What Do You Think About Long-Term (20+ Years) Ownership Potential Of Modern Cars?

[Saabist]

Given how much more reliable 90's and 2000's cars are than 60's and 70's cars are, and how many more of them were made, it seems really reasonable that I could mimic what he's done, but just with a different era of car.

That's basically what I'm doing. Most 1990s and early 2000s cars are modern enough to have fuel injection (I hate fiddling with carbs), disc brakes (drum brakes are the pits), a reasonable level of safety equipment, decent rustproofing, and relatively simple, well-proven electronics.

I've worked in the technology field for over 40 years; long enough not to trust new cars' out-of-control "because we can" technology - or continuing support for it - as the vehicle ages. All the manufacturer cares about is that it gets through the warranty period.

 

[Silver]

I agree! I think about what I'll be driving when I'm retired on limited income. I think to myself, will I be able to stay in a vehicle that I'm capable of fixing, and can afford to fix? Will they be around then? Will I be able to find a 2005 Silverado?

 

[Tdog02]

Pros and Cons to your question.

The newer vehicles are a marvel of engineering, with proper maintenance you should be able to get 15-20 years out of them while meeting any EPA regs required for your area.

If you have the cash on hand, you could buy a 40 year old resto-mod of a vehicle you like but isn't a collectors item.

 

[Dave Sherman]

Electrical engineer here. My last vehicle was riddled with electrical issues; failing wiring harnesses, odometer display partially failed, random messages about "service stabilitrak", failed power mirror switch, failed door speaker, and failing power window switches. Ultimately, it was the timing chains wearing out that retired it since it was uneconomical to repair by then.

I found it highly ironic that that 2010 GM vehicle had far more electrical issues in just a few years than my 40 year old MG did, even though British cars from back then were notorious for electrical problems. Don't ask me how the unprotected spade lugs, bullet connectors, and troublesome switches on the MG are still working after 43 years, but the supposedly weather-resistant harnesses and switches on a 5 year old car failed or corroded.

I think getting 20 years out of a modern car is somewhat wishful thinking. The overly complex electrical systems that become increasingly difficult to troubleshoot, coupled with new-fangled engine technology (variable cylinder management and variable valve timing come to mind) that may not be thoroughly tested doesn't seem like a winning combination. Then there's the matter of how expensive and time consuming is it to fix it when the bleeding edge technology breaks down. As my last vehicle demonstrated, it might involve major amounts of disassembly that rule out a DIY job to repair a comparatively small problem.

 

[IndyIan]

I think if I can slow the rust down, the Focus will make it to 20 years if I want it to. Then I can sacrifice it as my kids first car....
The Outback is kind of a forever car in terms of practicality, and its a relatively simple car for the era, with separate climate controls from the radio. The CVT kind of a question mark, but I think almost any automatic is now, with few simple versions of them left. MPFI and a 4 cyl in a 6cyl engine bay doesn't hurt for serviceability either.

 

[oggb]

I found it highly ironic that that 2010 GM vehicle had far more electrical issues in just a few years than my 40 year old MG did, even though British cars from back then were notorious for electrical problems. Don't ask me how the unprotected spade lugs, bullet connectors, and troublesome switches on the MG are still working after 43 years, but the supposedly weather-resistant harnesses and switches on a 5 year old car failed or corroded.

What's even funnier is if you Google "Lucas Electrics" (the main supplier to a lot of British automakers) the first result is "Lucas - The Prince of Darkness" and it's an entire website devoted to jokes about how awful Lucas electronics (commonly found in old Jags and MG) are.

The "Replacement Wiring Harness Smoke - Lucas Service Part" always makes me smile.

 

[doublebase]

I think GDI modern cars and all the computers are going to make servicing cars after 20 years a possible pain and more expensive than
a car from the late 90s. Also newer cars have almost no room to access anything easily. You have to remove more things to do some repairs.

What this^^^ guy said.

I really think we are currently kind of in a reset faze in automotive land...a time when the technology and quality haven’t truly been refined and figured out enough. Direct injection? great idea, great benefits, unfortunately it came with its problems that are just now starting to be fixed by manufacturers (oil consumption and the valve coking). Timing chains replacing timing belts - early examples were failed tensioner and chain stretch - looks like they have now corrected that problem. Low tension rings for fuel efficiency? Well, now it’s become “normal” to use a quart or more between oil changes...only to get worse as the engine gets higher mileage on it. Cylinder shut off and other fuel saving measures? The more moving of parts/shutting on and off something does, the more likely it fails (just ask people on the Chevy truck forums). Variable valve timing? I think you’re ok there. Multiple speed transmission exceeding 8 and above? Oh, I think you have something to worry about (just like the poor folks that owned the Nissan CVT transmissions).

I’m not saying all cars are “bad”, I’m saying technology and long term reliability are in question until this stuff really gets refined.

