Viscosity difference by country (UK-USA)

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According to the Centre for CLimate and Energy Solutions
http://www.c2es.org/federal/executive/vehicle-standards#undervalue

Consumers don't tend to make the correct decisions with regard to choosing for fuel economy, and need "society" who values economy more to decide for them...

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Why Consumers Undervalue Fuel Economy
U.S. fuel economy and greenhouse gas standards exist because individual drivers tend to value savings from fuel economy much less than society as a whole, which leads to more oil consumption than would occur if soceital benefits were taken into account. The benefits to society of higher fuel economy include, but are not limited to, reduced impacts on global climate, improved energy security, and overall consumer savings. But those benefits are not top of mind when a consumer buys a car.
In addition, when making purchasing decisions, most people assume a dollar today is worth more than a dollar in the future since the dollar today can be invested and grow in value over time. The value people assign to a dollar in the future compared to a dollar today is known as the discount rate, or the interest rate they would expect on a dollar invested today. For example, a discount rate of 20 percent means consumers assume they will make 20 percent interest annually on money invested today, which is unlikely. Thus, the higher the discount rate a consumer uses, the more likely a consumer is to invest that money instead of spending it on a product. Consumers can exhibit different discount rates depending on the product.
For passenger cars, David Greene from Oak Ridge National Laboratory found that the value consumers place on fuel economy savings varies widely, but empirical research reveals a discount rate between 4 and 40 percent. The discount rate that society put on fuel savings is much closer to 4 percent, meaning consumers often substantially undervalue fuel economy compared to society.
 
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According to NHTSA, in their CAFE documentation

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At the top of the engine decision tree Low Friction Lubricants (LUB) and Engine Friction Reduction (EFR) technologies are retained as utilized in the NPRM.


Table IV-1 shows the heirarchy.

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However, for low friction lubricants, the model is not restricted to applying it during a refresh/redesign year and thus it was made available for application at any time. Low friction lubricants are very cost-effective, can apply to multiple vehicle models/platforms and can be applied across multiple vehicle models/platforms in one year. Although they can also be applied during a refresh/redesign year, they are not restricted to that timeframe because their application is
not viewed as necessitating a major engineering redesign and associated testing/calibration.


Quote:
(ii) Low Friction Lubricants (LUB)
One of the most basic methods of reducing fuel consumption in gasoline engines is the use of lower viscosity engine lubricants. More advanced multi-viscosity engine oils are available today with improved performance in a wider temperature band and with better lubricating properties. CAFE standards notwithstanding, the trend towards lower friction lubricants is widespread. Within the next several year, most vehicles are likely to use 5W-30 motor oil, and some will use even less viscous oils, such as 5W-20 or possibly even 0W-20, to reduce cold start friction


Quote:
Low friction lubricants may be applied to any class of vehicles. The phase-in for low friction lubricants is capped at 50 percent for MY 2011. Honda commented that low friction lubricants cannot be applied to engines that have not been developed specifically for them.162 NHTSA understands that in some cases there could be a need for design changes and durability verification to implement low friction lubricants in existing engines. However, aftermarket low friction lubricant products already exist, and have been approved for use in existing engines.


Table IV-16 shows the "cost" to the consumer of various fuel saving strategies, and LUB is shown as $5 installed per vehicle, which engine friction reduction itself is 10 times that and upwards.
 
"backstop" rules require the manufacturer, having carried out the testing and certification using these lubricants, coerce the consumer into maintaining those standards.

In a way, I agree with the sentiment that it's silly for an engine to outlive the car by a factor of two/three whatever, so choosing lubricants that target a reduction in fuel used, and a more even lifecycle for the whole machine makes sense.

And as consumers (and we see it every day here), we will spend an extra couple of dollars to make the engine last forever, only to buy something else, have it totalled, or rust out.

The drive for Energy saving oils isn't to give you a million mile engine, it's to save fuel (or the new "carbon" buzzword that's prevalent in the NHTSA document)...same for Japan, you can't economically own a car for 100,000 miles, they force you off the road well before the car is really even that used. They have carbon restrictions, and are adopting thin oils.
 
