What are the best options for 0W-20 synthetic?

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Bruce T
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Well for short trips wouldn't you want a slightly thicker oil to compensate for fuel dilution. If it's 90% short trip city driven I would assume the oil isn't burning off the inevitable fuel that blows by the rings at start up,until engine is at temp and pistons have expanded.
It's a question so please feel free to inform and not flame me please


No flames are coming from me here. I think your thought processes are quite logical.

Fuel dilution is certainly a factor in short trips, and a thicker oil does help
prevent blow-by. Traditionally, you chose a thinner oil for short trips, since the engine won't get too hot and cool thin oil will stay thick. A thicker oil COULD be thinned down by fuel dilution to just the right level, but a thin oil that shears very little might be even better. It's tricky balancing the oil viscosity, formula,
and interval for minimal wear.


Thanks for the explanation Bruce. Merry Christmas

 

[JeremyInMT]

If I may summarize the answers given to the OP so far:
1. Use thicker 0w20.
2. Use thinner 0w20.

 

[45ACP]

Originally Posted By: JeremyInMT
If I may summarize the answers given to the OP so far:
1. Use thicker 0w20.
2. Use thinner 0w20.


3. Use Mobil 1 0W-20.

 

[Boss302fan]

Mobil 1 0W20 if you change the oil/filter yourself...

If dealer changes it, then make sure they use a 0W20 Toyota/Mobil and not any 5W20 or 30 weight oil... Be specific and have them list the oil brand and weight on the invoice.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Bruce T
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Well for short trips wouldn't you want a slightly thicker oil to compensate for fuel dilution. If it's 90% short trip city driven I would assume the oil isn't burning off the inevitable fuel that blows by the rings at start up,until engine is at temp and pistons have expanded.
It's a question so please feel free to inform and not flame me please

No flames are coming from me here. I think your thought processes are quite logical.
Fuel dilution is certainly a factor in short trips, and a thicker oil does help prevent blow-by. Traditionally, you chose a thinner oil for short trips, since the engine won't get too hot and cool thin oil will stay thick. A thicker oil COULD be thinned down by fuel dilution to just the right level, but a thin oil that shears very little might be even better. It's tricky balancing the oil viscosity, formula, and interval for minimal wear.

Fuel dilution is an engine specific issue and is not a problem with any Toyota hybrid UOA I've seen.
The Toyota 0W-20 with it's 216 VI is a unique oil that's in a class of it's own. The only oil that's remotely similar is the Idemitsu 0W-20 that's supplied to a few other Japanese OEMs.
All other 0W-20's are very much heavier on start-up which is exactly what you don't want particularly in a hybrid.

 

[Bruce T]

That's true, fuel dilution doesn't appear to be a common issue in Prius hybrids (unlike my Civic Hybrid). However, it's worth keeping an eye out for this issue in any hybrid vehicle due to the low operating temps of the engines and programmed fuel dilution: fuel bursts to warm up the cat for emissions, as well as bursts to burn off the NOx generated in lean burn mode. Fortunately, Prius engine temps are benefitted significantly by the use of a thermos to keep the coolant warm for 2-3 days between trips. I'm assuming the Lexus hybrid has this feature, too.

 

[wolfc70]

Originally Posted By: Bruce T
That's true, fuel dilution doesn't appear to be a common issue in Prius hybrids (unlike my Civic Hybrid). However, it's worth keeping an eye out for this issue in any hybrid vehicle due to the low operating temps of the engines and programmed fuel dilution: fuel bursts to warm up the cat for emissions, as well as bursts to burn off the NOx generated in lean burn mode. Fortunately, Prius engine temps are benefitted significantly by the use of a thermos to keep the coolant warm for 2-3 days between trips. I'm assuming the Lexus hybrid has this feature, too.


A bit off topic, but, as stated by Bruce T, the reason the Prius does not have a fuel dilution issue is that it has a coolant storage tank. This can keep the coolant hot for a few days. This helps prevent the extra rich fuel mixtures used for normal cold starts. While this setup will not heat the oil, it at least gets the block and heads warm so you can get more efficient combustion mixtures first thing in the morning. Provided you drive the car on a regular basis.

