Wear Increases After OC?

Yeah, I don't subscribe to it either because I do not believe it simply from the stance that used oil has wear metals and contaminants in it, which by their very nature contribute to additional wear versus that of new, virgin oil which could have some contaminants in it, but not to the degree of used oil. Ergo, (from my perspective) it seems illogical that new oil would cause more wear by stripping a film versus having the used oil with its contaminants in the engine.
It would depend on the how much and at what level of dirty oil was left over, and also the level of tribofilm stripping. Keep in mind that the tribofilm works to help decrease the wear going on in the majority of the moving parts rubbing on each other (ie, the mixed and boundary layer lubrication realms). I highly doubt 8 to 16 oz of left over oil with 10 ppm of Fe in it mixed with 5 qts of new oil is going to cause much added wear over a completely torn down and spotlessly cleaned engine before putting the new oil in it.

Doing a UOA baseline right after the oil change and tracking Fe levels per 1000 miles from that point forward is better than nothing if someone at home wants to try and zero out the left over dirty oil factor. And obviously using a good UOA lab and the same lab. Nobody has proven that won't work, so maybe someone could one way or the other.
 
It would depend on the how much and at what level of dirty oil was left over, and also the level of tribofilm stripping. Keep in mind that the tribofilm works to help decrease the wear going on in the majority of the moving parts rubbing on each other (ie, the mixed and boundary layer lubrication realms). I highly doubt 8 to 16 oz of left over oil with 10 ppm of Fe in it mixed with 5 qts of new oil is going to cause much added wear over a completely torn down and spotlessly cleaned engine before putting the new oil in it.

Doing a UOA baseline right after the oil change and tracking Fe levels per 1000 miles from that point forward is better than nothing if someone at home wants to try and zero out the left over dirty oil factor. And obviously using a good UOA lab and the same lab. Nobody has proven that won't work, so maybe someone could one way or the other.
No, in this instance, I am talking about the wear rates of new oil and the stripping of the tribofilm layer versus the wear rates of the old oil in the engine (not remnants--the full amount).

I have an OC coming up in about 1K miles. Maybe I'll give it a go...
 
BTW - think about this. If the wear rate goes down with extended OCIs, wouldn't you rather think that the wear rate should go up instead because the oil is getting more contaminated with wear particles? So does that mean the existing wear particles already in the oil really don't add as much extra wear as you would think? Seems if the concentration of wear metals was ever increasing as the miles were put on the oil, then so would the wear rate also increase with longer OCIs. I think there are multiple things going on, and some factors are stronger than the others.

Isn't there data showing the wear rates (ppm per 1000 miles) typically decrease with longer OCIs? Does that mean the ever building triobilm AW layer is building up and doing a better and better job as the miles get put on the oil ... even though there is ever increasing level of wear metals in the oil.
 
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This might help; Oct 1, 2019 GMC 2500 XC/RB LML Diesel
Kms on oil 15,400 (9550 mi) Kms on unit 174,000 kms (108k miles)
hrs on oil 224 (69 kms av, 42.6 mph)
PC Duron SAE 40

Spectro analysys
Al 15
Cr 1
Cu 1
Fe 6
Pb 0
silicone 5
all other "wear metals" zero

Infared analysis
Oxid/AN .04
Su/BN zero (depleted)
soot .05
ZDDP -.07 (depleted)

aw additives
sodium 2
Ca 1086
Zn 1445
P 1127

Phyical properties
water & fuel zero
glycol neg
vis @ 40C 124.1
100C 13.7

other;
Bully Dog/all deleted (Greta dared me)
Fuel economy tune, no black smoke
Banks intake/exhaust manifold/ cold air/ K&N, 5 inch exhaust
fuel economy over odi, 10.5L/100Kms (30% improvement over stock and no DEF)

www.btarcm.com
 
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BTW - think about this. If the wear rate goes down with extended OCIs, wouldn't you rather think that the wear rate should go up instead because the oil is getting more contaminated with wear particles? So does that mean the existing wear particles already in the oil really don't add as much extra wear as you would think? Seems if the concentration of wear metals was ever increasing as the miles were put on the oil, then so would the wear rate also increase with longer OCIs. I think there are multiple things going on, and some factors are stronger than the others.

