Warm up time for 0w vs 5w or 10w

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: rufushusky
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: rufushusky
My understanding something like a 5w-40, has the flow properties of a 5 weight oil at 0*C and the flow properties of a 40 weight oil at 100*C...

No. The 5w number has nothing to do with 0 degrees C. The test for 5w is performed at -30 degrees C for cranking viscosity and at -35 degrees C for pumping viscosity.
http://widman.biz/English/Tables/J300.html
Or better still do away with the SAE grading system entirely and show the actual viscosity on the bottle.
My preference would simply be the HTHSV value and VI with the option of a third number for extreme cold performance like the MRV.
For example Toyota 0W-20 would be 2.6 - 216 - (18,000 @ -40)
M1 0W-30 .........................3.0 - 166 - (13,250 @ -40)
M1 0W-40 .........................3.8 - 185 - (31,000 @ -40)
The bracketed figures would be optional and shown on the back of the bottle.







Hmm...learn something new every day. Thank you sir!

I should have also explained that the "5" in front of the "W" is not a weight. It's a completely different nomenclature compared to the number after the "W". It's a shame SAE hasn't done a better job differentiating the two, and hence the massive confusion among consumers. They would have been better off calling it A, B, C, D instead of 0w, 5w, 10w, 15w.

 

[CATERHAM]

Or better still do away with the SAE grading system entirely and show the actual viscosity on the bottle.
My preference would simply be the HTHSV value and VI with the option of a third number for extreme cold performance like the MRV.
For example the Toyota 0W-20 would be 2.6 - 216 - (18,000 @ -40)
M1 0W-30 ............................ 3.1 - 166 - (13,250 @ -40)
M1 0W-40 ............................ 3.8 - 185 - (31,000 @ -40)
The braketed figures would be optional and shown on the back of the bottle.

 

[Coprolite]

Originally Posted By: abycat
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Samilcar
Originally Posted By: s7er
Shouldn't it be something like:
wait for a while in idle oil will heat and viscosity decreases(which is good - perfect oil viscosity around 10 cSt at 100c)

The problem with this is that it would take hours of idling to even approach the normal 100°C (10 cSt) oil temperature from a cold start.

Lets not exagerate here.
An idling engine will get the oil up to normal operating temp's in about the same time as driving slowly, if not faster on a very cold day as there is no cooling air flow over the engine.
It's just a total waste of time, fuel and engine wear.


I know for sure my truck's oil temp gets up to the same temp within the same time idling or driving, from my oil pressure gauge. But i am a 5 minute idler in the summer or winter on both the vehicles. I also plug in my truck with a 400 watt block heater and a 200 watt oil pan heater.


In that 5 minutes, you could be a few miles down the road with the differential(s)/transmission warming up, also. 5 minutes is about 40% of my commute.

 

[tig1]

For many years I have used M1 oils. Even in the coldest temps we get here(-0 to -10F) I start the Focus(it sets under a car port, the Fusion is in the attached garage) wait maybe 20-30 seconds and drive off. That's never been a problem for me.

 

[wiswind]

Sonic, what you were told about letting a motor warm up was correct in the older, carborator engines.
Those did not run well at all when cold, for various reasons that do not apply to any of the modern vehicles that have computers and fuel injection.

I have monitored my ScanGauge, and I go from Open loop (when the oxygen sensors are not being used) to Closed Loop (when the oxygen sensors are warm enough to be used) within about 15 seconds.
What this means is, the computer adjusts the air / fuel mixture to the correct amount for the operating conditions.
THIS was not the case in the older carborator days.


What I have done for years, I start my engine and put it into gear and drive....keeping my RPMs low.....no big accelleration events.
On my current vehicle....the computer works a bit against me.....it holds the shift points to a higher RPM when the transmission fluid is cold....so in 30mph speed limit area.....I have higher RPMs than I like.
But it is no big deal.

As you have been advised......0W-xx is a upgrade over the 5W-xx as far as cold starts.
As has been pointed out, cold start is not just cold to us......70 degrees F is a cold start for a motor.

I know that this is a over-simplification.....but a 0W-30 and a 5W-30 and a 10W-30 are ALL a 30 "weight" at operating temperature.
However, the 0W-30 has a greater resistance to thicken as temperature goes down.