It is kind of a neat idea. I would think that the Lexus Hybrids have a similar setup.

 

[Brettm1388]

I may be ignorant but I can't see 10k OCI with a short tripper... M1 AFE has my vote though.

 

[RF Overlord]

Originally Posted By: Boss302fan
If dealer changes it, then make sure they use a 0W20 Toyota/Mobil and not any 5W20 or 30 weight oil... Be specific and have them list the oil brand and weight on the invoice.
The local dealer where I buy stuff for my sister's RAV4 sells Toyota-branded 0W-20 for $7 and change...that's certainly competitive with auto parts store prices for the other synthetics. It's also the only 20-weight oil they stock. I don't see why anyone would use anything else in a Toyota unless they could get it significantly cheaper. When sis's warranty runs out, I'm switching her RAV to this oil and 10,000 miles/1 year OCIs.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Bruce T
That's true, fuel dilution doesn't appear to be a common issue in Prius hybrids (unlike my Civic Hybrid). However, it's worth keeping an eye out for this issue in any hybrid vehicle due to the low operating temps of the engines and programmed fuel dilution: fuel bursts to warm up the cat for emissions, as well as bursts to burn off the NOx generated in lean burn mode. Fortunately, Prius engine temps are benefitted significantly by the use of a thermos to keep the coolant warm for 2-3 days between trips. I'm assuming the Lexus hybrid has this feature, too.

That being said, the Honda Brand 0W-20 is considerably heavier than the Toyota oil. I've used both and the Honda oil is a good 10% heavier at hot operating temp's and even more so on start-up due to it's lower VI. The Idemitsu version is still classified an "ultra light" oil but that is more of a reference to it's low start-up viscosity vs other more traditionally formulated 0W-20s and and of course all 5W-20s.

 

[Cujet]

M1 AFE is an excellent oil and it provides very good UOA results. Clearly, it's a well formulated oil, made from excellent fully synthetic base stock. I can't imagine any oil outperforming M1 in your application.

The discussion above, related to actual viscosity at various non operating temps matters very little. Your engine won't spend significant time at those temperatures.

Contrary to popular belief, hybrid cars are powered by their engines! Those engines do plenty of work and need the same protection all other engines need.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Bruce T
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Well for short trips wouldn't you want a slightly thicker oil to compensate for fuel dilution. If it's 90% short trip city driven I would assume the oil isn't burning off the inevitable fuel that blows by the rings at start up,until engine is at temp and pistons have expanded.
It's a question so please feel free to inform and not flame me please

No flames are coming from me here. I think your thought processes are quite logical.
Fuel dilution is certainly a factor in short trips, and a thicker oil does help prevent blow-by. Traditionally, you chose a thinner oil for short trips, since the
engine won't get too hot and cool thin oil will stay thick. A thicker oil COULD be thinned down by fuel dilution to just the right level, but a thin oil that shears very little might be even better. It's tricky balancing the oil viscosity, formula, and interval for minimal wear.

Fuel dilution is an engine specific issue and is not a problem with any Toyota hybrid UOA I've seen.
The Toyota 0W-20 with it's 216 VI is a unique oil that's in a class of it's own. The only oil that's remotely similar is the Idemitsu 0W-20 that's supplied to a
few other Japanese OEMs.
All other 0W-20's are very much heavier on start-up which is exactly what you don't want particularly in a hybrid.



Thank you for the explanation. Very interesting about Toyota motors. Great info to know

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Cujet

The discussion above, related to actual viscosity at various non operating temps matters very little. Your engine won't spend significant time at those temperatures.

How wrong you are.
The Japanese OEMs didn't go to the trouble of developing ultra high VI oils for the fun of it.
Anyone who has an oil temp' gauge is usually surprised at how low the average oil temp's are most of the time even in the summer months. In the winter months the oil may only rarely get up to normal operating temp's. It usually takes a highway run of at least 30 minutes to heat the oil to the 80-95C range.
And since that is not how the OP will be operating his new vehicle then the OEM 0W-20 is clearly the best choice... what a surprise.