Isn't there data showing the wear rates typically decrease with longer OCIs? Does that mean the ever building triobilm AW layer is building up and doing a better and better job as the miles get put on the oil ... even though there is ever increasing level of wear metals in the oil.
What is being used to measure the wear rates? UOAs?

If so, then Ed Hackett's math comes into play and easily explains why wear rates appear to go down on longer OCIs.
 
What is being used to measure the wear rates? UOAs?
What do you think should be used to try and measure wear rates from the garage?

If so, then Ed Hackett's math comes into play and easily explains why wear rates appear to go down on longer OCIs.
And if you zeroed out the left over oil ppm with a baseline UOA on the new oil change, it would do the same thing. What's you solution as a DIY from the garage besides that?

If you did a zero baseline UOA on the new oil, then from what you're saying it shouldn't show a spike increase in wear if it was all due to left over dirty oil. If it still showed a spike in wear rate with the zero baseline but then went down as the miles piled on, then it's probably more contributed to the tribofilm being partially stripped away by the new oil.
 
What do you think should be used to try and measure wear rates from the garage?


And if you zeroed out the left over oil ppm with a baseline UOA on the new oil change, it would do the same thing. What's you solution as a DIY from the garage besides that?
Point of fact is there is nothing that can be used to consistently and accurately measure wear rates from the garage which is why I started questioning the whole premise of increased wear after an OC.
 
Point of fact is there is nothing that can be used to consistently and accurately measure wear rates from the garage which is why I started questioning the whole premise of increased wear after an OC.
Go back to my last post ... I added info before you posted.

If there is nothing that can consistently measure wear rates from the garbage, then this thread should probably just be closed because nobody will ever prove what's going on. :LOL:
 
BTW - think about this. If the wear rate goes down with extended OCIs, wouldn't you rather think that the wear rate should go up instead because the oil is getting more contaminated with wear particles? So does that mean the existing wear particles already in the oil really don't add as much extra wear as you would think? Seems if the concentration of wear metals was ever increasing as the miles were put on the oil, then so would the wear rate also increase with longer OCIs. I think there are multiple things going on, and some factors are stronger than the others.

Isn't there data showing the wear rates (ppm per 1000 miles) typically decrease with longer OCIs? Does that mean the ever building triobilm AW layer is building up and doing a better and better job as the miles get put on the oil ... even though there is ever increasing level of wear metals in the oil.

Wear rates go down as the OCIs mature. That's true in every single engine series I've studied; does not matter what brand or engine or oil. The rate at which they go down may vary from series to series, but the phenomenon is indisputable.
 
Wear rates go down as the OCIs mature. That's true in every single engine series I've studied; does not matter what brand or engine or oil. The rate at which they go down may vary from series to series, but the phenomenon is indisputable.
That seems to fit with my logic in post #83. If the wear rate decreases, then seems the ever increasing level of wear metals in the oil is not a strong contributor to wear vs the increasing effectivity of the tribofilm AW layer between moving and rubbing parts.
 
Wear rates go down as the OCIs mature. That's true in every single engine series I've studied; does not matter what brand or engine or oil. The rate at which they go down may vary from series to series, but the phenomenon is indisputable.
How are the wear rates measured?
 
I admit that I have not read every single post in this topic, but I have some questions. When the oil is changed, is the filter also changed? and is the new oil filter possibly not capturing as much debris as the old one - assuming that the bypass valve is not active on the old filter? I get the PPM for metals being important to reference to the miles accumulated to be meaningful.

Otherwise I am just a doofus attempting to understand tribology.
 
If there is nothing that can consistently measure wear rates from the garbage, then this thread should probably just be closed because nobody will ever prove what's going on. :LOL:
Not true...this thread is the epitome of questioning the status quo and challenging known beliefs and theories.

We also cannot have it both ways (not saying you are doing this) in that multitudes of people say UOAs cannot be used to measure wear, but when it supports a theory or condition, we say it can...
 
There are four general ways to measure wear which are common:
- electron bombardment on the parts
- component weight
- physical attribute gauges (micrometer; calipers)
- UOAs

The first three methods each have pluses and minuses. The biggest problem is that none of us have the time/money to tear apart an engine/diff/tranny to do these kinds of measurements. And to what end? Are you going to do a teardown and rebuild every 10k miles to see if your oil is really doing it's job??????? And, every time you would "reassemble" your engine, you introduce huge error concerns because you would NEVER get all parts torqued to the exact same value as the previous time ... Any analysis of wear involving teardown is a one-time-only venture. And the R&R is horrible if the teardown is attempted in repeat cycles.