I have co-workers who have remote start for ther vehicles.....and when I leave work....their vehicles are idling away with no one in them.
The only real gain that they get is that their seat warmers have their seats warm and the heat is WARM.
They also change vehicles MUCH more often that I do.
It is a personal comfort thing.....not a engine longevity thing.
I'm CHEAP and don't replace vehicles as often.....and spend a LOT more on keeping what I have in good condition.

I start & go and it has worked well for me for many years.

 

[LeakySeals]

In winter I've had cars with a startup tick for a minute or so. Would wait till I didn't hear it anymore then leave. Others that were fine I'd crawl along till it loosened up. More times than not in winter I idle because I have to. Windows are all frosted up, can't see. Remote starters are big around here too.

 

[hooligan24]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Or better still do away with the SAE grading system entirely and show the actual viscosity on the bottle.
My preference would simply be the HTHSV value and VI with the option of a third number for extreme cold performance like the MRV.
For example the Toyota 0W-20 would be 2.6 - 216 - (18,000 @ -40)
M1 0W-30 ............................ 3.1 - 166 - (13,250 @ -40)
M1 0W-40 ............................ 3.8 - 185 - (31,000 @ -40)
The braketed figures would be optional and shown on the back of the bottle.


LOL, I could only imagine how many people we would see sitting in the oil section staring at the shelves and scratching their heads

 

[Ramblin Fever]

You know....this same concern has come up numerous times. I see people get in their car barely turn the key and floor it, I'm amazed how they can see out their windshield.

I'm one of those people that refuse to put the vehicle in gear til it's idled at least 5min on a cold day; for a few reasons, one, I have no way of keeping the windshield clear without somewhat of a hint of warm air.

For another, I live right next to a fast moving open country highway, I have NO time to casually drive slowly allowing the car to heat up gradually....I have 2 blocks of 25mph then instant 70mph.

Lastly, I have 2 trucks that HATE and refuse to shift out of 1st unless that temp gauge is clearly off the Cold mark; try driving one of these trucks 2 blocks, then hit 70mph....you can forget it, you'll get hit by a semi first.

I've been doing this for years, I've never had a vehicle leave my yard having anything less then 300k miles, original engine/transmission. So I don't buy the theory that it shortens a vehicle's lifespan.

 

[rjacket]

Originally Posted By: Ramblin Fever
You know....this same concern has come up numerous times. I see people get in their car barely turn the key and floor it, I'm amazed how they can see out their windshield.

I'm one of those people that refuse to put the vehicle in gear til it's idled at least 5min on a cold day; for a few reasons, one, I have no way of keeping the windshield clear without somewhat of a hint of warm air.

For another, I live right next to a fast moving open country highway, I have NO time to casually drive slowly allowing the car to heat up gradually....I have 2 blocks of 25mph then instant 70mph.

Lastly, I have 2 trucks that HATE and refuse to shift out of 1st unless that temp gauge is clearly off the Cold mark; try driving one of these trucks 2 blocks, then hit 70mph....you can forget it, you'll get hit by a semi first.

I've been doing this for years, I've never had a vehicle leave my yard having anything less then 300k miles, original engine/transmission. So I don't buy the theory that it shortens a vehicle's lifespan.


But you are hitting the highway very soon after idling!

 

[rjacket]

One thought on this. Engine block heaters of course make sense in cold temperature areas, but what about focusing on heating the oil?

Would there be a way of pre-heating the oil in a car so that it is thinner prior to starting the engine?

Would it be technically possible to remote start a heater, potentially running off the battery, to pre-heat the oil?

 

[cp3]

I'm sure it would be but I think the power requirement for the heater would probably be too much for the battery. There are oil pan heaters that plug in and could be connected to a timer.

 

[cchase]

Originally Posted By: rjacket
One thought on this. Engine block heaters of course make sense in cold temperature areas, but what about focusing on heating the oil?

Would there be a way of pre-heating the oil in a car so that it is thinner prior to starting the engine?

Would it be technically possible to remote start a heater, potentially running off the battery, to pre-heat the oil?


Many "block heaters" sold aftermarkets are just oil pan heaters.

