We finally got some... 0W-8.

[Triple_Se7en]

I just picked up a quart of Pennzoil 0W-16 to use as a gun oil. My wife's car is a 2000 Mercury Grand Marquis with 150,000 miles, and I think I will stick with full synthetic 10w-30

You could have bought one of several fantastic gun oils on the market today, for the same price (or less) that you paid for the 0w16 gun/motor oil

 

[Sumboodie]

I believe our cost was around ~9.50/qt bought as case of 6.

Right, it was just something I noticed on the bottle.

Holy smokes!

And I get some customers squeaking with oil that is $25 a gallon..

 

[RAVL]

People forget that most manufacturers have a 50k or 60k powertrain warranty that can readily be extended via customer buying extended warranty to 80-100k. They aren’t going to specify inadequate oils because it will lead to a debacle in terms of warranty costs and just as importantly, customer retention. Customer retention is absolutely critical in the auto space. (My wife did not get another Honda, a car she really liked, because of the VCM fiasco, even thought it was repaired under warranty. It underminded her confidence in the brand.). That being said, I am pretty sure most of these engines have been redesigned with greater bearing surfaces, careful oil temperature control, and if necessary tighter main bearing clearances so that adequate pressure and protection can be maintained.

All that being said, I am not crazy about it but what choice do we have? Moreover, want to talk about regulation helping drive inflation — 9.50 for a quart of oil!

 

[Mainia]

It’s not outdated. The physics of film thickness and wear are not violated. But there have been changes to engine design and oil formulations that can give “acceptable” wear with low viscosity oils.

The only real downside to a higher grade is a small increase in fuel consumption. Oil passages aren’t too small for higher grade oils, VVT systems won’t implode, engines don’t warm up faster, and engines don’t have electric oil pumps that controlled by the ECM, will shear off the pump drive gear. All those are Internet-amplified fallacies that along with others are common misconceptions about how oil works in the engine.

So could you be saying you think it is to keep some bureaucrats happy at the CAFE standards Cabal and not the drivetrain engineers of most of the worlds auto manufactures?

Rumor has it, some of the CAFE members are rubbing their hand together wanting to mandate a negative numbering system oil in the next coming decade or sooner if they can. As to not get them mixed up, while they mandate the others out of existence, they are using a double numbering system instead of the negative hash. So W05-01 oil.

 

[kschachn]

People forget that most manufacturers have a 50k or 60k powertrain warranty that can readily be extended via customer buying extended warranty to 80-100k. They aren’t going to specify inadequate oils because it will lead to a debacle in terms of warranty costs and just as importantly, customer retention. Customer retention is absolutely critical in the auto space. (My wife did not get another Honda, a car she really liked, because of the VCM fiasco, even thought it was repaired under warranty. It underminded her confidence in the brand.). That being said, I am pretty sure most of these engines have been redesigned with greater bearing surfaces, careful oil temperature control, and if necessary tighter main bearing clearances so that adequate pressure and protection can be maintained.

All that being said, I am not crazy about it but what choice do we have? Moreover, want to talk about regulation helping drive inflation — 9.50 for a quart of oil!

Choice? You can use any oil you want as long as it does not cause damage. Manufacturers recommend oils, not require them.

And they aren't inadequate. The recommended grade gives "acceptable" wear, whatever that means. If you are okay with that (which you may be) then go for it.

 

[RAVL]

Choice? You can use any oil you want as long as it does not cause damage. Manufacturers recommend oils, not require them.

And they aren't inadequate. The recommended grade gives "acceptable" wear, whatever that means. If you are okay with that (which you may be) then go for it.

I was using the word “choice” in the sense that you run out of energy to get worked up about thin oil.

Once again, you are free to use whatever oil you want. Get it in writing and post it here (from Toyota) that using a different viscosity will not cause them to potentially argue with the customer about warranty coverage on a vehicle currently under factory warranty and that specifies this viscosity of oil. Until we get that in writing, the smart choice is to follow the manual when the car is under warranty. Once it is out of warranty, no such concerns exist. Finally,
you seem to think I disagree with you on the substance and I don’t, but sometimes
Life is easier if you don’t involve yourself in unnecessary drama or risk. Have a good day, seriously.

 

[kschachn]

I was using the word “choice” in the sense that you run out of energy to get worked up about thin oil.

Once again, you are free to use whatever oil you want. Get it in writing and post it here (from Toyota) that using a different viscosity will not cause them to potentially argue with the customer about warranty coverage on a vehicle currently under factory warranty and that specifies this viscosity of oil. Until we get that in writing, the smart choice is to follow the manual when the car is under warranty. Once it is out of warranty, no such concerns exist. Finally,
you seem to think I disagree with you on the substance and I don’t, but sometimes
Life is easier if you don’t involve yourself in unnecessary drama or risk. Have a good day, seriously.

