What are the mechanics behind start up wear?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Mar 19, 2012
Messages
341
Location
Seattle
Is it:

a) cold oil does not protect as well
b) filter goes into bypass so particles damage the engine

My argument against b) would be that so long as some usage of the oil was when it heated up, the filter would have trapped those particles already. Therefore, in occassions that the bypass opens, the oil is mostly filtered. Only if a car saw repeated driving in bypass, would the oil be not pre-filtered from the last usage scenario.
 
I had it explained to me over dinner with an ex Castrol Chemist some years ago.

It's not the act of starting, it's the period between cold thick oil holding everything apart, and everything being in it's hot running state with the clearances stabilised and the AW additives in play...

i.e. it's the first 15-20 mins of operation.

That's the logic for the UMA esters in start-up, to help in that period of operation.
 
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
It`s a marketing myth.


umm...really?

If so, engines are defying some pretty basic laws of physics...
 
Originally Posted By: RedCorvette
Is it:

a) cold oil does not protect as well
b) filter goes into bypass so particles damage the engine

My argument against b) would be that so long as some usage of the oil was when it heated up, the filter would have trapped those particles already. Therefore, in occassions that the bypass opens, the oil is mostly filtered. Only if a car saw repeated driving in bypass, would the oil be not pre-filtered from the last usage scenario.


-regarding a) it's not that the oil is "cold", but it's both too thick and it's not where it needs to be. The oil pump can only displace oil so quickly, so some parts of the engine are undergoing some (very temporary) oil starvation. An oil which is more pumpable at start-up should in theory reduce wear a little bit. But needless to say, oil at room temperature is way thicker than ideal, so that's part of it. The other issue is that the engine's parts themselves aren't up to temperature. I think most engineering studies on the issue point to this as being a bigger issue. Cylinder bores and pistons change shape as they heat up, and while they're obviously tolerant of variance to a degree, they're designed to operate optimally when the engine is at operating temperature.

If you have any doubt about the differences, you can drill down into the EPA fuel economy tests and look at the differences in cold vs. warm engines. There's a lot more friction when an engine is cold (and a concomitant loss of FE). That friction is creating wear.

-as far as the bypassed oil washing over the filter media? Well, obviously Ford feels this is significant, which is why they spec the bypass in the base. I don't know what kinda data they have to support that decision, but I'd guess/hope it's a data-driven decision. That said, unfiltered oil going through the engine is pretty minimal. It should only occur for a couple of seconds at start-up unless you're gunning the engine while cold. So, I just don't see this as being a significant source of wear.
 
Originally Posted By: Rand
and oil has to be hot to activate some of the additives.
Even if this is true, what about the additives that are there to protect against cold start wear?

It is plainly clear that oil flows at pressure through an engine and that this pressure takes a small amount of time to build. During that time metal to metal wear might occur.

But does it really matter? We have plenty of evidence of well maintained cars running three hundred thousand miles without engine work.

While you might be able to reduce the number of cold startups, those cold startups are what you buy the car for and they are unavoidable.

All that said, stick to the awesome synthetics available, watch your ocis and your cold start wear will be slight.
 
Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics could be used to describe the start-up engine wear. Without a UOA, no engine wear occurs.


thumbsup2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
It`s a marketing myth.


umm...really?

If so, engines are defying some pretty basic laws of physics...


You can leave an engine unstarted for years and it will still have an oil coating on every internal part.
 
WRT the oil not being there on start-up, I've never pulled apart a dry engine, no matter how long it's sat in a wrecking yard. All surfaces are covered in a film of oil.
 
In the early 1980's there were lots of articles published in the SAE journal (many from GM as they were switching most cars from 10W40 to 5W30) concerning cold start wear. Supposedly these were the longest, most complete... and most expensive test series that had ever been carried out up until that time.

Their lab testing.... using various radioactive isotopes on the pistons, cyl walls, etc....and oil in the one-time-pass mode were very interesting.

