What i hope is a simple question

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Thanks for the help in advance guys
I hope I can communicate my question clearly enough
It’s common knowledge that a dirty air filter causes poor fuel economy.
What I can’t rectify in my head the that if your car meters the fuel for the amount of incoming air and that any restriction in the intake system means and equivalent amount of air you will not have to compress, why the loss in fuel economy? Is it that the car has a hard time compensating? Or not enough flow to mix up the incoming fuel?
And along that line of thinking. Assuming you accelerated at the same rate would it be more efficient to keep your rpm’s as low as reasonable (say you have a manual) and open the throttle more?
If I could I would prefer knowledgeable responses as opposed to anecdotal responses
Again thanks for your time
 
"knowledgeable responses as opposed to anecdotal responses"

Golly, isn't all knowledge derived from life experience and I believe anecdotes are tales taken from life experience.

Someone somewhere likely has a concise answer.

I could write a few sentences but would likely create confusion that could possibly lead to mayhem and mass hysteria.

Don't want that!!!
 
The answer is 47. I mean 14.

Can you re-phrase your question? What is your REAL question?

Anecdotally speaking, put car on dyno, if you had a solid plate instead of a filter your car would not run (duh). Now anecdotally drill a hole in that plate, say 0.100" D. Car still no run......next 0.250"D, still no run....until a size is reached that car just runs, barely - engine output marginal, increasing the hole size may, anecdotally speaking give you a power curve at a given rpm (or over a range)....you get the picture (anecdotally speaking) that maybe it's not a binary thing.

Simplify the question and you'll get an better answer, for free.
cool.gif
 
Before the advent of the Web thingy we, the people, would have to ascend the mountain to the cave high above the clouds to query the bearded sage residing within.

Now, thanks to this tekknowledgy stuff, we can access the Mighty Pablo and attain enlightenment without the exertions of yore.

No wonder so many folks are getting fat.

Some of us need to climb a few more mountains to obtain advice.
 
apparently I’m just going to get flamed but I’ll try again
Pablo, what your taking about is how a restriction in air flow will affect power, it does not directly speak to the efficiency problem. What I’m trying to juggle is how a restriction will affect efficiency given that a car meters the incoming air, so why the losses?
 
Interesting question - let me see if I can rephrase to see if I understand what you are after.

Since the air/fuel mixture is controlled by the ECU, if the amount of air is restricted (due to a dirty air filter), shouldn't the ECU adjust the amount of fuel to compensate for the reduction in air? If so, why does fuel economy get worse with a dirty air filter?

If this is your question, I have a guess, but hope that someone more knowledgeable replies.

Guess 1: Since your engine is now less powerful (due to reduced air and fuel) you are putting your foot deeper into throttle to get the car to preform to the same level.

Guess 2: The amount of air reduced is not significant enough to trigger a reduction in fuel, and the mixture becomes to tad rich.
 
It was common knowledge with carburettored motors as it would choke the motor and make it rich.

Didn't know it was common knowledge with regard to injected motors. Is it in fact true?
 
"And along that line of thinking. Assuming you accelerated at the same rate would it be more efficient to keep your rpm’s as low as reasonable (say you have a manual) and open the throttle more?"

maybe not. pumping losses could negate an gains generated by running the engine slower. bmw did a study and proved that getting a the gas a bit more actually kept the engine running more efficiently that being really light footed. I thing they expect you to understand that they are not talking about wot.
 
The question calls out for an.....

ALGORITHM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We want an ALGORITHM!!!!!!!!

Though Pablo's answer made immense sense to me.
 
thieu-

I know exactly how you feel, I hear people saying that a clean or high performance air filter will improve your mileage, and yet when I think about how a modern fuel injected engine works, I cannot for the life of me figure out why, especially since the very next thing in an intake system after the air filter is a big metal plate that for 99% of the time is intentionally restricting the airflow. (throttle plate) Why would restricting airflow with a dirty filter reduce mileage, but restricting it with a throttle plate not?

Here are the only reasons I can think of that a dirty filter might reduce mileage in a modern engine:

1) Its a Diesel - Diesel engines have no throttle plate and therefore any unnecesary restrictions in the intake system do represent additional pumping losses.

2) The electronic mixture compensation system is not perfect and a clogged filter does result in a richer mixture. - This is possible, and yet mixture control is the primary way of controlling the emmisions in modern cars, so it seems likely that it would be fairly precise over a fairly wide range of filter conditions.

3) More time at wide open throttle - I do not know if this is still true for modern engines, but I do know that '90s vintage engines would go into "Open Loop Mode" whenever the throttle was wide open. In this mode the fuel was delivered by a simple algorithm without using input from the O2 sensor(s) to adjust it. If the filter is restricted, the trottle must be opened further to produce the same power, so in extreme cases this might trigger the open loop mode more often, possibly reducing mileage. I do not know if more modern engines still do this at W.O.T., so even this might not apply.

That's all I can think of, but I often think wrong. Does anybody have any other ideas?
 