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Probably because 5W-20s have been widely available in the US since both Honda and Ford adopted them a dozen or so years ago.
Probably also because the recommended OCIs are much longer in the UK than they are in the US, mainly because oil is so much more expensive in Merry Old than it is here.
There is no way that Hyundai would be able to shift any cars anywhere in the EU if they tried the 3750 mile OCI in "severe service" with almost any use of the car being "severe service" nonsense they play here.
They have to recommend much longer drain intervals in EU markets, so they've recommended a grade better able to withstand the shearing and fuel dilution that accompany longer drain intervals.
People like to claim that CAFE has driven US oil grade recommendations.
It's equally valid to maintain that the need for much longer OCIs has driven grade recommendations in other markets.
We use thinner grades here because we can afford shorter OCIs.
Motor oil here is cheap by the standards of the rest of the developed world, as are cars, housing, food and just about everything else.
If we had EU level motor oil prices, we'd be using thicker grades on much longer drain intervals as well.
Dave Newton would be smiling with approval.

And yet your car fleet has highest fuel consumption on average in world. Except some high end models , cars sold in US would be considered obsolete in the rest of the world. ILSAC oils are inferior to common A3/B4 oil and could not withstand severe use cars get elsewhere. Mineral oils are cheap over here too, but in what car you could use it? Saying that Europeans can't afford frequent oil changes is really stupid. Do you know what standard of living Scandinavians have?
 
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I'll make this simple for you.
There are a number of very fuel efficient vehicles available in the US.
Most Americans select thirstier vehicles as daily drivers because the cost of fuel here is so low as compared to what it costs in Europe. You can drive a half ton V-8 pickup here for less fuel cost per mile than you can some little liter car in Europe.
I paid $3.19/gal yesterday, for example.
When it comes to motor oil, you should really pay attention to what your fellow members are using. Most of us use synthetics and most of us still do OCIs much shorter than those typical in Europe. We do this because we can buy these synthetics for a whole lot less than what you pay in the EU.
For example, I can drop by Walmart and buy an oil that meets the standards required for any gasser sold in Europe for $22.46/jug.
Although it's off-topic, since you brought it up, I'll let you know that 2013 GDP per capita for Sweden was $43,455 USD while that of the US was $53,143.
 
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Most Americans select thirstier vehicles as daily drivers because the cost of fuel here is so low as compared to what it costs in Europe. You can drive a half ton V-8 pickup here for less fuel cost per mile than you can some little liter car in Europe.
I paid $3.19/gal yesterday, for example.


Ain't that the truth...my recent roadtrip, 3,000 miles in the desert, and wasn't paying much over $4 for premium.

I couldn't get over the V-8 exhaust note just about everywhere, as applications that would be exclusively diesel in Oz, and presumably Europe, were running V-8s and V-10s (airport shuttles, trolley cars etc.)
 
Thanks for making it simple for me. Shell Helix Ultra cost 5€ liter here so oils are getting cheaper here too.I understand petrol is inexpensive in US and for that reason you drive big petrol trucks. Who wouldn't to be fair? My point is if you drive a v8 what is the reason for use of ILSAC fuel conserving oil. With more stout oil you could prolong oci with no mesurable increase of fuel consumption. Since you mentioned GDP of US and Sweden tell me how is that wealth distributed among people of both countrys. GDP in US is very high but that means little to the over 600000 homeless souls in US.
 
C'mon gents, let's leave GDP, KGB, IRS and NRA out of this thread.
crazy.gif
 
Really, what are the Real World fuel savings to be gained between, say, a 5w-20 and a 10w-30 ?

I imagine it would only be significant or even measurable for short trips in near freezing temperatures..
 
Originally Posted By: wemay
C'mon gents, let's leave GDP, KGB, IRS and NRA out of this thread.
crazy.gif




I don't think affordability has anything to do with it, on each side of the pond, there are people that will follow the manufacturers OCI recommendations, thoses that will only change oil when they feel like (if ever) and those of use (few) that likely over think the issue.

To say the manufacturer thinks the consumer "Will not likely follow our OCI recommendations, so we will spec a better oil to compensate"
Is rediculas.
 
Originally Posted By: expat
Really, what are the Real World fuel savings to be gained between, say, a 5w-20 and a 10w-30 ?

I imagine it would only be significant or even measurable for short trips in near freezing temperatures..


Agreed!
 
Originally Posted By: Nitrofan1
Originally Posted By: expat
Really, what are the Real World fuel savings to be gained between, say, a 5w-20 and a 10w-30 ?

I imagine it would only be significant or even measurable for short trips in near freezing temperatures..


Agreed!


