I was a few months over on the 60 month powertrain warranty on the Toyota. But because I mentioned the coolant was low on the previous oil change visit the dealer took care of replacing a leaking water pump. This advisor seems like a real nice guy and I'll even wait for him versus this other lady advisor with a huge attitude that I avoid at all costs. I dealt with her once and never again. Plus I've noticed her getting into it with other customers as well.
Warranty worries
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Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I worked in dealerships and saw claims denied, it was not pleasant and very costly for some people. Follow the OM when under warranty, use an oil and filter that meets the mfg specs, be able to produce receipts and maintenance history if the need ever arises.
This should be in the sticky regarding which oil is best for me.
I worked in dealerships and saw claims denied, it was not pleasant and very costly for some people. Follow the OM when under warranty, use an oil and filter that meets the mfg specs, be able to produce receipts and maintenance history if the need ever arises.
This should be in the sticky regarding which oil is best for me.
Worked at dealerships for 20+ years and seems like it was up to customer who you made mad. If you went in with attitude then service writer would do anything they could to deny you but if you went in with nice attitude then claims went smoother. If coolant failure we would see what coolant was in there before warranty, same for oil problems. Toyota was worse there for awhile with denials for not using proper oil or oil filter then cases started to mount and sludge motors then became warranty even high mileage ones. Replace many 200k motors under warranty for so called head gasket failures that slung rods. Heck people were buying blown Toyotas and getting motors replaced for free no questions asked. Gave a new motor to customer we denied because oil was not changed in 20k and motor was locked up. It was an Impala and customer stated oil light never came on and sales person didn't tell you that new cars needed oil change and GM had us replace motor. So yes dealerships to check maintenance records.
When my Mazda was under warranty I found that going to the dealer for service was lot of hassle to me.
At first I was bringing the car to the dealer for service. I had a good thing going as I was bringing in my oil and filters. Everything was great until the car was one year old. That's when they started selling me their "services", as they were the annual thing. Each time I declined they marked it up in their records.
I did one service at about 30k miles for close to $300 after taxes and they did not even change the air filter, I found that out later on.
At that point I never came back. Fortunately I never needed anything engine related so it all turned out well in the end.
But I always wondered if those declined "services", which are nothing but glorified oil changes with inspections, would come back to haunt me if I needed engine warranty work.
At first I was bringing the car to the dealer for service. I had a good thing going as I was bringing in my oil and filters. Everything was great until the car was one year old. That's when they started selling me their "services", as they were the annual thing. Each time I declined they marked it up in their records.
I did one service at about 30k miles for close to $300 after taxes and they did not even change the air filter, I found that out later on.
At that point I never came back. Fortunately I never needed anything engine related so it all turned out well in the end.
But I always wondered if those declined "services", which are nothing but glorified oil changes with inspections, would come back to haunt me if I needed engine warranty work.
Originally Posted By: Doog
I have had 2 Toyota dealers request my service records before they would perform warranty work at 50,000 miles on 2 different vehicles. In both cases I produced my spiral steno notebook with dates, service performed and receipts stapled to each page and walked the service manager through the entire book. Once I did that the never asked again. In fact the comment he made was "I wish all of our customers paid this much attention to their maintenance."
BTW, the work was not oil related BUT they were looking to void the warranty. One repair was a water pump and the other a bad ignition coil.
If you told them to pound sand they would have still fixed your car. And why would to ever go back if you think they were trying to screw you. Its becomes pretty obvious why dealerships and car repair places are so sorry. Ive never had one ask.
I have had 2 Toyota dealers request my service records before they would perform warranty work at 50,000 miles on 2 different vehicles. In both cases I produced my spiral steno notebook with dates, service performed and receipts stapled to each page and walked the service manager through the entire book. Once I did that the never asked again. In fact the comment he made was "I wish all of our customers paid this much attention to their maintenance."
BTW, the work was not oil related BUT they were looking to void the warranty. One repair was a water pump and the other a bad ignition coil.
If you told them to pound sand they would have still fixed your car. And why would to ever go back if you think they were trying to screw you. Its becomes pretty obvious why dealerships and car repair places are so sorry. Ive never had one ask.
I've bought a couple used vehicles from dealer lots and they came with a warranty from a private insurer.
