Specifically in a '84 Mercedes 300D. Both oils are group IV/V synthetic. Quite frankly don't know diddley about CF except it is diesel specific.
What are the advantages of API CI-4 over an SL/CF rated oil?
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Dont consider any oil that is not Diesel Rated. It's not worth the risk. Stick with Diesel Oil.
Uh, CF is diesel rated. Help me understand the improvements of CI-4 over SL/CF.
CF is the 1994 benchmark for oils intended for off-road indirect injected Diesel engines.
(indirect-injection, must mean the engine has a pre-combustion chamber?)
May be used where API CD and CE (obsolete specs) engine oils are recommended.
CF-4 1991+ 4-stroke on-off road truck engines.
CF-2 1991+ 2-stroke (DD)
CG-4 1994+ 4-stroke
CH-4 1999+ 4-stroke
CI-4 2003+ severe duty and EGR, superceeds all previous except CD-2 and CF-2, which are in a classification of their own. (SAE 30 and 40 mono-grades for 2-stroke Diesels)
[ December 18, 2003, 03:15 AM: Message edited by: userfriendly ]
(indirect-injection, must mean the engine has a pre-combustion chamber?)
May be used where API CD and CE (obsolete specs) engine oils are recommended.
CF-4 1991+ 4-stroke on-off road truck engines.
CF-2 1991+ 2-stroke (DD)
CG-4 1994+ 4-stroke
CH-4 1999+ 4-stroke
CI-4 2003+ severe duty and EGR, superceeds all previous except CD-2 and CF-2, which are in a classification of their own. (SAE 30 and 40 mono-grades for 2-stroke Diesels)
[ December 18, 2003, 03:15 AM: Message edited by: userfriendly ]
had a brain fart!
Saw SL and CF and thought - ooops here comes another!
I guess I need to rephrase the question.
Is there any specific information detailing what improvements were made with each new API spec since CF? I hear that CI-4 is better. How is it better? How is CI-4 going to treat by Mercedes better than CF? I hope someone has some info. Thanks
Is there any specific information detailing what improvements were made with each new API spec since CF? I hear that CI-4 is better. How is it better? How is CI-4 going to treat by Mercedes better than CF? I hope someone has some info. Thanks
I'll assume you are comparing Delvac 1 to Mobil 1?
Delvac 1 will do a much better job of suspending and dispersing the soot particles, which will minimize abrasive wear. In addition, Delvac 1 has significantly more TBN reserve, so it will do a better job of neutralizing acids and preventing corrosive wear. Since Delvac 1, 5w-40 flows better than the Mobil 1, 15w-50 all the time, it will improve starting in cold weather as well as fuel efficiency. Delvac 1 will also keep the engine much cleaner, in fact it will clean up deposits left by Mobil 1 in high mileage engines. This isn't opinion, it's based on talking to a number of diesel owners from the 3w.TDIClub.com site ....
I've reviewed oil analysis results from older Mercedes diesels running both Delvac 1 and the Mobil 1, 15w-50, as well as the Mobil 1, 0w-40, which is ACEA B3/B4 rated. Wear rates with Delvac 1 were lower and it held up much better. In fact, iron wear was 50% lower w/ Delvac 1, 5w-40 than with the Mobil 1, 0w-40 in one of the engines I reviewed.
These recommendations would also hold for Amsoil and I'd use their Series 3000, 5w-30 or 15w-40 in ANY diesel engine, even if it's classified as a light duty diesel ....I would NOT use the Amsoil 5w-30 or 10w-30, even though they also carry the ACEA B3/B4 ratings ....
Tooslick
Dixie Synthetics
Delvac 1 will do a much better job of suspending and dispersing the soot particles, which will minimize abrasive wear. In addition, Delvac 1 has significantly more TBN reserve, so it will do a better job of neutralizing acids and preventing corrosive wear. Since Delvac 1, 5w-40 flows better than the Mobil 1, 15w-50 all the time, it will improve starting in cold weather as well as fuel efficiency. Delvac 1 will also keep the engine much cleaner, in fact it will clean up deposits left by Mobil 1 in high mileage engines. This isn't opinion, it's based on talking to a number of diesel owners from the 3w.TDIClub.com site ....