+1. If you put M1 0w40 A3 oil in your American,Japanese or Korean ILSAC car nothing will happen. Consumption will stay the same and you could prolong OCI to at least 10k miles. Jeeps and Chryslers are only American cars sold in Europe and they all drive with 5w40 just fine. So does Asian ones. All of them with at least 20k km to 40k km OCI.
 
I have a 2009 Saturn Vue with the 2.4 ecotec. When I compared the Euro Vauxhall and Opel versions with the same engines, the recommended oil type and grade were A3 5w30, 0w30, 5w40 or 0w40 oil. This was with a 1 year or 30000 km (18-20000 miles) oci. The same engines outside of Europe was to use regular 5w30 API oil with a 15000 km (10000 mile) or 1 year oci. I'm starting to like the new 0w40 oil's available now for turbo and D.I. engines.
 
I believe that US having much more hours and mileages at highway driving,e done at moderate torque/power (speed), could do a thinner oil. Middle Easte having too much sand, and, much less highway mileages (more wot pelo hour/mileage) need a thicker oil to give cushion to the "parts-to-particle-clearance". Higher WOT per hour + Low speed/miles per hour + More sand per oil = 20w50 oil.
smile.gif

Just betting, not being wise guy...
 
Originally Posted By: Rosetta
I believe that US having much more hours and mileages at highway driving,e done at moderate torque/power (speed), could do a thinner oil. Middle East & S.America, having too much sand, warmer climate and, much less highway mileages (more wot pelo hour/mileage) need a thicker oil to give cushion to the "parts-to-particle-clearance". Higher WOT per hour + Low speed/miles per hour + More sand per oil change = 20w50 oil.
smile.gif

Just betting, not being wise guy...
 
You can run many engines on 10K+ OCIs using API/ILSAC spec synthetics and many here have done so for years.
My '12 Accord will allow 10K+ OCIs if driven under the right conditions using an API spec 0W-20 oil.
If a thicker grade isn't required, then there's no advantage in using one.
M1 0W-40 is a high HTHS oil suited to high specific output applications that may be run quite hard.
OTOH, the very fast Chevrolet Corvette has nothing more than a 5W-30 recommended for it, with no recommendation of anything thicker for track use.
 
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Yes and I find it baffling how many people are afraid of 30 weight oil.


I agree! I think it`s funny when someone asks something like,"How would PYB 10W30 work for me?" And someone says,"Why so thick??" They`d have a cow if they saw my stash of 20W50
grin.gif
 
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Yes and I find it baffling how many people are afraid of 30 weight oil.


I agree! I think it`s funny when someone asks something like,"How would PYB 10W30 work for me?" And someone says,"Why so thick??" They`d have a cow if they saw my stash of 20W50
grin.gif




To be fair, it's also funny when people doubt their Owner's Manual recommendation, concluding the viscosity is too thin because of internet anecdotes, blaming CAFE for all the world's evils.
 
Originally Posted By: expat
I think that some parts of the US can experience much lower temps than the UK.

My guess is that oil viscosity recommendations are based on the lowest temp the oil is likly to see.
Hence, the UK and Austrailia among other places have manufacturers oil recommendations for lower viscosity.



Then in that case, the US should have a 0wxx and Ireland and the UK should be 5wxx, not:

Originally Posted By: wemay

....
Sonata 2.4 - US 5w20
Sonata 2.4 (i45) -UK 0w30 /5w30


the other way around. And you can't say that Ireland is warmer than the US, requiring xw30 instead of xw20, since it's not.

There has to be some other reason, and I agree. It's CAFE.
 
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Originally Posted By: Kuato
Originally Posted By: expat
I think that some parts of the US can experience much lower temps than the UK.

My guess is that oil viscosity recommendations are based on the lowest temp the oil is likly to see.
Hence, the UK and Austrailia among other places have manufacturers oil recommendations for lower viscosity.



Then in that case, the US should have a 0wxx and Ireland and the UK should be 5wxx, not:

Originally Posted By: wemay

....
Sonata 2.4 - US 5w20
Sonata 2.4 (i45) -UK 0w30 /5w30


the other way around. And you can't say that Ireland is warmer than the US, requiring xw30 instead of xw20, since it's not.

There has to be some other reason, and I agree. It's CAFE.


But if taken one step further, wouldn't that argument suggest a 0w20 would be better to satisfy CAFE for U.S. Hyundai 2.4?

Toyota and Honda already use it, and from what ive read, even BMW is adopting 0w20 in its N20 turbo application. I cant see these, or any brand, sacrificing reliability for mpg. But of course, that is just my layman's opinion.
 
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