JASO revises standard effective 2016

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809
Location
NJ, USA
You keep asserting that a lack of ZDDP is the problem and linking these stories. I keep pointing out that the problem isn't a lack of ZDDP, but a lack of anti-wear protection in oils not formulated for the application. I don't see how this can be seen as anything but factual. ZDDP is not the only solution to excessive wear. It may be a good solution, but it comes with its own drawbacks and is therefore being replaced by alternative technologies. If you can come up with a source that shows the tribofilm provided by ZDDP is the only thing capable of preventing wear on these cams, then your assertions will have something to back them up. Until that time though, I am going to go with my own personal experience of experimenting with dozens of alternative anti-wear and extreme pressure additives to replace ZDDP. ZDDP can be replaced. It isn't always cheap to do so in some applications, but it can be done and is done by formulators. And not only can it be done, but it can be done with added benefits and higher performance than the original ZDDP based system.
 
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298
Location
New York
Where are these failures being documented? I see no results doing a search. Think about it - if engine oils with insufficient ZDDP were really the issue, wouldn't there be many more failures?
 
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6,237
Location
Kalifornia Kollective
This comes from new motorcycles coming with CAT's. If they did not have CAT's, there would be no point in lowering the ZDDP levels. The way around this is to do your research and buy oils with over 1,000 PPM. Many oils on Allisons off-road list are well made for wet clutch applications and thoroughly tested. Allison Also look at PQIA in the HDEO lines. Many lubes with over 1,000 PPM ZDDP. Just buy what you think you need based on your research and cruise on ... smile PQIA HDEO's updated 2018
 
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28,129
Location
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted by RedVic
Aircraft engines are not car engines and are not comparable. There are far different guidelines in the aircraft industry. Aircraft engines are also required to be inspected and overhauled at specified intervals.
That doesn't address his comment or concern, though. If Yamaha designs an engines and it fails on the oil that Yamaha recommends be used, whose fault is that? In any case, bringing up Joe Gibbs Driven doesn't help the argument. Their oils aren't approved anywhere, and if I listened to their horror stories, I'd be running a sump full of oil in my F-150 that would cost more than replacing the cam and lifters in the first place.
 
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4,679
Location
South Carolina
Originally Posted by MotoTribologist
You keep asserting that a lack of ZDDP is the problem and linking these stories. I keep pointing out that the problem isn't a lack of ZDDP, but a lack of anti-wear protection in oils not formulated for the application. I don't see how this can be seen as anything but factual. ZDDP is not the only solution to excessive wear. It may be a good solution, but it comes with its own drawbacks and is therefore being replaced by alternative technologies. If you can come up with a source that shows the tribofilm provided by ZDDP is the only thing capable of preventing wear on these cams, then your assertions will have something to back them up. Until that time though, I am going to go with my own personal experience of experimenting with dozens of alternative anti-wear and extreme pressure additives to replace ZDDP. ZDDP can be replaced. It isn't always cheap to do so in some applications, but it can be done and is done by formulators. And not only can it be done, but it can be done with added benefits and higher performance than the original ZDDP based system.
^^^ Agree^^^ Just discussing here but the OP keeps ignoring the fact that Yamaha calls for API oil "SG Type or higher, Jaso MA" (direct quote from the owners manual. Hey, we do whatever makes us happy and why a lot of us are in here, just saying I think the OP is wrong or better said, IF and that is a big IF, Yamaha has engine issues, it was Yamahas poor design and the engine is having issues with the recommended oil that they recommend. I dont agree that Yamaha messed up that badly, but who knows, I see no actual factual information that there is an issue using Yamahas recommended oil types and I doubt very much there is, if so then they royally screwed up and I doubt any oil will save them. Here is the 2018 Venture Owners Manual - click
 
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6,237
Location
Kalifornia Kollective
Almost any oil seems acceptable from 5W-30 to 20W-50, so how can you go wrong? If you are worried, just run Yamalube from their dealers. I don't get this whole discussion ... I get the two valves per cam lobe and that is additive loading on the lifter/lobe interface. But on an OEM valve train it's not terrible high. Motorcycle valves are small and light. It's not like you are trying to control an 2.25" valve at 8,000 RPM (like a big V8 drag motor). So before we get too much further into this hypothetical discussion, someone please list the valve spring pressures closed and over the nose. If the open valve is less than 150 pounds of spring pressure, X 2, that is still less than we routinely run on drag motors (300~400 for flat tappets and 600+ for rollers). Yeah, we don't use run of the mill grocery getter oils in these engines, but there are plenty of oils that will keep them alive, run after run. Motul 300V, a number Redline oils, Even Delo 400 15W-30 SD will do the job. It's your bike, just use logic and take care of it. Run their oil and document the changes. It's their warranty problem ...
 
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