probably would have been willing to pay $3000 and take a 10% hit to my fuel economy (typical values, IMO) to have a fully mechanical AWD system on my Mazda3. But there is no AWD or 4WD that I would rather drive in winter on all-seasons than my Mazda3 on studded winter tires. What I'd really like is to have been able to get a limited slip with my car, so I could have 2WD instead of 1WD.