That leave UOAs. UOAs are not perfect; I don't think anyone who is sane would say otherwise. But they are a very quick and inexpensive look at the wear metals, and you take inference from those values to make an overall impression of wear. UOAs most certainly have shown good-to-excellent correlation in measuring wear shifts relative to the other aforementioned methods.

What I don't understand is how anyone can cling tightly to a UOA's info regarding the inputs of wear (vis, FP, elemental additives), but ignore the outputs?

Let's think of something else for a moment ... Think of making a cake.
- The recipe calls for batter mix, eggs, milk, salt, sugar, and things unique to the desired taste such as cocoa, vanilla, etc. These are all "inputs" to the cake. Each ingredient has a specific measure, and at times a specific process such as mixing, beating, cooling, etc.
- Then these ingredients are put into a process; they are baked at some temp, for some duration of time
- then finally, you eat the cake.
How would you ever know if too much salt or too little sugar were used, if you never tasted it????? Not one single ingredient has meaning until someone first "measures" the success or failure by eating it. The "output" (the taste of the finish product) is what matters most. You can learn to tweak the inputs ... more of this, less of that, but in the end, the taste is what matters. This is why I don't understand why BITOGers get so wrapped up in VOAs, or ignore the wear data from a UOA. There are dozens upon dozens of formulations which give good wear results. Think of all the brands and grades of lubes on the market, and most of them do a very admirable job of controlling wear. When people say "This is low on boron" or "This has a really nice load of Ca and Mg", to what end does that prove anything? Want to know how well lube does it's job? Measure the wear. Anything else is just guessing at inputs. Anyone can say "ZDDP" reduces wear. OK - how did we learn that? We to try it and measure the result. Measuring inputs allows one to recreate success, whereas measuring outputs allows one to judge success.

Why would you care about the inputs, if the outputs were desirable. If I gave you a gallon of lube and had it run in your car engine, and the wear dat was excellent, would it matter if it were Mobil 1 AFE, or a 50/50 mix of goat milk and dog urine? If the WEAR is GOOD, then the inputs ONLY MATTER in terms of recreating the lube again. The OUTPUT is what tells you the INPUTS are acceptable; it's NOT the other way around.

Wanna know how well a lube does it's job? You have to measure wear. And the ONLY quick, inexpensive way to get a reasonble (not perfect) sense of what's going on is to take a UOA. Period. VOAs only hint at the potential for success. UOAs tell you what actually happened in use.

Which tells you how well a ball team played the game? Knowing the starting line-up, or looking at the score as the clock goes to zero? Knowing who's starting the game only gives a hint at what MIGHT happen. Seeing the box score tells you how well the team actually played.

Saying a UOA is not useful to track wear is, IMO, very short-sighted and uninformed. It's a proven methodology that is very easy to employ. It is also very easy to misunderstand, and misuse. And most assuredly, it's the only way a gear-head like Joe Bitog can do so from his garage.

Here's what you need to know about a UOA:
- Singular UOAs may be able to discover a developing issue, but they are not assured to do so.
- Singular UOAs are, in no way, shape or form, able to tell you if one lube is "better" than another; this is a fools errand.
- Singular UOAs are able to show you if contamination is present; this should be cause for further investigation if so.
- Multiple UOAs MUST be taken in large quantities (30+ samples) to have any hope of finding averages and standard deviations sufficient to reduce the sigma variation to a plausibly believable range
- Multiple UOAs can be done in either macro or micro conditions, but you cannot interchange those willy-nilly and believe you have a useful output
- Multiple UOAs do take variation into account; that's the entire purpose of the statistical sample analysis in the first place
- Any UOA is going to be your only viable, fiscally attainable means of tracking wear in your garage.
 
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There are four general ways to measure wear which are common:
- electron bombardment on the parts
- component weight
- physical attribute gauges (micrometer; calipers)
- UOAs

The first three methods each have pluses and minuses. The biggest problem is that none of us have the time/money to tear apart an engine/diff/tranny to do these kinds of measurements. And to what end? Are you going to do a teardown and rebuild every 10k miles to see if your oil is really doing it's job??????? And, every time you would "reassemble" your engine, you introduce huge error concerns because you would NEVER get all parts torqued to the exact same value as the previous time ... Any analysis of wear involving teardown is a one-time-only venture. And the R&R is horrible if the teardown is attempted in repeat cycles.