On both vehicles I had to have a dealer or a warranty approved chain type lube shop do my oil changes,and I has to fax in the receipt as well as photocopy and mail them proof of oil change at mileage specified.
I got irritated by the third or fourth time having to send them all that stuff I just quit doing it.
I know the warranty was hidden in the vehicle costs somewhere however the actual cost never showed up on any of my paperwork.
Unless the dealer has some kind of blanket warranty on all units and the cost is deferred over every unit sold
On both vehicles I had to have a dealer or a warranty approved chain type lube shop do my oil changes,and I has to fax in the receipt as well as photocopy and mail them proof of oil change at mileage specified.
I got irritated by the third or fourth time having to send them all that stuff I just quit doing it.
I know the warranty was hidden in the vehicle costs somewhere however the actual cost never showed up on any of my paperwork.
Unless the dealer has some kind of blanket warranty on all units and the cost is deferred over every unit sold
I bought an 12 Focus . It was using a Qt every 1,000. I figured let it break in a few thousand and see what happens. . Did the first oil change at 3,000. Had the dealer do it at 7,500.both time Motorcraft semi 5-20 used.Brought it back at 8,500 a Qt low service lady tell me I should be changing every 4k. I ask her whats the point of the oil change monitor? and why the sticker they put on the windshield says 8,000 mile interval? Long story short switched to Quaker State Synthetic . No more usage.
After reading through the posts, IF the main "failure" was the rear main oil seal . . . I recall reading in another Mopar-oriented website that the current Chrysler ATF came to be a semi-synthetic ATF as a Full Synthetic ATF could cause oil seal degradation in older seals not designed for synthetic fluid retention. Hence, it's a synthetic blend/semi-synthetic rather than a Full Synthetic. Not to forget about the lesser cost of the syn-blend and how it can impact the OEM and the customer's cost.
Therefore, IF M1 allegedly caused the rear main seal issue, then THAT's a Chrysler/supplier problem, it would seem. Of course, if the problems were wide-spread, they'd also have increased warranty claims for that labor operation, too. Sometimes, though, the OEMs might not fully or readily admit to such spikes, by observation, for whatever reason.
As for Chrysler allegedly changing their existing oil compliance spec, that SHOULD have generated a NEW SPEC number . . . as such changes do with other OEMs. NOT a "They upgraded that spec" comment from the dealership operative(s).
Changes to an existing oil spec are NOT usually done "on a whim", but are well-planned a few years prior--LOTS of things to make happen at the OEM and supplier chains BEFORE the change can be made. Hence, the 2-year trial period (during which some prior-compliance oils might not be curently-compliant during that testing period) sounds VERY SUSPECT to me!
BMW side-stepped the PR damage which Mercedes endured a few years back by having "full maintenance warranties", where the BMW spec'd the oil they had to use for each Engine Family (by BMW part number!) on their vehicles. Not a very nice thing for the M-B dealers who used "normal" oil rather than the recommended syn oil for their oil changes!
There are plenty enough Mopar-related websites and forums to gently investigate the sort of failure the Ram owner has allegedly experienced. If there's enough of a pattern, then this falls back on the OEM's shoulders.
At this point in time, I would suspect that any and all rubberized engine seal material would be totally compatible with any brand of synthetic motor oil. UNLESS somebody in Chrysler wanted something less expensive than what Ford or GM was using . . . which ALSO puts it back onto Chrysler's shoulders with a defective/flaky vendor procuremet decision somewhere down in the ranks, somewhere.
I'm not sure what motivated Chrysler to part ways with Mobil and Mobil 1 after so many decades, choosing Penz instead. I might know whom I could contact on that, though. On the other hand, most dealerships usually have in bulk oil what they can get the best pricing from, or get OEM "points" for using the OEM's preferred brand of motor oil.
I concur that there are many flaky sides to this issue. Possibly "third party issues", respectively, too? Now that litigation is on the horizon, we might not know for quite some time.