I do. Nowhere in the manual does it indicate that oil grade is a condition of the warranty. It does say that if an oil causes damage then that may invalidate the warranty.

Life is easier if you read and understand what the manual actually says or does not say. This avoids unnecessary drama and worry.

 

[Shel_B]

I am far, far older than you. I'm discussing the time period '92-'11. That was the immortal engine time frame, excluding mostly detroit 4 cylinders that were designed by accountants. Honda engines started disintegrating around 2009ish, before DI. 20 is the water threshold, 20 or below is drinkable. You can call the Zinc whatever acronym you want, but ZDDP decreases friction/wear, and removing it increases friction/wear (whoever wants to say oh that's just one component of a package of various levels, etc, please stop. The "low friction ring" people need to step outside the box too. Hint: low friction rings do not cause more friction, score the bores, and carborize themselves). This is kindergarden stuff, but if you need a cite, there is one or more in this thread above. You seem unable to step outside the box and look at the big picture. The big picture is that the *exact same engines* that used to last forever, now are starting to eat oil and cam bearings and lifters and wear the coatings off piston skirts and carbonize the oil rings and score bores. All of these problems are caused by friction. If you don't think friction is reduced by oil, go ahead, continue to use water instead. It's your stuff, do whatever you like. When your engine poops you can replace it with a nice, always connected, electric car. So many touch screens and blinking lights! You'll love it and you'll save the environment too!!!! Everyone will love you when you get rid of that old engine that is destroying the earth and all your friends will love you even more, and the car will even watch you to make sure you're not too sleepy or stoned and the electric car will take care of you and give you hugs. It can even drive you by itself, to the approved facilities to hang out with your friends!

I believe your comment about ZDDP and friction/wear is a bit overly simplistic. It's more complex than what your statement suggests. This thread reminded me of the following linked article from that might be helpful here. It's more fact-based than some of the emotional comments and posts that I've read thus far in this thread. Perhaps it's time for some of the good folks here (on all sides of the issue) to step outside of their boxes for a moment ...

https://www.tribonet.org/news/tribo...e most effective,and protects them from wear.

 

[thunderfog]

I'm gonna hijack this slightly.

Someone school me: when an engine is designed from the ground-up, is it designed with a specific viscosity in mind, or does that question get answered more towards the end of the engineering process?

In stupid terms: "We're designing this engine around a 0w-20 oil." Or, "Now that we see what we have in schematics, materials, initial prototype build etc, it's clear that 0w-20 is going to be sweet spot for this engine."

 

[RAVL]

I'm gonna hijack this slightly.

Someone school me: when an engine is designed from the ground-up, is it designed with a specific viscosity in mind, or does that question get answered more towards the end of the engineering process?

In stupid terms: "We're designing this engine around a 0w-20 oil." Or, "Now that we see what we have in schematics, materials, initial prototype build etc, it's clear that 0w-20 is going to be sweet spot for this engine."

It would have to be considered in the spec of main bearing clearances, how ample the bearing surfaces are, oil temperature in the sump when engine is fully warmed up and expected ambient temperatures, and oil pump volume. There may be some other factors as well some here my add. Hth.

 

[OVERKILL]

I'm gonna hijack this slightly.

Someone school me: when an engine is designed from the ground-up, is it designed with a specific viscosity in mind, or does that question get answered more towards the end of the engineering process?

In stupid terms: "We're designing this engine around a 0w-20 oil." Or, "Now that we see what we have in schematics, materials, initial prototype build etc, it's clear that 0w-20 is going to be sweet spot for this engine."

Oil grade was traditionally selected based on bottom end design (bearing width, clearances) and anticipated ambient conditions. This is why we used to have grade charts in manuals. As oils improved and we got wider spreads, the list was honed down until we arrive at a single recommendation for North America for all anticipated operating conditions. With HTHS limits of 2.6cP and higher, bearing clearances have been pretty consistent over many decades, which is why engines have been able to be back-spec'd to lighter oils (5W-20 for Ford for example) as long as oil temperature is suitably controlled.

So, if we take the Coyote, it was originally spec'd 5W-20. However, in order to ensure sufficient MOFT, engine power was thermally limited. That is, oil temperature was monitored and if it exceeded the acceptable threshold, available power would be reduced until oil temperature returned to within the acceptable limits. This is why Ford introduced the "Track Pack" version of the Mustang where the same engine, with the same clearances, but wearing a big oil cooler, was spec'd 5W-50.

The Coyote spec visc was later updated to 5W-30 is my understanding, which I assume was due to observed wear performance that was not deemed acceptable by Ford in service.

So grade may be a parameter in design (we are going to design this to see adequate wear performance on 0W-20) but until it's actually manufactured and tested, that remains a potential variable, and may still persist as a variable if post-production feedback from general service dictates. And of course anticipated operating profile also plays a role, that's why the 6.4L HEMI spec's 0W-40 while the 5.7L spec's 0W-20.

