Very low miles per year – change interval?

[GatorHawkGT]

My bike is ridden on a regular basis year-round, but with many frequent short trips. I am currently changing at 4-6 months intervals (approx every 200 to 300 miles).

It seems like I am wasting $ as the oil has low miles on it, but the oil sometimes does seem ‘watery’ when drained. There is no coolant leaking into the oil that can be observed. (There is no change in the coolant reservoir level) So I am assuming that it is all of the condensation that doesn’t get burned off from proper warm-up.

Have searched the forums and seen many folks changing it once a year in the fall before winter storage, but this is different as I ride year-round here in Florida, with many short trips. And the watery nature of the oil when it is changed is a little unnerving.

1) I’ve been using the 4-6 month interval for some time with no problems and would welcome comments on extending the interval to 10-12 months.

2) Is the watery nature of the oil cause for concern? Should I instead be changing it more frequently?

Thank you for reading this!

Details:
1989 Honda HawkGT NT650 (Water cooled 650cc V-Twin)
600 miles/year, ridden year-round
South Florida temperatures
80% short trips of ~1.3 miles
Fill: AnyMajorBrand Dino 15W-40 (currently Castrol Tection) and OEM Honda Filter
Wet Clutch/Shared Sump with gearbox
2.5 quarts are changed out each time with the filter (2.9Q total system capacity)
Honda recommendations: 10w40 or 20w50, 8000 mile oil & filter change interval, with no mention of time (hence why I am asking this question).

 

[TucsonDon]

Originally Posted By: GatorHawkGT
And the watery nature of the oil when it is changed is a little unnerving.

That's the key. Your riding pattern maps to a time-based change interval, not a mileage based interval. Short trips means the accumulation of moisture in the oil and pipes. Being in a humid environment like Florida doesn't help.

My take on this -- this is my opinion, for what it's worth -- I'd go every 3 months max with a conventional 15W-40. That's really just to flush the moisture on a semi-frequent basis. At $10 or so a gallon you can pick up good HDEO that'll have sufficient anti-oxidation properties to hold you three months.

You may also want to consider periodically (once a week?) taking the bike out on the highway and running it good and hard for an hour every once in a while -- to really heat the system up, engine and pipes.

 

[FZ1]

Maybe you could shorten the oci time from 6 m to 5 m and then to 4m,if necessary, until the watery aspect is eliminated. .02.

 

[02zx9r]

Originally Posted By: TucsonDon
Originally Posted By: GatorHawkGT
And the watery nature of the oil when it is changed is a little unnerving.

That's the key. Your riding pattern maps to a time-based change interval, not a mileage based interval. Short trips means the accumulation of moisture in the oil and pipes. Being in a humid environment like Florida doesn't help.

My take on this -- this is my opinion, for what it's worth -- I'd go every 3 months max with a conventional 15W-40. That's really just to flush the moisture on a semi-frequent basis. At $10 or so a gallon you can pick up good HDEO that'll have sufficient anti-oxidation properties to hold you three months.

You may also want to consider periodically (once a week?) taking the bike out on the highway and running it good and hard for an hour every once in a while -- to really heat the system up, engine and pipes.


agree, shorter dran intervals, if you can get on the highway and get the motor and oil up to optimum temps and leave it there to burn off the condensation and fuel every so often you might could go a tad longer

 

[Barkleymut]

2.5 quarts = $5

I would run it for 30 miles once every two months to keep the oil healthy. Assuming you get 60 MPG???? then this will cost $2 every 2 months which equals $12/year. I would think this would be enough to get a year easily out of the oil. Although it really doesn't matter as you could change out the oil 4 times a year for $20 then add in the filter once a year.

 

[dnewton3]

First, I'd do a few UOA's. Looks (the appearance of oil) can be decieving. Get good data, then make a decision.

Only 600 miles a year? I'd continue the use of inexpensive HDEO like Rotella or Delo or Tection Extra. BTW - get a good filter from Wix (51358) or Purolator (L14610); it will perform as well as the OEM for a lot less money.

Again, let the UOA be your guide. Why pay $20 for a UOA when you can change oil for less? Because you raised a concern about oil quality regarding possible contamination.

My suggestion (and this will seem like heresy, but hear me out) is that you run the HDEO and a Wix filter for probably two years or so (around 1200 miles?). There is nothing magical about a one year OCI. Oil and filters don't mysteriously go "bad" after 12 months have elaspsed. For many of us, the down season for motorcycles can sometimes be pretty lengthy. But for you, ridding year round, that shouldn't be an issue.

I use the same logic with my 1966 convertible Mustang. I'll bet I don't drive it 500 miles a year; possibly less (summer top down cruising only). I run Rotella 10w-30 with a typical Wix 51515 filter. I OCI every other year. I still sleep well at night, too.

Your biggest concern is likely going to be condensation (not up to temp for long) and fuel dilution (choke on for a larger percent of the run time), with such short trips. The best way to combat condensation based acids is with a high TBN oil; alas - the suggestion for a diesel based HDEO! The fuel dilution? Just get the choke off asap keeping rideability in mind.

