What is "Flat Tappet" re: zddp

[doitmyself]

At my workplace, I have a Kohler generator with a Ford 4cyl. 1.3L engine (cute little thing).

An engine dealer/distributor says "it is a push rod engine with rocker arms meeting the valve stem" and "they are adjustable".

Is this the same as a flat tappet engine?

Should I be concerned about using an SM oil in it due to the low ZDDP? Or is this a non-issue. The original recommendation is for 10W30 SG, SG/CC or SG/CD.

Thanks

 

[Zaedock]

I would say it is a non-issue.

IMO, the ZDDP applies to higher lift valve springs and maybe rebuild break-in. I've run SM oils in my Jeeps and haven't seen an issue yet. I just pulled a Jeep 4.0L apart for a rebuild in my daughter's Cherokee and the cam looked great.

I'm running QS-Torquepower 5W30 in my Trail Jeep and she runs very well. I think an SM oil would be fine for you.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Do not use a passenger car oil. Use an HDEO like rotella t5 or delo. The ZDDP restriction is ILSAC GF4 and light weight energy conserving SM only xxw-20 thru xxw-30. But stick with an HDEO.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Originally Posted By: Zaedock
I would say it is a non-issue.

...

This is a professional application. An Industrial generator. It ABSOLUTELY needs an hdeo to meet its expected service life.

 

[mechtech2]

I also say it's a non issue.

What does 'professional' mean? Does an engine know?

That engine is broken in and has very light loading on the valve train.
Sure, you can't go wrong with the HDEO [unless the grade/viscosity is wrong], but I see no reason to mandate it.

 

[Steve S]

Yes and use a HDEO oil,Delo 400 ,Shell Rotella Delvac 1300 etc . Schaeffers makes a really good HDEO. Use the recommended viscosity.

 

[widman]

Flat tappet refers to sliding action in the valve train rather than rollers, but more specifically, stay with the higher additive oil as suggested by several. 10w30 CI-4, or even CJ-4

 

[GTO52]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Do not use a passenger car oil. Use an HDEO like rotella t5 or delo. The ZDDP restriction is ILSAC GF4 and light weight energy conserving SM only xxw-20 thru xxw-30. But stick with an HDEO.


I am using Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40 SM spec, so in otherwards this oil doesn't have the ZDDP restriction?

 

[hardcore302]

think of your tappets sliding on bare metal as they hit the rockers.

now, picture that they had little wheels on them that roll with each other.. much better.

 

[doitmyself]

Thank you everyone for your input. There is a distinct divergence of opinions here, the same that people argue about in the small engine section.

So, the dealer's description "it is a push rod engine with rocker arms meeting the valve stem" and "they are adjustable."......................

This is indeed a "flat tappet" engine???

By the way, the engine distributor opinion is "any passenger car oil is fine, 10w30 is preferred for my climate.

Does anyone know what the additive levels were for the original SG/CC/CD spec.?

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: doitmyself
At my workplace, I have a Kohler generator with a Ford 4cyl. 1.3L engine (cute little thing).

An engine dealer/distributor says "it is a push rod engine with rocker arms meeting the valve stem" and "they are adjustable".

Is this the same as a flat tappet engine?

Should I be concerned about using an SM oil in it due to the low ZDDP? Or is this a non-issue. The original recommendation is for 10W30 SG, SG/CC or SG/CD.

Thanks


Whether or not there are rocker arms and whether or not they're adjustable doesn't matter- what matters is the contact between the cam lobe and the cam follower. If the follower (be it a lifter as in a "V"-type engine, or a rocker or "finger" as in an overhead cam engine) has a roller that rolls on the cam lobe, then its a roller engine. If the follower SLIDES on the cam lobe, then its a flat tappet engine.

Now to the crux of the matter- for *most* low-RPM engines with flat tappets (which is DEFINED as "sliding contact at the cam lobe") are fine on current SM oils. The problem arises when you get a higher RPM, higher performance engine with much higher valve spring pressures that really generate high pressure at the cam.

On the other hand- your generator likely has to start dead cold and go to full load within seconds, and it may have to run for hours or days. Don't run unnecessary risks, use an HDEO! There's really no down side. HDEOs may be rated SM, but HDEO's can still have plenty of cam protection even with an SM rating. Its actually a different rating (ACEA maybe- I don't know my alphabet soup that well) that mandates much lower zinc/phosphorous content. For example, SM-rated Shell Rotella T6 still has >1200 ppm zinc and phosporous- plenty for your industrial engine. Other HDEOs like Delvac, Delo, Premium Blue, etc. should be just fine also. Another choice would be Mobil 1 TDT.

 

[doitmyself]

Thanks 440Magnum. Your logic soothes my need for affirmation. I have yet to find one dealer/distributor "expert" that knows whether this engine is "sliding contact" vs. roller cams/lifters.

"HDEO! There's really no down side." This ties into my other Current post asking about cold weather performance of 10w30 oils (the recommended vis. for this engine/my conditions:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...nt=2&page=1

MY KEY QUESTION: Do the Rotella products have less flow at 0 to 32F vs. PYB to be significant. ...... Less cold weather performance vs. cam protection is my debate. I haven't had time yet to look at Widman's calculator.

Note: this engine has a circulating coolant heater, but no pan heater.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: doitmyself
I have yet to find one dealer/distributor "expert" that knows whether this engine is "sliding contact" vs. roller cams/lifters.


Sorry I can't help you there... what year engine is it? I googled around and found several Ford 1.3s, ranging from the 1960s through early 2000s (mostly in Europe), but no specific comments on the cam follwer type. I'm betting all but the most recent were flat tappets, but that's just an educated guess.


Originally Posted By: doitmyself

MY KEY QUESTION: Do the Rotella products have less flow at 0 to 32F vs. PYB to be significant. ...... Less cold weather performance vs. cam protection is my debate. I haven't had time yet to look at Widman's calculator.

Note: this engine has a circulating coolant heater, but no pan heater.



My opinion (for what its worth) is that given the conditions you describe, RT 10w30 would be just as good as PYB 10w30 viscosity-wise (better in every other way). 32F really isn't very cold, and even though there's no pan heater the block heater will make sure the oil warms up really quickly.

 

[doitmyself]

Thank you again. I will ask one or two other Ford Power Products distributors this week to see if I can get more answers.

My engine was built in 1999. I was told that this is a very reliable engine out of Spain (maybe built in Spain) and has been around for "many" years. It was updated in 1989 with electronic ignition. Charts in the manual indicate this engine goes back at least to 1984....earlier, who knows.

I'm leaning towards the Rotella T5....just need a bit more convincing. Pre-BITOG affliction, it was much nicer regarding these "issues".

 

[mechtech2]

Yes, it is a flat tappet engine.
But so is my new dual overhead cam engine in my car.

An engine has flat tappets or rollers. [There is also an oddball desmodromic system -very rare. And an even more rare rotating ball valve type.]

It's all about loading. HIgh performance has fast rising ramps on the cams,and strong spring pressures. A better oil or additive is smart.
And for any engine during break in, stout additives are smart.

So just having the words 'flat tappet' associated with an engine is not a deal killer. Not at all. We need all the other information.

 

[widman]

You don't lose anything on cold starts by going with a HDEO. no relation to viscosity. Pick the visc you want.