That leave UOAs. UOAs are not perfect; I don't think anyone who is sane would say otherwise. But they are a very quick and inexpensive look at the wear metals, and you take inference from those values to make an overall impression of wear. UOAs most certainly have shown good-to-excellent correlation in measuring wear shifts relative to the other aforementioned methods.

What I don't understand is how anyone can cling tightly to a UOA's info regarding the inputs of wear (vis, FP, elemental additives), but ignore the outputs?

Let's think of something else for a moment ... Think of making a cake.
- The recipe calls for batter mix, eggs, milk, salt, sugar, and things unique to the desired taste such as cocoa, vanilla, etc. These are all "inputs" to the cake. Each ingredient has a specific measure, and at times a specific process such as mixing, beating, cooling, etc.
- Then these ingredients are put into a process; they are baked at some temp, for some duration of time
- then finally, you eat the cake.
How would you ever know if too much salt or too little sugar were used, if you never tasted it????? Not one single ingredient has meaning until someone first "measures" the success or failure by eating it. The "output" (the taste of the finish product) is what matters most. You can learn to tweak the inputs ... more of this, less of that, but in the end, the taste is what matters. This is why I don't understand why BITOGers get so wrapped up in VOAs, or ignore the wear data from a UOA. There are dozens upon dozens of formulations which give good wear results. Think of all the brands and grades of lubes on the market, and most of them do a very admirable job of controlling wear. When people say "This is low on boron" or "This has a really nice load of Ca and Mg", to what end does that prove anything? Want to know how well lube does it's job? Measure the wear. Anything else is just guessing at inputs. Anyone can say "ZDDP" reduces wear. OK - how did we learn that? We to try it and measure the result. Measuring inputs allows one to recreate success, whereas measuring outputs allows one to judge success.

Why would you care about the inputs, if the outputs were desirable. If I gave you a gallon of lube and had it run in your car engine, and the wear dat was excellent, would it matter if it were Mobil 1 AFE, or a 50/50 mix of goat milk and dog urine? If the WEAR is GOOD, then the inputs ONLY MATTER in terms of recreating the lube again. The OUTPUT is what tells you the INPUTS are acceptable; it's NOT the other way around.

Wanna know how well a lube does it's job? You have to measure wear. And the ONLY quick, inexpensive way to get a reasonble (not perfect) sense of what's going on is to take a UOA. Period. VOAs only hint at the potential for success. UOAs tell you what actually happened in use.

Which tells you how well a ball team played the game? Knowing the starting line-up, or looking at the score as the clock goes to zero? Knowing who's starting the game only gives a hint at what MIGHT happen. Seeing the box score tells you how well the team actually played.

Saying a UOA is not useful to track wear is, IMO, very short-sighted and uninformed. It's a proven methodology that is very easy to employ. It is also very easy to misunderstand, and misuse. And most assuredly, it's the only way a gear-head like Joe Bitog can do so from his garage.

Here's what you need to know about a UOA:
- Singular UOAs may be able to discover a developing issue, but they are not assured to do so.
- Singular UOAs are, in no way, shape or form, able to tell you if one lube is "better" than another; this is a fools errand.
- Singular UOAs are able to show you if contamination is present; this should be cause for further investigation if so.
- Multiple UOAs MUST be taken in large quantities (30+ samples) to have any hope of finding averages and standard deviations sufficient to reduce the sigma variation to a plausibly believable range
- Multiple UOAs can be done in either macro or micro conditions, but you cannot interchange those willy-nilly and believe you have a useful output
- Multiple UOAs do take variation into account; that's the entire purpose of the statistical sample analysis in the first place
- Any UOA is going to be your only viable, fiscally attainable means of tracking wear in your garage.
Yes, but in reference to your statement of:

"Wear rates go down as the OCIs mature."

How were the wear rates measured? If these were UOAs, how was a baseline set and repeated?
 
Not true...this thread is the epitome of questioning the status quo and challenging known beliefs and theories.