 

[Samilcar]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Samilcar
Originally Posted By: s7er
Shouldn't it be something like:
wait for a while in idle oil will heat and viscosity decreases(which is good - perfect oil viscosity around 10 cSt at 100c)

The problem with this is that it would take hours of idling to even approach the normal 100°C (10 cSt) oil temperature from a cold start.

Lets not exagerate here.
An idling engine will get the oil up to normal operating temp's in about the same time as driving slowly


I'm not so sure about that, but I have nothing to back me up data-wise. The only way to know for sure would be to monitor the rise in actual oil temperature over time under the two different conditions. I do know that the rise in oil temperature lags well behind the rise in coolant temperature as indicated by the few times I've driven vehicles that have both coolant and oil temperature gauges.

Does anyone here have any experience with monitoring oil temp rises under the two different conditions?

 

[cp3]

I believe CATERHAM does.

 

[cchase]

In my GTO, the oil will never get up to operating temperature by just idling.

 

[CATERHAM]

Well you've obviously not tried it.
Since many modern cars are equipped with coolant to oil heat exchangers it's inevitable that the oil temp's will approach the coolant temp's.
With a car idling the coolant temp's will rise above normal operating temp's since no air is flowing through the rad. This "hot" condition will hasten the rise in oil temp's even in a car without a heat exchanger.

In the past I have started engines in the dead of winter in the garage, left them idling and after 15-20 minutes the oil temp's are more or less where they would be after a 15-20 slow run on the road.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Or better still do away with the SAE grading system entirely and show the actual viscosity on the bottle.
My preference would simply be the HTHSV value and VI with the option of a third number for extreme cold performance like the MRV.
For example the Toyota 0W-20 would be 2.6 - 216 - (18,000 @ -40)
M1 0W-30 ............................ 3.1 - 166 - (13,250 @ -40)
M1 0W-40 ............................ 3.8 - 185 - (31,000 @ -40)
The braketed figures would be optional and shown on the back of the bottle.


I like to have the above information, but it is nice to also have a broad category clearly marked on the label and grouped on the shelves.

 

[CATERHAM]

Yes I thought about that and it's the only negative I can see.
The fact is, the SAE grade on a bottle is ALL about marketing.
Nevertheless having some basic actual viscosity spec's on the bottle IMO should be a consumer requirement just like the small nutritional facts label is on pre-packaged, processed foods.
I really don't know why some formulator doesn't voluntarily do it; I think it would have some real marketing appeal as a novelty if nothing else. But I fear most oil companies are more interested in "selling the sizzle and not the steak", and want to avoid getting into a technical competition at all costs.

 

[cchase]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Well you've obviously not tried it.


Was this comment directed at me?

In any case, I did actually go through the motions by starting up the car, letting it idle for about 30 minutes, and then drain the oil. The oil was what I would describe as "lukewarm" at that point and still visibly thick.

 

[Chris11]

Where I live Winters can be as cold as -32F. I have only ever used 5W30 Conventional Motor Oil. It's true that it does thicken in the cold but it really isn't that bad. I would start the car and let it run while I brushed the snow off and scraped the windows clear. This would take about 3-4 mins. Then I would take it easy driving the car. Letting the car sit and idle would take forever to warm it up. My biggest concern was even just a thin amount of frost on the windshield would cause a glare from the street lights that would blind me. After only 2 mins of driving the car would already have enough heat to clear the windshield so I could properly see.

My trips to work in the morning (I work at 1 am) were short trips. About 3 miles. Before I even got to the parking lot the car would have reached normal operating temp. The engine was quiet as a mouse. Due to the short trips not burning off possible condensation and fuel dilution I would change the oil and filter every 3 months regardless of how little mileage I had on the oil. I never had problems doing that. My last 2 cars had over 300,000 miles on them doing that. I have only ever gotten rid of cars not because of engine troubles but because of the road salt that is used in Winters here. I causes the body, brakes, chassis, exhaust etc to become so rusted that the car looks terrible and I no longer want it.

I recently changed to an oil filter that uses a silicone ADBV. The engine seems to run quieter sooner with it as opposed the the rubber ADBV that I used before.

I know running synthetic motor oil in the Winters for me would prolong the engine life for sure. However, If I had a car make it to the 500,000 or beyond mile maker I guarantee that if I sat in the car and slammed the door shut the car would disintegrate from all the rust it would have. LOL!