VW's Emissions Retrofit May Be Among Costliest
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This is perhaps the only factual wordment in the article that describes what VW is going to do:
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Quote:
Volkswagen will have to find a place for a multigallon urea tank. They may have to drill through sheet metal to create a filler neck that’s convenient for consumers who would need to replenish the liquid every three or four months. It may cost thousands of dollars per car, he said.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2...st-recalls-ever
But since no source from VW was quoted, it's mostly speculation by people who are not directly involved. This is Bloomberg news, so they're slightly more legitimate than most internet "news" sources. So VW is adding SCR to cars not originally built with it? That will be a mess. Or are they just putting a bigger urea tank in cars already with SCR? This was my initial thought when the issue came up. VW was probably trying to trying to economize on urea.
Sorry for adding speculation on top of speculation.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Quote:
Volkswagen will have to find a place for a multigallon urea tank. They may have to drill through sheet metal to create a filler neck that’s convenient for consumers who would need to replenish the liquid every three or four months. It may cost thousands of dollars per car, he said.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2...st-recalls-ever
But since no source from VW was quoted, it's mostly speculation by people who are not directly involved. This is Bloomberg news, so they're slightly more legitimate than most internet "news" sources. So VW is adding SCR to cars not originally built with it? That will be a mess. Or are they just putting a bigger urea tank in cars already with SCR? This was my initial thought when the issue came up. VW was probably trying to trying to economize on urea.
Sorry for adding speculation on top of speculation.
Originally Posted By: Smokescreen
Running the EPA program code all the time would probably yield lower real life mpgs thus stirring up the dissatisfaction of customers..lawsuits like what happened to other companies.
The bean counters must have gone over the choice to run EPA program code vs the urine fix...and decided urine is less beans.
Almost definitely. To get NOx down without urea requires turning up the EGR even further, which hurts mpg. The urea fix might actually help mpg slightly if it lets them reduce the current EGR flow a bit.
Running the EPA program code all the time would probably yield lower real life mpgs thus stirring up the dissatisfaction of customers..lawsuits like what happened to other companies.
The bean counters must have gone over the choice to run EPA program code vs the urine fix...and decided urine is less beans.
Almost definitely. To get NOx down without urea requires turning up the EGR even further, which hurts mpg. The urea fix might actually help mpg slightly if it lets them reduce the current EGR flow a bit.
Originally Posted By: kschachn
So all of that stuff they have to do - that means that you can't just tell the computer to run in "emissions test" mode all the time, rather than just when it's being tested?
I also think that this requires an explanation.
So all of that stuff they have to do - that means that you can't just tell the computer to run in "emissions test" mode all the time, rather than just when it's being tested?
I also think that this requires an explanation.
In states where there are NO emissions inspections I would avoid the "recall" at all costs. I would NEVER take my car in for that retrofit. I'd urge all others in similar states NOT to have this recall performed if at all possible if you plan on keeping the car.
Originally Posted By: zzyzzx
Originally Posted By: kschachn
So all of that stuff they have to do - that means that you can't just tell the computer to run in "emissions test" mode all the time, rather than just when it's being tested?
I also think that this requires an explanation.
Probably because co will go up and economy and performance down.
VW has said cars without adblue will require a software and "hardware" fix. They have not said exactly what hardware AFAIK. If they are adding adblue to cars without it, it better be well thought out and cleanly installed. If it is most owners will likely be fine with it. I know I will as long as the car still runs good and gets the same economy it does now.
Originally Posted By: kschachn
So all of that stuff they have to do - that means that you can't just tell the computer to run in "emissions test" mode all the time, rather than just when it's being tested?
I also think that this requires an explanation.
Probably because co will go up and economy and performance down.
VW has said cars without adblue will require a software and "hardware" fix. They have not said exactly what hardware AFAIK. If they are adding adblue to cars without it, it better be well thought out and cleanly installed. If it is most owners will likely be fine with it. I know I will as long as the car still runs good and gets the same economy it does now.
If the recall is forced down onto the owners and mandatory for the registration, then I see quite an opportunity to buy these diesels from the states that would have this requirement and sell them to states where diesel emissions is not a requirement.