Additionally . . . being an oil changer at a dealership is NOT exactly what it was even 10 years ago. The good dealers are now much more concerned with getting CSI money from the manufacturers, for example, so customer satisfaction orientations are a bigger deal now. Not all dealers understand that, though . . . especially how much additional money they might accrue IF they met particular performance criteria. The observed problem is that the dealership "industry" seems to tolerate a great deal of mediocrity! By observation after 37 years at a very good GM dealership (parts dept.). The real problem is that a whole bunch of dealership owners, managers, and employees DON'T have a clue as to how much more productive they could be IF they would raise the level of execution of what they do and how they do it. OEM-recommended scripts can help, but it's the mental attitude and orientation that also needs to be programmed! Too many want to "cut their way to prosperity" when some modest upgrades in equipment and facilities would be much better investments and profit-makers. But, that's a whole 'nuther discussion.
Respectfully,
CBODY67
Therefore, IF M1 allegedly caused the rear main seal issue, then THAT's a Chrysler/supplier problem, it would seem. Of course, if the problems were wide-spread, they'd also have increased warranty claims for that labor operation, too. Sometimes, though, the OEMs might not fully or readily admit to such spikes, by observation, for whatever reason.
As for Chrysler allegedly changing their existing oil compliance spec, that SHOULD have generated a NEW SPEC number . . . as such changes do with other OEMs. NOT a "They upgraded that spec" comment from the dealership operative(s).
Changes to an existing oil spec are NOT usually done "on a whim", but are well-planned a few years prior--LOTS of things to make happen at the OEM and supplier chains BEFORE the change can be made. Hence, the 2-year trial period (during which some prior-compliance oils might not be curently-compliant during that testing period) sounds VERY SUSPECT to me!
BMW side-stepped the PR damage which Mercedes endured a few years back by having "full maintenance warranties", where the BMW spec'd the oil they had to use for each Engine Family (by BMW part number!) on their vehicles. Not a very nice thing for the M-B dealers who used "normal" oil rather than the recommended syn oil for their oil changes!
There are plenty enough Mopar-related websites and forums to gently investigate the sort of failure the Ram owner has allegedly experienced. If there's enough of a pattern, then this falls back on the OEM's shoulders.
At this point in time, I would suspect that any and all rubberized engine seal material would be totally compatible with any brand of synthetic motor oil. UNLESS somebody in Chrysler wanted something less expensive than what Ford or GM was using . . . which ALSO puts it back onto Chrysler's shoulders with a defective/flaky vendor procuremet decision somewhere down in the ranks, somewhere.
I'm not sure what motivated Chrysler to part ways with Mobil and Mobil 1 after so many decades, choosing Penz instead. I might know whom I could contact on that, though. On the other hand, most dealerships usually have in bulk oil what they can get the best pricing from, or get OEM "points" for using the OEM's preferred brand of motor oil.
I concur that there are many flaky sides to this issue. Possibly "third party issues", respectively, too? Now that litigation is on the horizon, we might not know for quite some time.
Additionally . . . being an oil changer at a dealership is NOT exactly what it was even 10 years ago. The good dealers are now much more concerned with getting CSI money from the manufacturers, for example, so customer satisfaction orientations are a bigger deal now. Not all dealers understand that, though . . . especially how much additional money they might accrue IF they met particular performance criteria. The observed problem is that the dealership "industry" seems to tolerate a great deal of mediocrity! By observation after 37 years at a very good GM dealership (parts dept.). The real problem is that a whole bunch of dealership owners, managers, and employees DON'T have a clue as to how much more productive they could be IF they would raise the level of execution of what they do and how they do it. OEM-recommended scripts can help, but it's the mental attitude and orientation that also needs to be programmed! Too many want to "cut their way to prosperity" when some modest upgrades in equipment and facilities would be much better investments and profit-makers. But, that's a whole 'nuther discussion.
Respectfully,
CBODY67
As for what fluids are "recommended" by the OEMs for use in their vehicles, the need to recommend the customer to use what the OEM used in the vehicle during EPA emissions/mpg certification/testing. I suspect THIS is what's driving the more recent 0W-20 motor oil recommendations.
When I rebuilt my '77 Camaro's 350 V-8, we started it out on SAE30, then I changed to a 20W-50 brand I used in the prior motor. Going to the 20W-50, I could feel a dulling of throttle response. When I went down to 10W-40, the throttle response came back. I later ended up with 5W-40 Rotella T in it, which feels the same as the 10w40 conventional did, but with better protection.