We also cannot have it both ways (not saying you are doing this) in that multitudes of people say UOAs cannot be used to measure wear, but when it supports a theory or condition, we say it can...
If you can't trust a UOA, then nobody's "belief or theories" about if wear rate increases right after an oil change (or any other wear related subject matter) can only be based on studies not using UAOs ... rabbit hole galore, lol. But if studies never accounted for the possible left over dirty oil factor, then it's not clearly proven one way or the other either. Like dnewton3 mentioned, seems there is plenty of evidence that the longer the UOA goes, the lower the wear rate becomes - to a point of course, becuse oil can degrade from over use and cause wear due to lack of protection. And I think controlled studies also show that the wear rate decreases with longer OCIs phenomena.

So if wear rate goes down as the OCI increases, while at the same time the ppm level of wear particles is also going up, what do you think is causing that to happen?

Doing a baseline UOA shortly after the oil change to zero out the existing wear metals level is as good as it's going to get for anyone to try and prove what's going on one way or the other from their garage. Otherwise, everything else is just going down a rabbit hole.
 
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Not true...this thread is the epitome of questioning the status quo and challenging known beliefs and theories.

We also cannot have it both ways (not saying you are doing this) in that multitudes of people say UOAs cannot be used to measure wear, but when it supports a theory or condition, we say it can...
I did the best I could by doing a very short drain interval and starting fresh. It was late September when I drained the oil and Oct 1st
when I got the results back. Obviously from the uoa, I could have left the oil for another 9,500 miles, but it wasn't worth the risk with
a single grade SAE 40. As it turned out, I put another 3,000 miles (5,000 kms) on the truck in the next 2 weeks, and the weather held.

I got caught 2 years prior trying to test SAE 40 and had to do an unscheduled oil change on my back in a snow storm 1,800 kms from home. I guess that's why they invented mulit-grade engine oils.

The place I take my oil does mostly ISO particle counts for hydraulic systems at pulp mills, mining operations and whatnot.
I was about the only one testing automotive samples. BTA was doing locomotives for VIA Rail and the Rocky Mountain Rail Tour.
A critical water content saved one of my beater EMDs, I drained 20 gallons of water from the sump drain pipe before striking oil.
The uoa cost $26 plus tax and saved a $400,000 repair bill not including a loco lease @ $300/day until repairs could be made.
A cracked head on one cylinder was the sickness and the cure.
A dipstick sniff test uoa, high fuel, an injector line leaking under the valve cover on a different engine. Some uoa's are free.
 
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If you can't trust a UOA, then nobody's "belief or theories" about if wear rate increases right after an UOA can only be based on studies. But if studies never accounted for the possible left over dirty oil factor then it's not clearly proven one way or the other either. Like dnewton3 mentioned, seems there is evidence that the longer the UOA goes, the lower the wear rate becomes (to a point of course). And I think controlled studies also show that phenomena.

So if wear rate goes down as the OCI increases, while at the same time the ppm level of wear particles goes up, what do you think is causing that to happen?

Doing a baseline UOA shortly after the oil change to zero out the existing wear metals level is as good as it's going to get for anyone to try and prove what's going on one way or the other from their garage. Otherwise, everything else is just going down a rabbit hole.
Yes, you right...studies are the only way, but they have to be controlled and on the surface, it does not sound like they were. Else, they are not good testing methodologies to establish repeatable and consistent test results, but their results are used make factual statements.

Even if the UOA testing is exact every time, there are so many variables just in the operating conditions alone, there can never be consistency.

Frankly, if UOAs were used as the basis for establishing wear rates drop as OCIs increase OR wear rates rise after an OC, given the discord around how UOAs can and cannot be used, then why do we accept these statements as fact?
 
Yes, you right...studies are the only way, but they have to be controlled and on the surface, it does not sound like they were. Else, they are not good testing methodologies to establish repeatable and consistent test results, but their results are used make factual statements.

Even if the UOA testing is exact every time, there are so many variables just in the operating conditions alone, there can never be consistency.

Frankly, if UOAs were used as the basis for establishing wear rates drop as OCIs increase OR wear rates rise after an OC, given the discord around how UOAs can and cannot be used, then why do we accept these statements as fact?
Keep in mind there are different methods of doing UOAs to measure wear metals ... some are more accurate than others. How do you know which ones were used in the studies, and how do you know they weren't accurate and not controlled enough?

You could always contact the Southwest Research Institute and ask if they have any info on the subject matter using irradiated parts methodology.
 
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