What do you get?

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Does a uoa mainly give you info about the condition of the oil and gross indications that can warn you about an impending, immediate problem with the engine, ie coolant in the oil, failed air filter etc?

Are reading like Fe clouded by know knowing what the iron really is and if the current oil is just cleaning up after the last oil change. Unless the reading is through the roof what good is it until you get many reading in a row under know conditions.
 
The value of a UOA has been one of the classic debates on this board. A single UOA will give you a good indication of the oil condition, if you have a coolant leak, fuel dilution, etc. But for determining occuring or impending problems wear wise, with an engine trending over a period of time is the key.

I performed routine oil analysis on a small fleet of 7.3L diesels at my last job and you could see a turbo going bad well before it let go, usually 1-2 months in advance due to the increase in metals. This only happened a couple of times, but it was so pronounced even a newby like me could see it. If you know what "normal" is in a given application, abnormal is easier to define.

I believe this is what makes Terry Dyson such a force in the art of reading an analysis-his wealth of knowledge around a given application and factoring all the parameters together. Recently Terry told a client he could see he had changed brands of gasoline, from a UOA. That pretty amazing, I think! An analysis is only as useful as the person interpreting the data is capable of making it.
 
Good question. Essentially, this is why Terry Dyson is in business. There is usually a lot of information to be gleaned, but drawing meaningful conclusions takes a lot of specific expertise.

Barring a Dyson analysis, you're right that the most meaningful use of a UOA is for rough information (oil type and change interval assessment, detection of serious issues, etc.) and trend analysis.


EDIT: Haha, beaten to the punch...
 
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In other words a uoa is good as long as your expectations are reasonable and stepping it up from lab numbers analysis like the Dyson service turns the data into information.

Friends here at the shop speak highly of Terry, but why does he not show up here anymore?
 
It's the million dollar question isn't it?

IMO, a UOA is only 1 tool. It's a tool that the average consumer can afford and utilize and the results seem to make sense. Lower the wear metals, the better. However, many compare ppm levels without regard to the +/- repeatability range for the test. OEM tests and other specs are not based UOA. If UOA were the holy grail, there's a lot of companies wasting their time and efforts with these tests when a cheap UOA would do the trick don't you think?

In many cases, without knowing the particle size, it's hard to even determine whether the wear is severe or not. I think having low wear metals is a positive thing, but range and type of wear have to be considered also. I'd rather have low wear in a UOA than high, but I know that most the differences we see are not that substantial.

I think this is also why we see some brands chosen as factory fill in some very high end automobiles. And where are the engine failures? I don't hear much about any.

From a GM Engineer:

Quote:
Since several GM engines are factory filled with Mobil 1 .... yes, we do test with it quite a bit. It has no issue with wear. Period.


Do you see Corvette, Porsche engines failing? This doesn't mean Mobil 1 is the best either....

Honda doesn't often request synthetic oils, in fact I don't think they ever have. In their first turbo engine, the only oil that showed no deposits - Mobil 1. The others failed and one barely passed. So who is playing catch up??? Is it marketing??
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Originally Posted By: BarkerMan
In other words a uoa is good as long as your expectations are reasonable and stepping it up from lab numbers analysis like the Dyson service turns the data into information.

Great summary.

Originally Posted By: BarkerMan
Friends here at the shop speak highly of Terry, but why does he not show up here anymore?

I think one reason is that a lot of what would make his input unique is the same knowledge that he must keep to himself in order to prevent others from ripping him off. I'm sure there's more to it than that, but I don't want to speak for him...
 
Originally Posted By: buster
In their first turbo engine, the only oil that showed no deposits - Mobil 1.


Please name the others that did fail and the others that did pass but aren't advertised.
 
Originally Posted By: benjamming
Originally Posted By: buster
In their first turbo engine, the only oil that showed no deposits - Mobil 1.


Please name the others that did fail and the others that did pass but aren't advertised.


Quote:
Leading Synthetic and Blend Engine Oils in the U.S. Marketplace


The fact that only Mobil 1 and now recently PP meet that spec to me says the others available do not. Excluding the boutique brands. I know Castrol doesn't. Called them. Bottom line, only 2 oils currently meet that spec. Everything else is speculation.
 
Originally Posted By: benjamming
Leading what or in what? What is boutique? mail order?


I don't know which is more the reason to use Mobil 1 or PP. For the time being.
 
""Does a uoa mainly give you info about the condition of the oil and gross indications that can warn you about an impending, immediate problem with the engine, ie coolant in the oil, failed air filter etc?""

yes, depends UOA is a snap shot of whats in there thats all IT does NOT tell if its getting worse or not and if normal or not.
Only way to tell is a trend analysis over a set period of same peramiters IE time, miles, route driven etc get a few UOA's done and then you can trend and say things are getting better or worse otherwise all you will get with 1 shot is a guess UNLESS it shows very very high something.

If very high in say copper than you can at least think that there maybe a component going away.
bruce
 
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Normal wear rates change over time, miles, work load etc so a trend is the only way to know.

If you have 20ppm Fe this time and 10ppm next time so what? it varys all the time even time of year samples are taken so do not get to hung up on numbers unles trended.

I hate when someone says this oil gave me 5ppm fe and this oil gave me 7ppm I think I will use the first one.
forget about it and just change ay a sane OCI.
bruce
 
Hi,
bruce381 - I have said much on this issue in years gone by on this Forum, I totally agree with you. I do believe though that UOAs are the only way to satisfactorily establish extended OCIs

As well we have a person in the Porsche community with a repair shop who was effectively rating lubricants by single pass end on end UOAs with an OCI around 1k miles! He got a large following too and then started to recommend a certain lubricant. That's life......................

Regards
Doug
 
""I do believe though that UOAs are the only way to satisfactorily establish extended OCIs""

Agree the key word is UOA's as in plural meaning a few trended is the way to go that will give you the info for a "sane" OCI
bruce
 
Well, I try and achieve a rationalized or intellectualized OCI. They may or may not be sane. Somewhere denial gets in there, iirc.....
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