I've reviewed oil analysis results from older Mercedes diesels running both Delvac 1 and the Mobil 1, 15w-50, as well as the Mobil 1, 0w-40, which is ACEA B3/B4 rated. Wear rates with Delvac 1 were lower and it held up much better. In fact, iron wear was 50% lower w/ Delvac 1, 5w-40 than with the Mobil 1, 0w-40 in one of the engines I reviewed.
These recommendations would also hold for Amsoil and I'd use their Series 3000, 5w-30 or 15w-40 in ANY diesel engine, even if it's classified as a light duty diesel ....I would NOT use the Amsoil 5w-30 or 10w-30, even though they also carry the ACEA B3/B4 ratings ....
Tooslick
Dixie Synthetics
Hi,
for generations Daimler Benz set real standards for engine oils
They had an Approved Oils list 50 years ago. Their OM636 and etc. test(s) were benchmarks for all and sundry. I worked on 4 cyl Benz taxis in Scandinavia in the 1960's and those that shortcut the MB specs for lubricants paid for it in diminished engine serviceability, via sludging and various other engine "issues"
The variances between Euro, Japanese and American diesels also called for different oils due to varying fuel quiality, emission needs and variances in engine design
The CI-4 oil is substantially different from previous API ratings and supercedes ( mostly ) those before it. Perhaps it is the start of a new generation of long drain sophisticated lubricants
It had to be developed to handle the requirements of EGR diesels and from my exposure to its abiliies is a great advance from the previous CH-4
The Euro 1,2,3 and 4 emission requirements also called for variances in lubricant specification
at each stage of development
The SL/CF oil would do your task OK but MB have a set Diesel Spec oil for your engine and this will be best. Many forget that with diesels such things as ring land position/deposits, piston crown deposits, combustion temperature/pressures etc. as well as the affect of high(er) sulphur fuels call the shots
I am a long term user of Del 1. Until recently it was also sold as a Del 1 SHC for Euro engines. This was withdrawn in 2001 but it was a Euro blended and approved version. Recently DB(MB) withdrew approval for Del 1 in some engines due to a lack of ACEA approval
Regards
[ December 20, 2003, 12:08 AM: Message edited by: Doug Hillary ]
for generations Daimler Benz set real standards for engine oils
They had an Approved Oils list 50 years ago. Their OM636 and etc. test(s) were benchmarks for all and sundry. I worked on 4 cyl Benz taxis in Scandinavia in the 1960's and those that shortcut the MB specs for lubricants paid for it in diminished engine serviceability, via sludging and various other engine "issues"
The variances between Euro, Japanese and American diesels also called for different oils due to varying fuel quiality, emission needs and variances in engine design
The CI-4 oil is substantially different from previous API ratings and supercedes ( mostly ) those before it. Perhaps it is the start of a new generation of long drain sophisticated lubricants
It had to be developed to handle the requirements of EGR diesels and from my exposure to its abiliies is a great advance from the previous CH-4
The Euro 1,2,3 and 4 emission requirements also called for variances in lubricant specification
at each stage of development
The SL/CF oil would do your task OK but MB have a set Diesel Spec oil for your engine and this will be best. Many forget that with diesels such things as ring land position/deposits, piston crown deposits, combustion temperature/pressures etc. as well as the affect of high(er) sulphur fuels call the shots
I am a long term user of Del 1. Until recently it was also sold as a Del 1 SHC for Euro engines. This was withdrawn in 2001 but it was a Euro blended and approved version. Recently DB(MB) withdrew approval for Del 1 in some engines due to a lack of ACEA approval
Regards
[ December 20, 2003, 12:08 AM: Message edited by: Doug Hillary ]
As a previous owner of a 1970's MBZ diesel, I have one passing remark:
Whatever diesel-rated oil you choose, be it the ones discussed or even a conventional Shell Rotella T 15W40, that dadblasted engine is almost indestructible.
Whatever diesel-rated oil you choose, be it the ones discussed or even a conventional Shell Rotella T 15W40, that dadblasted engine is almost indestructible.
Hi,
Shannow - Del 1 SHC was about as popular as a lead balloon!