Some motors seem to be more attuned to particular viscosities of motor oil. I recall hearing of some fleet-user issues with the Ford 4.6L V-8 as they spec'd a multi-weight and most fleets had 30W in their oil tanks (a "fleet" oil). I'm not sure what changes Ford made, but the problem went away a few years later.
To me, it's no big deal to use the OEM-recommended viscosity as it all costs the same, pretty much, these days. Might as well use the recommended stuff than try to "cheat the system", to me. But that's just "me".
Enjoy!
CBODY67
When I rebuilt my '77 Camaro's 350 V-8, we started it out on SAE30, then I changed to a 20W-50 brand I used in the prior motor. Going to the 20W-50, I could feel a dulling of throttle response. When I went down to 10W-40, the throttle response came back. I later ended up with 5W-40 Rotella T in it, which feels the same as the 10w40 conventional did, but with better protection.
Some motors seem to be more attuned to particular viscosities of motor oil. I recall hearing of some fleet-user issues with the Ford 4.6L V-8 as they spec'd a multi-weight and most fleets had 30W in their oil tanks (a "fleet" oil). I'm not sure what changes Ford made, but the problem went away a few years later.
To me, it's no big deal to use the OEM-recommended viscosity as it all costs the same, pretty much, these days. Might as well use the recommended stuff than try to "cheat the system", to me. But that's just "me".
Enjoy!
CBODY67
Originally Posted By: eddy21
I bought an 12 Focus . It was using a Qt every 1,000. I figured let it break in a few thousand and see what happens. . Did the first oil change at 3,000. Had the dealer do it at 7,500.both time Motorcraft semi 5-20 used.Brought it back at 8,500 a Qt low service lady tell me I should be changing every 4k. I ask her whats the point of the oil change monitor? and why the sticker they put on the windshield says 8,000 mile interval? Long story short switched to Quaker State Synthetic . No more usage.
After getting my free oil change, I asked the guy at the Ford place the same thing when I saw the 5000 mile next oil change due sticker on the windshield. "Florida is severe service!" LOL. Did they try and sell you ethanol treatment?
I bought an 12 Focus . It was using a Qt every 1,000. I figured let it break in a few thousand and see what happens. . Did the first oil change at 3,000. Had the dealer do it at 7,500.both time Motorcraft semi 5-20 used.Brought it back at 8,500 a Qt low service lady tell me I should be changing every 4k. I ask her whats the point of the oil change monitor? and why the sticker they put on the windshield says 8,000 mile interval? Long story short switched to Quaker State Synthetic . No more usage.
After getting my free oil change, I asked the guy at the Ford place the same thing when I saw the 5000 mile next oil change due sticker on the windshield. "Florida is severe service!" LOL. Did they try and sell you ethanol treatment?
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: FZ1
I take my oil to the dealer and let the dealer do the Oil changes. Perfect documentation on their dealer records.
I do this as well. They do a good job and it is just $10.
Great deal!. The Honda dealer charges me $21 for the change including a new oem filter,I bring my own oil.
Originally Posted By: FZ1
I take my oil to the dealer and let the dealer do the Oil changes. Perfect documentation on their dealer records.
I do this as well. They do a good job and it is just $10.
Great deal!. The Honda dealer charges me $21 for the change including a new oem filter,I bring my own oil.
We might need to look at some terms here. A dealership cannot really "void" a warranty issued by the OEM or a third party (used vehicles or extended new vehicle coverage), BUT they can deny coverage (for various reasons). Extended warranty company reps can't really "void" anything either, just deny coverages on a case-by-case situation. If the warranty was voided, then NO warranty coverage of other items or related items would remain on the vehicle.
If coverage is denied, by whomever, they need to have a valid, reasonable, and realistic reason for their orientation. On the GM side of things, a service consultant can access the GM warranty records for GM vehicles . . . which can sometimes indicate "flaky" mileages or possibly can indicate some patterns in the type of work that's been warrantied on the vehicle. I do believe that some "reporting" repair shops do report their service records to CARFAX, too, as many dealerships that use CARFAX also do . . . which makes it all "public information" of osrts.
I do know that in the case of GM NorthStar oil consumption issues, in the earlier 2000s, we DID warranty new engines right before the end of the warranty . . . as our shop had done all of the oil changes from when the vehicle was sold new to the then-current owner . . . with documentation in our computer database. If that had been somebody who did their own oil changes with so-so documentation, it could have very well have been different. Be that as it may.