However, when you step below the 2.6cP HTHS realm into "ultra thin" territory, things change. All of a sudden engine design must cater to viscosity. Wider bearings are needed for example, along with special coatings on surfaces, and again, this is about "acceptable" wear, as you will have more components operating in mixed/boundary regimes the thinner the lube is, which means you are controlling wear, using additives, rather than avoiding it (hydrodynamic).

 

[kschachn]

I'm gonna hijack this slightly.

Someone school me: when an engine is designed from the ground-up, is it designed with a specific viscosity in mind, or does that question get answered more towards the end of the engineering process?

In stupid terms: "We're designing this engine around a 0w-20 oil." Or, "Now that we see what we have in schematics, materials, initial prototype build etc, it's clear that 0w-20 is going to be sweet spot for this engine."

To add on to what @OVERKILL writes, this engine is not designed around a grade in terms of some mechanical requirement for that grade. It can incorporate design changes that will allow it to tolerate certain low HT/HS grades under most circumstances without incurring excessive wear, but that does not mean it requires the use of that grade. It tolerates it. It will also tolerate a higher HT/HS oil with reduced wear. Wear is on a spectrum, not a cliff.

 

[Shel_B]

Oil grade was traditionally selected based on bottom end design (bearing width, clearances) and anticipated ambient conditions. This is why we used to have grade charts in manuals. As oils improved and we got wider spreads, the list was honed down until we arrive at a single recommendation for North America for all anticipated operating conditions. With HTHS limits of 2.6cP and higher, bearing clearances have been pretty consistent over many decades, which is why engines have been able to be back-spec'd to lighter oils (5W-20 for Ford for example) as long as oil temperature is suitably controlled.

So, if we take the Coyote, it was originally spec'd 5W-20. However, in order to ensure sufficient MOFT, engine power was thermally limited. That is, oil temperature was monitored and if it exceeded the acceptable threshold, available power would be reduced until oil temperature returned to within the acceptable limits. This is why Ford introduced the "Track Pack" version of the Mustang where the same engine, with the same clearances, but wearing a big oil cooler, was spec'd 5W-50.

The Coyote spec visc was later updated to 5W-30 is my understanding, which I assume was due to observed wear performance that was not deemed acceptable by Ford in service.

So grade may be a parameter in design (we are going to design this to see adequate wear performance on 0W-20) but until it's actually manufactured and tested, that remains a potential variable, and may still persist as a variable if post-production feedback from general service dictates. And of course anticipated operating profile also plays a role, that's why the 6.4L HEMI spec's 0W-40 while the 5.7L spec's 0W-20.

However, when you step below the 2.6cP HTHS realm into "ultra thin" territory, things change. All of a sudden engine design must cater to viscosity. Wider bearings are needed for example, along with special coatings on surfaces, and again, this is about "acceptable" wear, as you will have more components operating in mixed/boundary regimes the thinner the lube is, which means you are controlling wear, using additives, rather than avoiding it (hydrodynamic).

Nice explanation

 

[thunderfog]

Oil grade was traditionally selected based on bottom end design (bearing width, clearances) and anticipated ambient conditions. This is why we used to have grade charts in manuals. As oils improved and we got wider spreads, the list was honed down until we arrive at a single recommendation for North America for all anticipated operating conditions. With HTHS limits of 2.6cP and higher, bearing clearances have been pretty consistent over many decades, which is why engines have been able to be back-spec'd to lighter oils (5W-20 for Ford for example) as long as oil temperature is suitably controlled.

So, if we take the Coyote, it was originally spec'd 5W-20. However, in order to ensure sufficient MOFT, engine power was thermally limited. That is, oil temperature was monitored and if it exceeded the acceptable threshold, available power would be reduced until oil temperature returned to within the acceptable limits. This is why Ford introduced the "Track Pack" version of the Mustang where the same engine, with the same clearances, but wearing a big oil cooler, was spec'd 5W-50.

The Coyote spec visc was later updated to 5W-30 is my understanding, which I assume was due to observed wear performance that was not deemed acceptable by Ford in service.

So grade may be a parameter in design (we are going to design this to see adequate wear performance on 0W-20) but until it's actually manufactured and tested, that remains a potential variable, and may still persist as a variable if post-production feedback from general service dictates. And of course anticipated operating profile also plays a role, that's why the 6.4L HEMI spec's 0W-40 while the 5.7L spec's 0W-20.

However, when you step below the 2.6cP HTHS realm into "ultra thin" territory, things change. All of a sudden engine design must cater to viscosity. Wider bearings are needed for example, along with special coatings on surfaces, and again, this is about "acceptable" wear, as you will have more components operating in mixed/boundary regimes the thinner the lube is, which means you are controlling wear, using additives, rather than avoiding it (hydrodynamic).