And the latest “technology gadgetry“ is something that does cause people to turn in vehicles a little too often (IMO), but to each their own on that. I have friends that will not keep phones or cars more than two years. Just can’t do it, they demand the latest and greatest. And I shouldn’t even say every two years on the phones, usually it’s whenever a new iPhone is released...which could be every year. Boom they got to have it. Full grown adults just having to have that latest camera or gimmick. It becomes a conversation thing...you see my new camera, look what it can do. Then they can’t get it to work. Haha.

 

[AutoMechanic]

Yep I believe the days of DIY repair have been coming to an end for awhile now. I am a mechanic at a dealership a young mechanic to be exact and I hate the way all the manufacturers are doing stuff. Every car my family owns is older I have a 1973 Volkswagen Super Beetle and a 1989 Mazda B2200 for my two. My dad has a 2001 Jeep Cherokee, 2004 Toyota Camry, 2008 Ford Escape and a 1994 Ford E-150 and my mom has a 2017 Camry. I have had to do some extensive work on my moms Camry and would hate to see it be more advance then it already is. I do less work on my old cars then I do anything that comes into the dealership usually. Yes new cars are safer than ever before but still if it breaks you in repair bills I’d rather drive something old. If you leave a new car sitting for 10 or 15 years now you would probably never get it started like you would an old one and if you did half the stuff probably wouldn’t work on it. In my personal experience I have found old cars to be much more reliable than anything built in lets say the last 10 years for sure.

 

[wtd]

This is why the majority of my vehicles I own are over 20 years old. I think the electronics on these modern vehicles is what will be the death sentence for them. Too many systems are tied into each other and can be very hard to diagnose and fix.

Once the manufacturer quits supplying the electronic part, they are either impossible to find or the quality of the aftermarket part is crap so it still makes the vehicle unreliable.

It's a two edge sword though. Would I trust my 92 Cavalier to take a cross country trip? No, even though I've taken great care of it and pretty much all electronic parts have been replaced at one point or another, the quality of the replacement parts are mostly crap and seem to fail a lot sooner than the originals did and the parts are not always in stock.

For example my 92 Cavalier that I still drive a lot. I put all new ignition components on it(ICM, both coils, plugs and plug wires) back in early 2019. Last week with only 11,000 miles on those components, the car quits. ICM and one coil ends up being bad. I should have gotten way more miles than that out of these components but I guess not all aftermarket parts are that reliable. I had to wait two days to get another ICM since it was not in stock.

Would I trust my 98 K1500 chevy truck that I bought new to go across country? I don't know. I've taken great care of it but being 22 years old, I don't know if I would feel totally comfortable doing so. The only good thing about it is that it's still a popular vehicle with great parts support and fairly easy to work on. I know that new vehicles can fail but I always feel more comfortable taking a newer vehicle on long trips vs an older one.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a car nut and love vehicles and am always looking at the new stuff. But then I see the prices, the complexity of everything and I decide to just keep driving what I have.

 

[DweezilAZ]

I've used cheap aftermarket mounts for my 1995 Escort and they work fine, as in they have held up for years. If it were a problem, I'd take an old pair and do the window weld thing. Throwing away a car because of lack of mounts seems silly. This is a problem that can be solved with some creativity.

I'm finding that the parts that are coming out don't last very long at all. Motor mount had to be replaced on my 63 Valiant. 1000 miles and less than two years later: collapsed and replaced under warranty.
86 Oldmobile: new CV joints. Two years and 3000 miles later, tearing and shot. Replaced under garage warranty.
AC in the Valiant has leaked all it's refrigerant twice. Bad valve in the rebuild. Replaced under garage warranty.
Yes, I can get the parts. But how good has the quality been? I'm discovering that it's not good.
Broken driver's side door lock piece on the Saturn ION. That piece is unavailable as a stand alone unit. The whole arm has to be replaced at 2-300. Plus labor = $600 total. It's a non power mirror, FFS.
I will be taking it to a locksmith. Jury rig it. I don't care. My "skills" will just screw something else up or not fix the problem. As always. Have at Mr. Key Dr.
But: I would rather have this aggravation than feed the debt beast. 73,000 miles in 15 years on the ION. I don't need a new car. Still looks like a late model. Seats have been covered since year two. Just put in a Pioneer stereo with CD player and jacks for mp3 or a thumb drive. Perhaps a rear view camera next.
Participating in the constant replacement of perfectly good older cars is a great waste. Do it if you must for whatever reason. True need or just talking one's way into a new one for the feelz. I won't.

 

[DweezilAZ]

That's basically what I'm doing. Most 1990s and early 2000s cars are modern enough to have fuel injection (I hate fiddling with carbs), disc brakes (drum brakes are the pits), a reasonable level of safety equipment, decent rustproofing, and relatively simple, well-proven electronics.

I've worked in the technology field for over 40 years; long enough not to trust new cars' out-of-control "because we can" technology - or continuing support for it - as the vehicle ages. All the manufacturer cares about is that it gets through the warranty period.

The same Saabist. Well said.

The safety tech in my 05 ION is just enough for me [ I understand the "risks". It won't pass an arbitrary IIHS or .Gov test that they invented after 05. It's no less safe than when I bought it in new in 05 ]. It has air bags, belts, disc brakes, I keep the mechanicals inspected. 73,000 miles.