A bit like Castrol SLX 0w-30 here I suppose
Mobil changed the makeup of Del 1 and even without approvals it is now being used in all manner of diesels - Euro, USA and Japanese.
I ran Del 1 in a Mazda twin cab 2.5 turbo diesel Ute for about 100k without an issue. No oil use and 15k OCIs too.I wish I had never sold it - a great Ute
Regards
Shannow - Del 1 SHC was about as popular as a lead balloon!
A bit like Castrol SLX 0w-30 here I suppose
Mobil changed the makeup of Del 1 and even without approvals it is now being used in all manner of diesels - Euro, USA and Japanese.
I ran Del 1 in a Mazda twin cab 2.5 turbo diesel Ute for about 100k without an issue. No oil use and 15k OCIs too.I wish I had never sold it - a great Ute
Regards
Shannow, why can't you use D1 in your new toy?
sprintman,
it's all to do with the stupid Nissan warrantly requirements.
Need a diesel engine oil rated no higher than cF-4, or my warranty is dead. Apparently the later oils have lower ash....Nissan want high ash.
So if I go synthetic, I can only use the petrol engine oils, as they are rated no more than CF. (but have bugger all ash).
So I'm stuck with dino at present.
it's all to do with the stupid Nissan warrantly requirements.
Need a diesel engine oil rated no higher than cF-4, or my warranty is dead. Apparently the later oils have lower ash....Nissan want high ash.
So if I go synthetic, I can only use the petrol engine oils, as they are rated no more than CF. (but have bugger all ash).
So I'm stuck with dino at present.
D1 is 1.2% ash I believe , what is it in the dino you use?
1.8%, using DeloCXj at present.
That's the ridiculous part of Nissan's requirement. No oil of better grade than CF-4, or warranty is void. So the oil manufacturers are specifying petrol engine oils, with .8% ash, but meet the CF rating.
That's the ridiculous part of Nissan's requirement. No oil of better grade than CF-4, or warranty is void. So the oil manufacturers are specifying petrol engine oils, with .8% ash, but meet the CF rating.
You have to wonder about a manufacturer that requires outdated API specs.
I think I sort of get what they are trying to achieve, however, the Australian head office are only repeating what they have been told from head office, and have no capacity to argue and reason.
The reason according to the oil gugus down here is that the Japanese turbodiesels are heavily focused on NOx control, and apparently end up with high soot in the oil. The American diesels are focused on soot control, and run higher temps.
Caltex and Mobil are having difficulties, as they know that Delo400 and Delvac1 work well with these engines. However, they won't warrant my engine either (I asked) if I use a more modern oil.
When I asked the voice at Nissan if they thought they were shooting themsleves in the foot by forcing some oil suppliers to specify PCMOs for their diesels, the response was "If it's CF, or CF-4, then it meets our warranty requirements".
I WILL use D1, just not until the warranty is up.
The reason according to the oil gugus down here is that the Japanese turbodiesels are heavily focused on NOx control, and apparently end up with high soot in the oil. The American diesels are focused on soot control, and run higher temps.
Caltex and Mobil are having difficulties, as they know that Delo400 and Delvac1 work well with these engines. However, they won't warrant my engine either (I asked) if I use a more modern oil.
When I asked the voice at Nissan if they thought they were shooting themsleves in the foot by forcing some oil suppliers to specify PCMOs for their diesels, the response was "If it's CF, or CF-4, then it meets our warranty requirements".
I WILL use D1, just not until the warranty is up.
Hi,
Shannow - as I understand it, part is due to the required deposits in the ring land/belt area and top ring positioning.
You are correct in that Del 1 is an excellent soot handler - has been for a long time. How the soot arrives there via EGR or simple combustion probably matters little
The high temp American diesels are simply EGR compliant or actual EGR engines. My non EGR engines run around 90C
Regards
Shannow - as I understand it, part is due to the required deposits in the ring land/belt area and top ring positioning.
You are correct in that Del 1 is an excellent soot handler - has been for a long time. How the soot arrives there via EGR or simple combustion probably matters little
The high temp American diesels are simply EGR compliant or actual EGR engines. My non EGR engines run around 90C
Regards
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