Thanks. Good stuff.

 

[OVERKILL]

To add on to what @OVERKILL writes, this engine is not designed around a grade in terms of some mechanical requirement for that grade. It can incorporate design changes that will allow it to tolerate certain low HT/HS grades under most circumstances without incurring excessive wear, but that does not mean it requires the use of that grade. It tolerates it. It will also tolerate a higher HT/HS oil with reduced wear. Wear is on a spectrum, not a cliff.

I would only add that the spectrum in this case exists when one assumes that the floor is dictated by the spec viscosity indicated by the OEM. If you step below that floor, there can absolutely be a wear cliff that awaits you.

So, for example, if you have an engine that spec's 0W-40 and you dump in 0W-8, catastrophic failure is absolutely a possibility. This may manifest as you dipping below adequate MOFT and a rod journal welds itself to a bearing, possibly causing a piston to exit the side of the block (hi there!).

 

[kschachn]

I would only add that the spectrum in this case exists when one assumes that the floor is dictated by the spec viscosity indicated by the OEM. If you step below that floor, there can absolutely be a wear cliff that awaits you.

So, for example, if you have an engine that spec's 0W-40 and you dump in 0W-8, catastrophic failure is absolutely a possibility. This may manifest as you dipping below adequate MOFT and a rod journal welds itself to a bearing, possibly causing a piston to exit the side of the block (hi there!).

View attachment 250413

Yes absolutely.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Get it in writing and post it here (from Toyota) that using a different viscosity will not cause them to potentially argue with the customer about warranty coverage on a vehicle currently under factory warranty and that specifies this viscosity of oil.

Toyota OMs say a thicker oil protects better in more demanding use conditions - it's been posted in many threads over the years in this forum. So that gives the owner the green light to use a thicker oil than "recommend" if they choose to, and Toyota can't say anything about it. A thicker KV100/HTHS oil isn't going to cause damage. More like give more wear protection. Just make sure to use the appropriate W grade.

 

[ekpolk]

GM engines disintegrating
Toyota engines disintegrating
Ford engines disintegrating
Honda engines disintegrating
Kia engines disintegrating
Chrysler engines disintegrating
AMC (!) engines disintegrating
Hyundai engines disintegrating

Definitely not an oil issue.

That’s right — engines never, ever failed until one day, along came 20 wt oils (or thinner) and then, and ONLY did engines start failing. lol…

 

[ekpolk]

Toyota OMs say a thicker oil protects better in more demanding use conditions - it's been posted in many threads over the years in this forum. So that gives the owner the green light to use a thicker oil than "recommend" if they choose to, and Toyota can't say anything about it. A thicker KV100/HTHS oil isn't going to cause damage. More like give more wear protection. Just make sure to use the appropriate W grade.

That’s not quite what their book says. They allow the use of higher vis oils by noting that it MAY, not that it DOES protect better under demanding conditions. Here’s the exact language, pulled directly from the 2025 Camry Owner’s manual:

The 8 in 0W-8 indicates the viscosity characteristic of the oil when the oil is at high temperature. An oil with a higher viscosity (one with a higher value) may be better suited if the vehicle is operated at high speeds, or under extreme load conditions.

. Of course, they don’t bother to define what constitutes “high speed” or “extreme load conditions”. We can all surmise what the extremes will be, but who knows where the boundaries lie. The same section also allows the use of goopy thick 0w-16 if 0w-8 is unavailable, but further says that it must be replaced by 0w-8 at the next change. To me, that’s the weasel word tell. Own a 0w-8 car? Use a 16 wt if you like in wty; go thicker and you might have problems if you have issues.

 

[ZeeOSix]

That’s not quite what their book says. They allow the use of higher vis oils by noting that it MAY, not that it DOES protect better under demanding conditions. Here’s the exact language, pulled directly from the 2025 Camry Owner’s manual: . Of course, they don’t bother to define what constitutes “high speed” or “extreme load conditions”. We can all surmise what the extremes will be, but who knows where the boundaries lie. The same section also allows the use of goopy thick 0w-16 if 0w-8 is unavailable, but further says that it must be replaced by 0w-8 at the next change. To me, that’s the weasel word tell. Own a 0w-8 car? Use a 16 wt if you like in wty; go thicker and you might have problems if you have issues.

The bottom line is that Toyota engineers understand Tribology and know thicker oils provide more engine protection with more demanding engine use, and they don't even put a viscosity limit on how thick an owner could decide to use based on their OM statement. The reason they say to change it back to 0W-8 at the next oil change is because they used 0W-8 to qualify it for CAFE credits and part of CAFE requirements is they must "recommend" and push the use of that recommended oil viscosity - also the reason it's also printed on the oil filler cap.