We also charged $10.00 labor for oil changes where the owner brought their own oil/filter . . . gladly and reliably. But there would need to be a higher level of TRUST that they actually used what you brought (especially the oil), but then what would be the advantage (other than cost or use of particular brands)?
Remember, too, that EACH dealer is judged by their deviation from "Zone Average" on their warranty costs/vehicle. If the dealaership has a lower average or is at "zone average", plus having a great working relationship (read "mutual trust") with the OEM's service reps, that particular dealership can usually get things covered OR be more willing to get things covered that another dealership might turn their nose up at . . . which might generate the "Show us your maintenance records . . . " comments.
In many respects, it's now to the dealership's advantage to do warranty work as well as customer pay work. AND get covered what they can get covered! It's called "keeping the shop working" which provides profits to the dealership AND benefits the customer at the same time. To me, any Service Manager, Dealer principle, Service Advisor, etc. that does not recognize that fact AND operating under that orientation needs to get their priorities re-aligned. Especially as many of these people get paid off of what they produce in "work" for the repair shop!
NO need for any power-plays! Just do what you CAN for the customer and get on with things! All of the non-related squabbles over the brand of oil and such just hurt productivity and compensations thereof. We ALL know that the GM OLM can be anywhere from 3000miles to 15K miles, depending upon how the vehicle is driven (from GM's own article on such). Many Euro OEMs are now in the 10K range, with specified motor oils, for which the oil specs were designed around for particular brands of vehicles. Kind of makes our 3K or 5K oil change intervals look a little foolish, sometimes! Especially considering that oils which meet the Euro specs are also used in USA-brands' motors.
In THAT orientation, the dialogues at dealerships about warranty denial due to not following some particular oil change mileage interval (under 10K miles, for example) seem "out of place", UNLESS they can prove otherwise (unusual sludge build-up or an oil filter with "engine color" still on it at 30K miles) to indicate "lack of proper maintenance". In those cases, documentation can be key to the issue at hand.
When a mechanic opens up an engine, they can see how much and where any sludge accumulations might be, just as they can see what type of wear is on the bearings (or absence of wear). From what they've seen, they can usually suspect what the maintenance intervals might have been AND how the vehicle was used. Even if there might be some unusual sludge accumulations, their OEM probably has put some visual images in service publications to use as a guide. Weight of the oil filter can be significant, too.
As for letting somebody else do my oil changes, I would look for the brand of oil I liked and seek out those establishments, then further looking for those I trusted to do the work and do it well. In this day and time, NO tolerance of sloppy work or similar! BUT if this establishment only does oil changes and such, then when you need other work, you'll be looking again. Therefore, it might be better to find a dealership you like and feel comfortable doing business with (even particular service advisors, as mentioned, and patronizing them for everything you need done. But each has their own orientations on these things.
Just some thoughts,
CBODY67
If coverage is denied, by whomever, they need to have a valid, reasonable, and realistic reason for their orientation. On the GM side of things, a service consultant can access the GM warranty records for GM vehicles . . . which can sometimes indicate "flaky" mileages or possibly can indicate some patterns in the type of work that's been warrantied on the vehicle. I do believe that some "reporting" repair shops do report their service records to CARFAX, too, as many dealerships that use CARFAX also do . . . which makes it all "public information" of osrts.
I do know that in the case of GM NorthStar oil consumption issues, in the earlier 2000s, we DID warranty new engines right before the end of the warranty . . . as our shop had done all of the oil changes from when the vehicle was sold new to the then-current owner . . . with documentation in our computer database. If that had been somebody who did their own oil changes with so-so documentation, it could have very well have been different. Be that as it may.
We also charged $10.00 labor for oil changes where the owner brought their own oil/filter . . . gladly and reliably. But there would need to be a higher level of TRUST that they actually used what you brought (especially the oil), but then what would be the advantage (other than cost or use of particular brands)?
Remember, too, that EACH dealer is judged by their deviation from "Zone Average" on their warranty costs/vehicle. If the dealaership has a lower average or is at "zone average", plus having a great working relationship (read "mutual trust") with the OEM's service reps, that particular dealership can usually get things covered OR be more willing to get things covered that another dealership might turn their nose up at . . . which might generate the "Show us your maintenance records . . . " comments.