It also has a level of simplicity not seen in new cars: the ability to remove and replace any polymer body panel especially front, rear fenders [like the Studebaker Lark and Checker Marathon], door skins, etc without having to use a cutter.

AC dials. Easily replaced stereo [new Pioneer a couple of months ago], FI, drive by wire, timing chain [will have to proactively replace the tensioner kit with a new one soon ... a weak spot] no cutting edge federal spy box. I'm set for a good long time.

And I still never hesitated to take my 86 Olds Calais from Tucson to Salt Lake City and back a year or so ago and may do it again in '21.

 

[NH73]

That's basically what I'm doing. Most 1990s and early 2000s cars are modern enough to have fuel injection (I hate fiddling with carbs), disc brakes (drum brakes are the pits), a reasonable level of safety equipment, decent rustproofing, and relatively simple, well-proven electronics.

I've worked in the technology field for over 40 years; long enough not to trust new cars' out-of-control "because we can" technology - or continuing support for it - as the vehicle ages. All the manufacturer cares about is that it gets through the warranty period.

I seen that people in the technology field are some of the most arrogant people out there. Instead of thumbing the noses at outdated 5-15 year old cars, maybe they be open to selling updated replacement Information center for this vehicles. They have to realize that most people can't afford in vehicles.

 

[zzyzzx]

http://mic-law.com/hyundai-dual-clutch-transmission-settlement/

Apparently the Hyundai dual clutch transmission is terrible as well. Another reason to avoid DCT's and CVT's!

 

[aquariuscsm]

The same Saabist. Well said.

The safety tech in my 05 ION is just enough for me [ I understand the "risks". It won't pass an arbitrary IIHS or .Gov test that they invented after 05. It's no less safe than when I bought it in new in 05 ]. It has air bags, belts, disc brakes, I keep the mechanicals inspected. 73,000 miles.

It also has a level of simplicity not seen in new cars: the ability to remove and replace any polymer body panel especially front, rear fenders [like the Studebaker Lark and Checker Marathon], door skins, etc without having to use a cutter.

AC dials. Easily replaced stereo [new Pioneer a couple of months ago], FI, drive by wire, timing chain [will have to proactively replace the tensioner kit with a new one soon ... a weak spot] no cutting edge federal spy box. I'm set for a good long time.

And I still never hesitated to take my 86 Olds Calais from Tucson to Salt Lake City and back a year or so ago and may do it again in '21.

My 77 280Z was fuel injected. I wonder what the earliest fuel injected car was?

 

[02SE]

My 77 280Z was fuel injected. I wonder what the earliest fuel injected car was?

'57 Corvette is the earliest mass-produced car with FI I'm aware of.

 

[Leo99]

Also the vehicles that are sold in very large numbers are the ones that the after market parts makers will be making parts for.

If my goal was to keep my car for 20+ years and I was worried about an expensive part needed for repair, I'd buy a very popular model. Trust in capitalism. Someone will make and sell an aftermarket part if there is enough demand for it.

 

[wytstang2]

The "trick" to keeping older vehicles on the road is 1) finding one that was taken care of (or you are willing to bring one back to life) and 2) buy one that was extremely popular so parts are bountiful in junk yards, ebay, ect. Being a Ford man I can buy and keep any 20+ yr old F150, Mustang, Ranger, Explorer, Crown Vic (Panther platform) on the road for years to come because parts are available or they have strong aftermarket support. They kept the same configuration for long periods of time (Dodge Ram did the same) so I have options on were to buy parts from today and for many more years to come. It also helps living in the south, only time I see road salt is when some drops a margarita.

 

[Saabist]

My 77 280Z was fuel injected. I wonder what the earliest fuel injected car was?

Foreign cars tended to be ahead of the curve in offering fuel injection though there were some fairly early U.S. offerings.

In the U.S., Chevrolet offered a mechanical fuel injection system in 1957 that was fairly successful. Chrysler offered Bendix "Electrojector" electronic fuel injection in 1958, though only a handful were actually sold and I think all wound up having carbs retrofitted due to problems with the system. (Rambler was going to offer Bendix electronic injection in the 1957 Rebel but canceled due to reliability concerns.)

Bendix sold the Electrojector patents to Bosch which further developed it into D-Jetronic electronic fuel injection, notably installed in Volkswagen Type 3 vehicles sold in the U.S. starting in 1968.

 

[jeepman3071]

I think right to repair will also be a huge factor going forward with how long vehicles can be kept on the road. Not only will repairs be more software based, but if the manufacturer locks down the software and a dealer is your only option, many people simply won't be able to afford to get their vehicles fixed.

 

[Msmith68w]

I think right to repair will also be a huge factor going forward with how long vehicles can be kept on the road. Not only will repairs be more software based, but if the manufacturer locks down the software and a dealer is your only option, many people simply won't be able to afford to get their vehicles fixed.

This is a good point. Look at the BS John Deere is doing, this will be the same thing auto companies will do to protect their intellectual property.