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Not for nothing how about they go after the diesel tuners next?
How dare you point out hypocrisy!
Not for nothing how about they go after the diesel tuners next?
How dare you point out hypocrisy!
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
If the recall is forced down onto the owners and mandatory for the registration, then I see quite an opportunity to buy these diesels from the states that would have this requirement and sell them to states where diesel emissions is not a requirement.
I cannot speak to Canada, but the problem here in the states is these vehicles are breaking Federal law and the shell game of moving vehicle between states just delays the inevitable when the Federal govt. is looking for 100% compliance or sending them to the crusher.
If the recall is forced down onto the owners and mandatory for the registration, then I see quite an opportunity to buy these diesels from the states that would have this requirement and sell them to states where diesel emissions is not a requirement.
I cannot speak to Canada, but the problem here in the states is these vehicles are breaking Federal law and the shell game of moving vehicle between states just delays the inevitable when the Federal govt. is looking for 100% compliance or sending them to the crusher.
Up here, recalls tend to be made mandatory for the OEMs, but it's up to the individual vehicle owner to decide whether or when to comply, although Alberta may be a different kettle of fish, as has been indicated already. I had a bunch of recall notices for minor issues on Town Cars that I just threw in the trash. For my Lightning, I got the recall done, since it started throwing CELs.
Originally Posted By: eljefino
Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
EPA has seen software cheats before, so why not do a little something to check for high levels of noxious fumes (some here luv to breathe it in) off-rollers?
If they went to Congress and asked for $1 for a gizmo to sit roadside and sniff out cars that had already passed their barrage of tests, Congress would ask why, and deny them.
I wasn't really thinking of those roadside devices that you around the Denver area like you mention. I was referring to the fact that the entire planet was suspicious of VW when they introduced "clean diesel" without using AdBlue. Every automotive engineer in the EPA and other manufacturers were like "Huh??? How can they do that. Must be a miracle. So we won't check for cheating using a tow-behind trailer that the exhaust piped into to measure emissions on the road, just a rough-ish measure would have caught them cheating.
I'm saying the incredulity of non-urea usage, thought to stretch the laws of chemistry, was well known when VW-Audi magically "passed" emissions tests with great power/driveablity. When its too good to be true, it might just be cheating. Experts now are saying "Ah-ha, I knew something was up."
Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
EPA has seen software cheats before, so why not do a little something to check for high levels of noxious fumes (some here luv to breathe it in) off-rollers?
If they went to Congress and asked for $1 for a gizmo to sit roadside and sniff out cars that had already passed their barrage of tests, Congress would ask why, and deny them.
I wasn't really thinking of those roadside devices that you around the Denver area like you mention. I was referring to the fact that the entire planet was suspicious of VW when they introduced "clean diesel" without using AdBlue. Every automotive engineer in the EPA and other manufacturers were like "Huh??? How can they do that. Must be a miracle. So we won't check for cheating using a tow-behind trailer that the exhaust piped into to measure emissions on the road, just a rough-ish measure would have caught them cheating.
I'm saying the incredulity of non-urea usage, thought to stretch the laws of chemistry, was well known when VW-Audi magically "passed" emissions tests with great power/driveablity. When its too good to be true, it might just be cheating. Experts now are saying "Ah-ha, I knew something was up."
Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
What do you think VW should do now ? Don't fix anything ?
I have the solution. It has recent precedent too.
Remember when GM emerged from bankruptcy and changed its name to the "New GM"?
VW could declare bankruptcy, change its name to "New VW", and not owe anybody anything, just like GM did! Very clever. GM simply said "We're not the same old company, technically we are a different company now, so we have no liability for old GM problems now." They actually did that. It was amazing when it happened. VW could too.
Going that route would leave the cars out of compliance and not eligible for registration.
A good time to own a mobile car crusher.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
What do you think VW should do now ? Don't fix anything ?
I have the solution. It has recent precedent too.
Remember when GM emerged from bankruptcy and changed its name to the "New GM"?