In many respects, it's now to the dealership's advantage to do warranty work as well as customer pay work. AND get covered what they can get covered! It's called "keeping the shop working" which provides profits to the dealership AND benefits the customer at the same time. To me, any Service Manager, Dealer principle, Service Advisor, etc. that does not recognize that fact AND operating under that orientation needs to get their priorities re-aligned. Especially as many of these people get paid off of what they produce in "work" for the repair shop!
NO need for any power-plays! Just do what you CAN for the customer and get on with things! All of the non-related squabbles over the brand of oil and such just hurt productivity and compensations thereof. We ALL know that the GM OLM can be anywhere from 3000miles to 15K miles, depending upon how the vehicle is driven (from GM's own article on such). Many Euro OEMs are now in the 10K range, with specified motor oils, for which the oil specs were designed around for particular brands of vehicles. Kind of makes our 3K or 5K oil change intervals look a little foolish, sometimes! Especially considering that oils which meet the Euro specs are also used in USA-brands' motors.
In THAT orientation, the dialogues at dealerships about warranty denial due to not following some particular oil change mileage interval (under 10K miles, for example) seem "out of place", UNLESS they can prove otherwise (unusual sludge build-up or an oil filter with "engine color" still on it at 30K miles) to indicate "lack of proper maintenance". In those cases, documentation can be key to the issue at hand.
When a mechanic opens up an engine, they can see how much and where any sludge accumulations might be, just as they can see what type of wear is on the bearings (or absence of wear). From what they've seen, they can usually suspect what the maintenance intervals might have been AND how the vehicle was used. Even if there might be some unusual sludge accumulations, their OEM probably has put some visual images in service publications to use as a guide. Weight of the oil filter can be significant, too.
As for letting somebody else do my oil changes, I would look for the brand of oil I liked and seek out those establishments, then further looking for those I trusted to do the work and do it well. In this day and time, NO tolerance of sloppy work or similar! BUT if this establishment only does oil changes and such, then when you need other work, you'll be looking again. Therefore, it might be better to find a dealership you like and feel comfortable doing business with (even particular service advisors, as mentioned, and patronizing them for everything you need done. But each has their own orientations on these things.
Just some thoughts,
CBODY67
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A lot of common sense there CBODY67. Going out of your way to deny warranty work is just silly unless there's some shenanigans going on with the shop. But from the looks of it, red flags just invite most people in instead of driving them off.
So this struck a question for me, what about used vehicles?
My girlfriend for example purchased a 2010 impala used last year with 30K miles on it from a dealer with no service records.
What would happen if she had major engine failure related to oil? She can't show records from 1-30K miles, only from 30K-Current...
No used dealership vehicles I have purchased have come with service records.
My girlfriend for example purchased a 2010 impala used last year with 30K miles on it from a dealer with no service records.
What would happen if she had major engine failure related to oil? She can't show records from 1-30K miles, only from 30K-Current...
No used dealership vehicles I have purchased have come with service records.
the stealer will do whatever it takes to try and wiggle out of warranty work in most cases... keep all records if they dont fix it under warranty your lemon law attorney will take care of it. and believe me it will cost the car company. The days of robbing the customer on repair cost is coming to an end everyone now knows the dealer is most of the time a rip off and they go somewhere else
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A close friend used to own a service station. One of his former employees had warranty issues with a Ford. I can't remember whether it was the standard warranty or an extended one, but it was definitely a Ford warranty. The former employee had his oil changes done at my friend's station with Havoline oil and a Havoline branded filter. The guy had receipts showing oil changes within the recommended oci. When the engine failed, the local Ford dealer tried to skip out on the repair claiming that because he hadn't used Motocraft products, his warranty was voided. My friend called Havoline who conducted a conference call with the Ford dealearship service manager, my friend and a Havoline represenative (who happened to be an attorney).The service manager backed down fairly quickly. I've often wondered what would have happened if this had just been a young kid who didn't have a former boss who was a service station owner with connections to Havoline. The bottom line is that there defintely are cases where the local dealer will try to dodge a big warranty claim. Although I don't consider my approach to be the only way, since hearing this story I've always let the dealer do the maintenance during the warranty period. It's just not that much more expensive to be worth the hastles if something goes wrong.
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