If I didn't make it clear, I'll state it again and again.

UOA
UOA
UOA

In fact, there is an SAE white paper from several years ago done by Ford that showed elevated wear metals right after oil changes. There was an unofficial study done by a few guys comparing Mobil 1 and Amsoil; they found the same results. Changing oil too often can lead to higher wear, believe it or not.

Let the UOA be your guide. After a couple, you'll be convinced that 300 mile OCI's are nuts! If you don't want to spend the money on UOA's, then just take my word for it and OCI at a minimum of 1 year, and possibly 2.

Yeah, I know, heresy.

 

[kballowe]

"2) Is the watery nature of the oil cause for concern? Should I instead be changing it more frequently?"

What do you consider the watery nature of oil?

If (when you unscrew the fill plug) you see some white gunk built up there, then that is a good indication that you are getting condensation. Also watch carefully when draining the oil to see if there's any water in there.

Did you mean that the oil looks watery when you drain it? e.g. just looks really thin - like water?

Hey - just change it in the fall of the year (pretend it's your lawnmower).

 

[TucsonDon]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
In fact, there is an SAE white paper from several years ago done by Ford that showed elevated wear metals right after oil changes. There was an unofficial study done by a few guys comparing Mobil 1 and Amsoil; they found the same results. Changing oil too often can lead to higher wear, believe it or not.

Really? What might be an explanation for that?

I've often wondered if an oil starts out fresh like a new shoe -- a little "tight". Only after a little wear does it "settle in." I can't think of a single physical/mechanical/molecular reason why that would be true ... except *maybe* because an oil will start at the higher end of its viscosity range and typically work down from there.

 

[kballowe]

It's funny someone would say that because if you look at some of these UOA's and then divide the numbers up - there are more than a few that suport this theory - that sometimes longer change intervals are actually better (less total wear per mile)

 

[GatorHawkGT]

RE: Fuel Dilution & Choke
Don’t use the choke anymore. D’oh! The cable broke YEARS ago and I’ve warmed up without it since. So I think the fuel dilution should be low.

RE: Watery Nature of the oil
I’ll check the fill cap area now for any evidence of water and will report back. Haven’t seen any white junk yet. Yes, as you said, it just looks really thin. The oil just seems very to have very little viscosity left. It is definitely all of the condensation mixed in. But looks can be deceiving, which leads to the next point:

RE: UOA
I did think very hard for a long time about doing UOAs. And may do a couple to definitely see what is going on. I’ve never done one before, only because with the cages, I’ve settled on OCIs that are comfortable for me. But maybe with this bike I’ll finally take the plunge and do an UOA.

Some comments on why so many short trips…Living in South Florida, don’t get as many chances to go for long rides like I used to in North Florida. Down here it can get a little dicey in the urbans, if you know what I mean. So the cage gets used for most long distance stuff. And I end up using the torquey Vtwin to squirt around town: milk runs, GF house and back, fun zips to the beach, etc. The motor ends up cooling down each time. So it’s almost like per week I do seven separate 1.5 mile trips, all from cold start. I know it’s VERY BAD for the bike (bordering on sacrilegious), and now I’m thinking I may redouble my efforts to once or twice a week just riding longer. I always start it up immediately and let it idle as much as I can and wait till the last possible second to shut it down (it wastes gas, but six ones half a dozen). Will also start bicycling more than usual, but the V-Twin is just too fun some times, even for short trips.

What started this question in my mind, is that with my two cages, both manufacturers say “change oil every X miles or X months, whichever comes first”. With the bike, Honda didn’t offer any guidance with regards to time.

Over the past 6 years, OCI was, on average: 5.2 months w/ 320 miles on the oil. First 3 years used 10W40, then wised up to 15W-40 HDEO.

Thank you to everyone for your comments & observations thus far!

 

[dnewton3]

I can understand why many manufacturers state the whole "or x months" thing. It does put the onus on the owner to make sure that maintainenance is done.

Overall, UOA's are going to show you trends and ranges to expect wear metals in. You have to do several of them with the same brand/grade of oil to get any consistent results.

However, there are other benefits to a UOA that can be gleaned from a single UOA. Fuel dilution, moisture (condensation), and coolant intrusion can be picked up in just one UOA. If you don't want to spend the money looking for long term trends for wear metals, perhaps just one UOA would put your mind at ease concerning the other issues.

I would think that even excercising abundant caution for the bike would still allow for a yearly oil and filter change with a conventional HDEO. Look for stashes of the CI-4+ as the TBN is higher in these products. Buy up a few gallons and be happy for many years to come.

 

[PT1]

You are a candidate for Amsoil and a once a month 20 mile freeway trip with a 1 year OCI. I have a friend with a Harley Vrod and same deal in FL. Amsoil 20w50 is all he uses 1x per year.