Cylinder wall wear is extremely high for the first 3 miles after a cold start, virtually no oil flies off the rod bearings to lubricate the cylinder walls. Cold thick oil trying to navigate a space of.003 inches (bearing clearance) results in only one drop of oil every several seconds, and it usually flies down, sideways, straight up into the piston.... and rarely onto the cylinder wall. Owners sitting looking happily at the 60 psi on their pressure gauge do not know that pressure is high only because no oil is flowing..... it is all going through the pressure relief valve.

When hot, the MUCH thinner oil is flying out of the rod bearings almost like a shower, and the pistons are hydroplaning on a nice layer of oil.

Interestingly the same test procedures showed no problems with bearing wear.... stating that bearings were well lubricated at startup and did not need additional oil except to carry off heat under high load condtions.....seemingly making a pre-oiler useless.


Remember the Ford money-saving idea (1974 to 1977) to not drill the additional "squirter hole" in the upper corner of the big end of the rod bearing?? This resulted in lots of engine failures even though it has been "thoroughly tested" but on hot engines. Nearly all the engine failures were in the northern states due to poor lubrication until after warmup..... extreme bore wear and scoring.
5 of my friends had their engines rebuilt under Fords secret extended warranty at about 40K miles - 2 Pintos, a Maverick, a Mercury and a Lincoln Continental.

Then, my 1978 Zephyr wagon lost the back lobes on the camshaft, they relied on oil flying from feed holes several lobes further forward..... and they starved during cold starts. This failure (as witnessed by warranty data) was also mostly a northern issue, and design changes were made to the camshaft, drill the feed holes further back.


Interestingly, I rebuilt the Zephyr engine at 100,000 miles.....10W40 the whole time and it was worn out, shot, extreme bore wear, guzzling oil.... and ran in on 5W30 after the rebuild. The rebuilt engine was still like new after an additional 150,000 miles.

Now, using 0W20 oils, both our commuter car and extreme duty tow vehicle have reached 300,000 miles with engines that seem absolutely like new...... so no reason for me to argue with the conclusion that thinner oils are MUCH better for cold starting and operation.
 
Originally Posted By: fsskier


Cylinder wall wear is extremely high for the first 3 miles after a cold start, virtually no oil flies off the rod bearings to lubricate the cylinder walls. Cold thick oil trying to navigate a space of.003 inches (bearing clearance) results in only one drop of oil every several seconds, and it usually flies down, sideways, straight up into the piston.... and rarely onto the cylinder wall. Owners sitting looking happily at the 60 psi on their pressure gauge do not know that pressure is high only because no oil is flowing..... it is all going through the pressure relief valve.



Interestingly the same test procedures showed no problems with bearing wear.... stating that bearings were well lubricated at startup and did not need additional oil except to carry off heat under high load condtions.....seemingly making a pre-oiler useless.




Good post fsskier, I quoted the points that are really interesting to me. Seems those first 3 miles might be a good case supporting the use of something like TCW3 or MMO added to the gas.

Also seems a pre-luber might have a bit less value than I thought. Although I also use my pre-luber to cool the engine after a long drive, or after hauling during hot conditions.
 
Great post fsskier, I now agree that cold starts are the major problem !

If car manufactures were really concerned about longevity, they would have oil squirters aimed at the cylinder walls (as they have oil squirters aimed at the underside of some turbo/supercharged engine's pistons for cooling.
 
Last edited:
Splash lube cylinder walls? I thought we were talking about car engines! What century are we talking about?

I own American made V8's with pressure fed oil all the way to the wrist pins. In no way is the cylinder wall dry for more than a second or two. I have yet to see any modern engine in our shop that did not feed oil all the way up through the rod.

And CorvetteOwner, my car is naturally aspirated and uses oil squirters aimed directly at the piston crowns from underneath. I'm pretty sure it's a bit over lubricated!
 
Without the oil pump creating more flow and pressure, and without splash oiling, things are not lubed as well as when the engine is running .
So cold starts are in the wrong direction for engine health.
Can be insignificant to substantial [over time].
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom