What Americans Keep Ignoring About Finland's Schoo
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OVERKILL
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I think this quote is brilliant:
Quote:
As for accountability of teachers and administrators, Sahlberg shrugs. "There's no word for accountability in Finnish," he later told an audience at the Teachers College of Columbia University. "Accountability is something that is left when responsibility has been subtracted."
Quote:
As for accountability of teachers and administrators, Sahlberg shrugs. "There's no word for accountability in Finnish," he later told an audience at the Teachers College of Columbia University. "Accountability is something that is left when responsibility has been subtracted."
There are other huge factors that cant be discussed here.
An article in the Atlantic about equality? Amazing!
And this has got to be one of the dumbest articles I have ever read. The assumption they are making is that an equality of inputs will necessary cause a equality and improvement in output. That assumption is flat out nuts.
5.4 million people in the entire country? The New York school district is over 1 million people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_school_districts_in_the_United_States_by_enrollment
They also have school choice and merit pay for teachers.
And this has got to be one of the dumbest articles I have ever read. The assumption they are making is that an equality of inputs will necessary cause a equality and improvement in output. That assumption is flat out nuts.
5.4 million people in the entire country? The New York school district is over 1 million people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_school_districts_in_the_United_States_by_enrollment
They also have school choice and merit pay for teachers.
I find it amusing that that Pasi Sahlberg (a non finn,actually of jewish descent) tries to poo poo the fact that is that it is exactly because of the nation being very homogeneous that such policies can be enacted and carried out successfully. Many of the most advanced societies with the best educated and most intelligent peoples are from homogeneous nations.
After all a "nation" is one tribe of people.
After all a "nation" is one tribe of people.
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OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
I find it amusing that that Pasi Sahlberg (a non finn,actually of jewish descent) tries to poo poo the fact that is that it is exactly because of the nation being very homogeneous that such policies can be enacted and carried out successfully. Many of the most advanced societies with the best educated and most intelligent peoples are from homogeneous nations.
After all a "nation" is one tribe of people.
I find it amusing that that Pasi Sahlberg (a non finn,actually of jewish descent) tries to poo poo the fact that is that it is exactly because of the nation being very homogeneous that such policies can be enacted and carried out successfully. Many of the most advanced societies with the best educated and most intelligent peoples are from homogeneous nations.
After all a "nation" is one tribe of people.
Originally Posted By: Trav
There are other huge factors that cant be discussed here.
This factor also exist in Norway but they are not doing good compare to Finland. So your point is moot at least blaming purely on this "can't be discussed" topic.
Originally Posted By: Tempest
The assumption they are making is that an equality of inputs will necessary cause a equality and improvement in output.
So you cannot change the input meaning we are just a bunch of yahoos that cannot be fixed, as in our output is set in stone or just random? Seriously?
Quote:
They also have school choice and merit pay for teachers.
Yes but they already said that it is the same all across, and parents are not "shopping for a school" like we are in the US (via school district shopping), or pay extra for it (private school). It is mentioned and ruled out.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I think this quote is brilliant:
Quote:
As for accountability of teachers and administrators, Sahlberg shrugs. "There's no word for accountability in Finnish," he later told an audience at the Teachers College of Columbia University. "Accountability is something that is left when responsibility has been subtracted."
Yes, teachers are "responsible" for students achievement and performance, and they are highly selective and have master degrees, and principals are "responsible" for the teachers' performance too. (and they are unioned)
Seems to me like 1) they are taking on some parenting that parents fail to do here, 2) they pay for a better group of people as teachers, 3) they do have performance based responsibilities that the US teachers often don't, 4) they have consistent schools across different neighborhoods and population groups, 5) unlike Norway who also has a homogeneous population, they have significantly better performance, 6) Singapore with a very diverse population also have good academic performance.
Growing up with a different school system (more "British" like) with different "band" of schools that you get in on academic performance instead of your address, and principal's job performance based on how many students go to which schools or universities when they graduates, they hold teachers "responsible" and teachers hold students "responsible" for their performances. Many of the students came from families with parents of limited education as well.
What I can say is, the biggest difference I found is schools there also spend more money on students from low income background, and they are not concentrated into different school districts like the US, and therefore they do not have a downward or upward spiral of home price correlated to income level and school performance, that makes good school district expensive and bad school district cheap. I see this as the "segregation" that blocks the social mobility of today's US slum dweller more than years ago or other foreign nations.
There are other huge factors that cant be discussed here.
This factor also exist in Norway but they are not doing good compare to Finland. So your point is moot at least blaming purely on this "can't be discussed" topic.
Originally Posted By: Tempest
The assumption they are making is that an equality of inputs will necessary cause a equality and improvement in output.
So you cannot change the input meaning we are just a bunch of yahoos that cannot be fixed, as in our output is set in stone or just random? Seriously?
Quote:
They also have school choice and merit pay for teachers.
Yes but they already said that it is the same all across, and parents are not "shopping for a school" like we are in the US (via school district shopping), or pay extra for it (private school). It is mentioned and ruled out.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I think this quote is brilliant:
Quote:
As for accountability of teachers and administrators, Sahlberg shrugs. "There's no word for accountability in Finnish," he later told an audience at the Teachers College of Columbia University. "Accountability is something that is left when responsibility has been subtracted."
Yes, teachers are "responsible" for students achievement and performance, and they are highly selective and have master degrees, and principals are "responsible" for the teachers' performance too. (and they are unioned)
Seems to me like 1) they are taking on some parenting that parents fail to do here, 2) they pay for a better group of people as teachers, 3) they do have performance based responsibilities that the US teachers often don't, 4) they have consistent schools across different neighborhoods and population groups, 5) unlike Norway who also has a homogeneous population, they have significantly better performance, 6) Singapore with a very diverse population also have good academic performance.
Growing up with a different school system (more "British" like) with different "band" of schools that you get in on academic performance instead of your address, and principal's job performance based on how many students go to which schools or universities when they graduates, they hold teachers "responsible" and teachers hold students "responsible" for their performances. Many of the students came from families with parents of limited education as well.
What I can say is, the biggest difference I found is schools there also spend more money on students from low income background, and they are not concentrated into different school districts like the US, and therefore they do not have a downward or upward spiral of home price correlated to income level and school performance, that makes good school district expensive and bad school district cheap. I see this as the "segregation" that blocks the social mobility of today's US slum dweller more than years ago or other foreign nations.
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A few things.
I don't think you can point to one nation and say if it works there, it will work in other places.
Second, spending is not a reliable factor in determining school performance. We have some of the highest spending rates in the lowest performing districts. If dollars were a guarantee of education success, the results here would demonstrate that.
Bad school districts are not cheap. In fact, they are typically MORE expensive with lower results.
Finally, I'm not sure I'd point to Singapore. After all, with the threat of caning, I suspect most students would do well
But then again, we've all but taken corporal punishment out of our schools. Has performance gotten better or worse since all the PC has entered the education system?
I don't think you can point to one nation and say if it works there, it will work in other places.
Second, spending is not a reliable factor in determining school performance. We have some of the highest spending rates in the lowest performing districts. If dollars were a guarantee of education success, the results here would demonstrate that.
Bad school districts are not cheap. In fact, they are typically MORE expensive with lower results.
Finally, I'm not sure I'd point to Singapore. After all, with the threat of caning, I suspect most students would do well
But then again, we've all but taken corporal punishment out of our schools. Has performance gotten better or worse since all the PC has entered the education system?
java,
Agree. Bad school is expensive, but are they more expensive because they are concentration of bad students with bad parents? will they also be expensive if you spread them across all schools?
My example of using Singapore is merely to show an example of non homogeneous society. I found too many people automatically blame the US' failure on "we are not all the same in the nation" and in reality is just blaming "the non standard people", when there are examples out there that are culturally and ethnically similar, yet different results (Singapore vs Malaysia, Finland vs Norway).
I do agree with you that many of the problem we have is due to political correctness instead of focusing on what's good for schooling or students. Having parents that just call their lawyers and non-performance based hiring of teachers/principals/other staffs are part of the reasons.
Agree. Bad school is expensive, but are they more expensive because they are concentration of bad students with bad parents? will they also be expensive if you spread them across all schools?
My example of using Singapore is merely to show an example of non homogeneous society. I found too many people automatically blame the US' failure on "we are not all the same in the nation" and in reality is just blaming "the non standard people", when there are examples out there that are culturally and ethnically similar, yet different results (Singapore vs Malaysia, Finland vs Norway).
I do agree with you that many of the problem we have is due to political correctness instead of focusing on what's good for schooling or students. Having parents that just call their lawyers and non-performance based hiring of teachers/principals/other staffs are part of the reasons.
Quote:
So you cannot change the input meaning we are just a bunch of yahoos that cannot be fixed, as in our output is set in stone or just random? Seriously?
You can mass produce cars but humans are not all the same and don't come off of an assembly line. Just because every student supposedly has access to the same education, doesn't mean there will be equality of results.
In fact, teachers are to make their own lesson plans and can choose their own text books. This helps with teacher initiative and ensures that kids will not be receiving the exact same education.
So you cannot change the input meaning we are just a bunch of yahoos that cannot be fixed, as in our output is set in stone or just random? Seriously?
You can mass produce cars but humans are not all the same and don't come off of an assembly line. Just because every student supposedly has access to the same education, doesn't mean there will be equality of results.
In fact, teachers are to make their own lesson plans and can choose their own text books. This helps with teacher initiative and ensures that kids will not be receiving the exact same education.
With Tempest's vauge platitudes he proposes we'd end up looking like Somalia, Medieval Iceland or the Wild West. There is ideology, then there is reality.
I'm amazed he still believes what he believes. Like the cult Mises Institute, which had the U.S. in hyperinflation and in a full blown Great Depression after 2008. Some people just never give up....
I'm amazed he still believes what he believes. Like the cult Mises Institute, which had the U.S. in hyperinflation and in a full blown Great Depression after 2008. Some people just never give up....
Quote:
vauge platitudes
Please point out these "vague platitudes".
vauge platitudes
Please point out these "vague platitudes".
Originally Posted By: buster
I'm amazed he still believes what he believes. Like the cult Mises Institute, which had the U.S. in hyperinflation and in a full blown Great Depression after 2008. Some people just never give up....
The ONLY reason those things haven't happened in full blown proportion is because the FED and international financial types have used slight of hand techniques to delay the inevitable. QE infiinity, ect.
The US is already seeing very high inflation (food, fuel, other staples, ect) main street is still in a significant recession as well. Unemployment is still very high UE6, many that are still un and under employed have dropped off the unemployment rolls and no longer receive benefits.
My guess is that that prediction is happening but in very slow motion.
I'm amazed he still believes what he believes. Like the cult Mises Institute, which had the U.S. in hyperinflation and in a full blown Great Depression after 2008. Some people just never give up....
The ONLY reason those things haven't happened in full blown proportion is because the FED and international financial types have used slight of hand techniques to delay the inevitable. QE infiinity, ect.
The US is already seeing very high inflation (food, fuel, other staples, ect) main street is still in a significant recession as well. Unemployment is still very high UE6, many that are still un and under employed have dropped off the unemployment rolls and no longer receive benefits.
My guess is that that prediction is happening but in very slow motion.
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Originally Posted By: Tempest
In fact, teachers are to make their own lesson plans and can choose their own text books. This helps with teacher initiative and ensures that kids will not be receiving the exact same education.
They are try to achieve the same goal, despite not having standardized test.
But that doesn't means you cut corner on the "more expensive" students with lower performance or from low income school district because they are not a good ROI.
In fact, teachers are to make their own lesson plans and can choose their own text books. This helps with teacher initiative and ensures that kids will not be receiving the exact same education.
They are try to achieve the same goal, despite not having standardized test.
But that doesn't means you cut corner on the "more expensive" students with lower performance or from low income school district because they are not a good ROI.
Originally Posted By: Trav
There are other huge factors that cant be discussed here.
Exactly. This topic simply cannot be fully addressed here due to restrictions.
There are other huge factors that cant be discussed here.
Exactly. This topic simply cannot be fully addressed here due to restrictions.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: Trav
There are other huge factors that cant be discussed here.
Exactly. This topic simply cannot be fully addressed here due to restrictions.
It would be nice if Helen would recommend a different site that would be where we could take such discussions with a link.
Originally Posted By: Trav
There are other huge factors that cant be discussed here.
Exactly. This topic simply cannot be fully addressed here due to restrictions.
It would be nice if Helen would recommend a different site that would be where we could take such discussions with a link.
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: Tempest
In fact, teachers are to make their own lesson plans and can choose their own text books. This helps with teacher initiative and ensures that kids will not be receiving the exact same education.
They are try to achieve the same goal, despite not having standardized test.
But that doesn't means you cut corner on the "more expensive" students with lower performance or from low income school district because they are not a good ROI.
The idea that one can scale up a country with 600,000 students in a relatively homogenous society, 337,000 square Km., where nearly everyone speaks the same language, to a country with 55 million students, many languages, highly socially diverse, and 9.83 million square Km. is simple fallacy.
The school district where I live, which is a county driven system, has half the number of students that the entire country of Finland has.
For the record, I like much of what they are doing, especially the autonomy that teachers have to establish their own curriculum. However, in the idea of "equality", they also don't have AP type courses for kids that are brighter than the others.
The main reason for their success is the cultural valuation they have for education. Compare that to here where "going medieval" is the social norm.
Originally Posted By: Tempest
In fact, teachers are to make their own lesson plans and can choose their own text books. This helps with teacher initiative and ensures that kids will not be receiving the exact same education.
They are try to achieve the same goal, despite not having standardized test.
But that doesn't means you cut corner on the "more expensive" students with lower performance or from low income school district because they are not a good ROI.
The idea that one can scale up a country with 600,000 students in a relatively homogenous society, 337,000 square Km., where nearly everyone speaks the same language, to a country with 55 million students, many languages, highly socially diverse, and 9.83 million square Km. is simple fallacy.
The school district where I live, which is a county driven system, has half the number of students that the entire country of Finland has.
For the record, I like much of what they are doing, especially the autonomy that teachers have to establish their own curriculum. However, in the idea of "equality", they also don't have AP type courses for kids that are brighter than the others.
The main reason for their success is the cultural valuation they have for education. Compare that to here where "going medieval" is the social norm.
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: Trav
There are other huge factors that cant be discussed here.
Exactly. This topic simply cannot be fully addressed here due to restrictions.
It would be nice if Helen would recommend a different site that would be where we could take such discussions with a link.
So its Helen's job to provide you a link on where to go?
Wow...
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: Trav
There are other huge factors that cant be discussed here.
Exactly. This topic simply cannot be fully addressed here due to restrictions.
It would be nice if Helen would recommend a different site that would be where we could take such discussions with a link.
So its Helen's job to provide you a link on where to go?
Wow...
Bill, you do know there are only one or two political forums on the web, after all.
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