They still go into open loop. Even if they stay closed loop which would be possible with a wide-band sensor, they still dump in extra fuel to make more power, and keep the cylinders and cats cool
 
So number 3) above may actually have an effect, if you are spending a significant amount of time at W.O.T., you might be able to improve your mileage with a clean or high performance air filter.
 
Gary-

Why would there be increased throttling losses at anything other than W.O.T.? For any given operating condition, (RPM and HP) a gasoline engine requires a certain amount of restriction in the intake system to keep the fuel/air mixture correct and the power output limited to what the operator requires. In the case of a clean filter, there will be a slight restriction at the air filter, followed immediately by an intentional restriction at the throttle plate. In the case of a dirty filter, there will be more restriction at the filter, but less at the throttle plate (since the operator will press the gas pedal further until he has achieved the level of performance required) resulting in the exact same combined level of restriction. Why would the dirty filter result in increased throttling losses over the clean filter? (Again this is assuming that the filter is not restricted to the point that the operator must go to W.O.T. to acheive the desired performance as discussed earlier)
 
Quote:


Thanks for the help in advance guys
I hope I can communicate my question clearly enough
It’s common knowledge that a dirty air filter causes poor fuel economy.
What I can’t rectify in my head the that if your car meters the fuel for the amount of incoming air and that any restriction in the intake system means and equivalent amount of air you will not have to compress, why the loss in fuel economy? Is it that the car has a hard time compensating? Or not enough flow to mix up the incoming fuel?
And along that line of thinking. Assuming you accelerated at the same rate would it be more efficient to keep your rpm’s as low as reasonable (say you have a manual) and open the throttle more?
If I could I would prefer knowledgeable responses as opposed to anecdotal responses
Again thanks for your time




OK, I see this as two main questions, so let's see: In the old days with carburetors a restricted air filter would cause a progressively lean condition which also caused progressively worse MPG this was because of the mechanical nature of a carb. Basically, there is an orifice that allows fuel through it and into the air stream. The engine creates a low-pressure area as it runs and the air-fuel mixture get pushed into that low pressure area by atmospheric pressure. When the air filter is restricted there is less air flow yet the engine is still creating the same low-pressure area. The fuel gets pushed into this low pressure area the same as before but there is less air to mix with it, hence, a rich condition.

You would think that fuel injection would not have this problem due to the computer compensating and that is basically true. However, other factors came into play at this point, one is that a restricted air filter is causing an increased pumping loss in the engine. Remember, the engine is basically an air pump that creates power by the compression and burning of the air-fuel mixture. The more work it takes the engine to get that mixture into the cylinders, the less power output it will make. To compensate for the lower output the engine will need to run at a higher RPM. We are talking slight amounts under a slight restriction of the air filter. Nothing noticeable by seat-of-the-pants, but there none-the-less. The other factor is that if the air filter is restricted the engine is no longer running at a "perfect" state of tune. The computer will compensate to a great degree as the air filter goes from new to "full". Once the air filter reaches a saturation level beyond its servicable lifetime, the system no longer is running at optimum. The rpm will need to increase to provide the same power as before, the fuel trim will decrease as the air flow decreases and you now have a less than efficient system, hence a reduction in MPG. The engine is fighting for air and will become sluggish. The transmission may not shift properly because the TPS (throttle position sensor) shows you want to go faster and/or need to downshift yet the RPM and MAF/MAP sensors say that the car is not ready and/or capable.

You second question deals more with the optimum RPM to run the vehicle and asks about low RPM being ideal. Basically, to answer your question: it depends on the engine. Every gasoline and diesel automotive engine is designed around a particular RPM band. An example would be a HD diesel engine in an OTR tractor-trailer that is made for mega-torque at low, low RPM vs a race bike designed for high output at (relatively) high RPMs. The camshaft, valve layout, head(s) and the bore and stroke are designed for the intended "duty" of the motor. The high rpm race bike will have a very short stroke, big bore, high lift cams, multiple (and smaller compared to a 2-valve head) valves and straight ports. The diesel will nearly be the opposite on most counts.

Each engine is going to have a sweet spot of BSFC (brake specific fuel consumption) where the RPM of the engine is at its most efficient. For the diesel, it will be LOW, for the race bike it will be HIGH. For the average passenger car it will be low, but a little higher than the typical diesel engine.

So to answer your question, the most efficient rpm of the engine is the BSFC. Let's just say that a particular engine is most efficient at 3,000 RPM. The way to get the most efficiency is to quickly get to 3,000 RPM and stay there. This is a little too simple however because it does not take into account gearing or the coefficient of drag (cd). If the vehicle had a true contstantly-variable transmission (CVT) and was always run at the optimum RPM, the most efficient speed would be the speed at which going slower or faster would increase comsumption. Likely when cd started to show a large increase.

I personally find the best MPG when I accelerate at an "average" pace. Not granny slow or racer fast. With the new electronic transmissions a "middle-of-the-road" amount of acceleration will allow the transmission to work with the engine to give near optimum shift points. On my manual transmission vehicles I usually aim for 2500-3000 shift points if I'm not racing.

I hope this gave you some insight.
 
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