VW could declare bankruptcy, change its name to "New VW", and not owe anybody anything, just like GM did! Very clever. GM simply said "We're not the same old company, technically we are a different company now, so we have no liability for old GM problems now." They actually did that. It was amazing when it happened. VW could too.
Going that route would leave the cars out of compliance and not eligible for registration.
A good time to own a mobile car crusher.
Originally Posted By: zzyzzx
Originally Posted By: kschachn
So all of that stuff they have to do - that means that you can't just tell the computer to run in "emissions test" mode all the time, rather than just when it's being tested?
I also think that this requires an explanation.
My WAG is that would allow the old computer program to be reinstalled, as many here have indicated they would do, and leave VW perpetually liable for the emissions non compliance of the vehicle.
Originally Posted By: kschachn
So all of that stuff they have to do - that means that you can't just tell the computer to run in "emissions test" mode all the time, rather than just when it's being tested?
I also think that this requires an explanation.
My WAG is that would allow the old computer program to be reinstalled, as many here have indicated they would do, and leave VW perpetually liable for the emissions non compliance of the vehicle.
In the Navistar situation, they came under the ire of the EPA over their not meeting standards with their EGR only solution. While Navistar had to change things, go to SCR and DEF, and had to really pay thru the nose in compliance fines and such along with eating some crow, no owner was required to get any retrofit for non compliant trucks or offered some sort of upgrade to meet any compliance stuff. The entire thing was placed on the OEM. Not sure why this would be any different for VW owners. I think it is a little soon to speculate what pitfalls the owners themselves may have. Navistar was not even forced to retrofit trucks that had not met compliance. Even CARB, the most stringent regulatory agency in the U.S. when it comes to diesels, is not forcing any Navistar owner to get retrofits to bring motors into full compliance. Not sure the sky is falling for VW owners.
Bump.
New reports coming in that due to the expected high cost of the emission fiasco that VW has started cost cutting. It is expected that they will cut development costs which could hurt their future products.
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/10/27/volkswagen-halts-managerial-promotions-restricts-spending/
New reports coming in that due to the expected high cost of the emission fiasco that VW has started cost cutting. It is expected that they will cut development costs which could hurt their future products.
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/10/27/volkswagen-halts-managerial-promotions-restricts-spending/
In Europe, part of the fix for the 1.6 and 2.0 diesels will be a passive labyrinth to help create laminar flow across the MAF.
http://autoweek.com/article/vw-diesel-scandal/vw-reveals-diesel-fix-16-and-20-liter-engines-europe
It'll be interesting to see if the fix is that simple for the US models.
http://autoweek.com/article/vw-diesel-scandal/vw-reveals-diesel-fix-16-and-20-liter-engines-europe
It'll be interesting to see if the fix is that simple for the US models.
I doubt it'll even be that simple for the european models... Lies upon lies, I fear...
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http://autoweek.com/article/vw-diesel-scandal/carb-full-fix-vw-diesels-may-not-be-possible
A California Air Resources Board official said this week that a complete retrofit for certain diesel Volkswagen models may not be possible, Reuters reports. [82,000 of them]
"We will have to decide what the best approach is to dealing with these vehicles, and one of the options potentially would be to accept something less than a full fix," Sax [the CARB official] added.
In this case, according to Sax, VW will need to mitigate the environmental harm done by vehicles remaining on the roads by paying a fine, a prospect that appeared unavoidable from the start.
A California Air Resources Board official said this week that a complete retrofit for certain diesel Volkswagen models may not be possible, Reuters reports. [82,000 of them]
"We will have to decide what the best approach is to dealing with these vehicles, and one of the options potentially would be to accept something less than a full fix," Sax [the CARB official] added.
In this case, according to Sax, VW will need to mitigate the environmental harm done by vehicles remaining on the roads by paying a fine, a prospect that appeared unavoidable from the start.
This news from today that in late 2014 or early 2015 VW improved their cheater code because they were having issues with their particulate filters. They issued an update to 500,000 cars to update the software. How was their management not aware again?.....
http://www.forbes.com/sites/bertelschmit...r-being-caught/
http://www.forbes.com/sites/bertelschmit...r-being-caught/
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