 

[JAG]

Different engine than buster's but oil temp reaches 106 C in around 15 minutes of highway driving in winter and summer in my BMW 135i. The 80-95 C oil temp range does not apply to a fair number of engines in use today. I would like for buster to try the oil and report back any findings/data.

 

[GMFan]

I run 0w20 7500mile OCIs per Mazda's requirements. I use Mobil 1 0w20 mainly because it is the EASIEST 0w20 for me to find and if there are other options of 0w20 on the shelf Mobil 1 is almost always the cheapest.

The only 0w20 in 5qt jugs I find at my Walmart is Mobil 1...may have something to do with the fact that my Walmart's oil sections always look like it was ransacked and the shelves get wiped.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: JAG
Different engine than buster's but oil temp reaches 106 C in around 15 minutes of highway driving in winter and summer in my BMW 135i. The 80-95 C oil temp range does not apply to a fair number of engines in use today. I would like for buster to try the oil and report back any findings/data.

A high output twin turbo is not likely the best example compared to the OPs hybrid that's "90% city and short commutes".
The reason I can run a 0W-20 in my Bimmer is because it's mostly short trips and the oil temp's rarely hit even 80C in the winter.
Last sunday I spent all day running short trips doing Christmas shopping; maximum oil temp was 80C but most of the time they hovered in the 60-70C range.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: Cujet


The discussion above, related to actual viscosity at various non operating temps matters very little. Your engine won't spend significant time at those temperatures.


This runs counter to my own experience. It takes between 12 and 20 minutes for my oil to reach full operating temp, which is in the range of 94-98C. I'd say the vehicle spends about 60-80% of its time with the oil not up to full temperatures--and I almost never make a trip in my car of fewer than 3 miles. Given the OP's car and driving habits, his oil isn't going to get nearly as hot as mine.

Originally Posted By: Cujet
Contrary to popular belief, hybrid cars are powered by their engines! Those engines do plenty of work and need the same protection all other engines need.


What belief is that? I've never heard anyone suggest that hybrid engines don't need lubrication? Are you suggesting that an oil with a lighter 40C viscosity somehow offers less protection?

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: JAG
Different engine than buster's but oil temp reaches 106 C in around 15 minutes of highway driving in winter and summer in my BMW 135i. The 80-95 C oil temp range does not apply to a fair number of engines in use today. I would like for buster to try the oil and report back any findings/data.


My car's 3.0 Duratec has never seen oil temps over 98C, and that includes going over repeated mountain passes with vehicle loaded with cargo and 4 bikes on the roof. Your oil temps are atypical of the typical passenger car, by far.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: GMFan
I run 0w20 7500mile OCIs per Mazda's requirements. I use Mobil 1 0w20 mainly because it is the EASIEST 0w20 for me to find and if there are other options of 0w20 on the shelf Mobil 1 is almost always the cheapest.
The only 0w20 in 5qt jugs I find at my Walmart is Mobil 1...may have something to do with the fact that my Walmart's oil sections always look like it was ransacked and the shelves get wiped.
What don't you like about Mazda's Idemitsu made 0W-20?
Then there's any Subaru, Toyota, Lexus, Honda or Acura dealer.
Are none of those convenient?

 

[Coprolite]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Bruce T
That's true, fuel dilution doesn't appear to be a common issue in Prius hybrids (unlike my Civic Hybrid). However, it's worth keeping an eye out for this issue in any hybrid vehicle due to the low operating temps of the engines and programmed fuel dilution: fuel bursts to warm up the cat for emissions, as well as bursts to burn off the NOx generated in lean burn mode. Fortunately, Prius engine temps are benefitted significantly by the use of a thermos to keep the coolant warm for 2-3 days between trips. I'm assuming the Lexus hybrid has this feature, too.

That being said, the Honda Brand 0W-20 is considerably heavier than the Toyota oil. I've used both and the Honda oil is a good 10% heavier at hot operating temp's and even more so on start-up due to it's lower VI. The Idemitsu version is still classified an "ultra light" oil but that is more of a reference to it's low start-up viscosity vs other more traditionally formulated 0W-20s and and of course all 5W-20s.



So, in your preference order:
Toyota>Honda>M1AFE?

What would be your 5w20s that follow?