Varnish and Deposits

[INTJ]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Also Pennzoil does not want you using something with their oil so who knows what percentage if any you'll get. The oil may cancel out the ARX or ARX may cancel out the Pennzoil.

I'd just use one or the other in short OCIs. If it was me I'd be using a 5w30 conventional with MMO every 3k and see how it looks in 9k miles.

Let us know!

Bill

I wasn't aware of Pennzoil restricting another additive.

Someone posted up on another board, suggesting to mix Marvel with Pennzoil; it was for a guy who sludged up from very short trips.
I guess it at least works in a combo... why I did it this way. Auto RX puts a restriction on PAO type oils, but base 3 and under is preferred

Bayman: I'm going to do a sample on the normal runs.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Also Pennzoil does not want you using something with their oil so who knows what percentage if any you'll get. The oil may cancel out the ARX or ARX may cancel out the Pennzoil.

I'd just use one or the other in short OCIs. If it was me I'd be using a 5w30 conventional with MMO every 3k and see how it looks in 9k miles.

Let us know!

Bill


+1 A lot cheaper and faster too.

 

[Capa]

Mobil also recommends not mixing any additives with their oils. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if every oil company does.

 

[INTJ]

Originally Posted By: GMorg
I know it's been noted above, but just a reminder, it really doesn't look like you have a problem. All things considered, it doesn't look bad. If it were mine, I would shorten the OCI, but I wouldn't do anything about the the cosmetics.


This is a good point. No other oil would have stood up to this, (maybe Mobil 1 extended)... I'm fortunate enough to have an area to look into the valve covers, otherwise I would have kept on truckin'.... Reminds of a Grateful Dead song.

 

[NYSteve]

Originally Posted By: INTJ
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Also Pennzoil does not want you using something with their oil so who knows what percentage if any you'll get. The oil may cancel out the ARX or ARX may cancel out the Pennzoil.

I'd just use one or the other in short OCIs. If it was me I'd be using a 5w30 conventional with MMO every 3k and see how it looks in 9k miles.

Let us know!

Bill

I wasn't aware of Pennzoil restricting another additive.

Someone posted up on another board, suggesting to mix Marvel with Pennzoil; it was for a guy who sludged up from very short trips.
I guess it at least works in a combo... why I did it this way. Auto RX puts a restriction on PAO type oils, but base 3 and under is preferred

Bayman: I'm going to do a sample on the normal runs.



AutoRx says Group 3 is ok if you need, ie, turbo, high hp, etc. I would run the other Pennzoil - Yellow Bottle - with AutoRx since you really dont need a Group 3.

To extend Bill's point, the add pack from Plat/Ultra may not work with Auto Rx, ie, 1 + 1 = 0

Source: My research when I did AutoRx runs on 3 different vehicles - 1 turbo, 1 V8 350, and 1 4 cylinder NA

 

[INTJ]

Originally Posted By: 91344George
Originally Posted By: Bayman
Originally Posted By: 91344George
A few OCs with an HDEO like Shell Rotella will do the trick.


Would Shell Rotella be better than Pennzoil Platinum or Pennzoil Ultra.


The two Pennzoil products are good BUT they are not HDEOs and will not have the same degree of cleaning detergents as Rotella.

I'd go with the Rotella for a few OCs and then switch to the normal detergent brand of your choice.

Rotella has a great reputation for slow but steady effective cleaning of highly dirty internals.


Yep. I've seen it this way too. This has been recommended also as an effective cleanup for *severe* sludge in a gas motor. 3 OCI's and you're off to the races... I considered this.

 

[INTJ]

Originally Posted By: NYSteve
To extend Bill's point, the add pack from Plat/Ultra may not work with Auto Rx, ie, 1 + 1 = 0

Source: My research when I did AutoRx runs on 3 different vehicles - 1 turbo, 1 V8 350, and 1 4 cylinder NA


I'm using base II, so I hope these don't negate eack other.

If so, at least the rinse phase will be another 3k of Pennzoil- alone - some benefit.

I'll snap these pictures again in 5k, but will keep in mind this caveat.

Thanks to everyone for posting.

 

[INTJ]

Originally Posted By: JAG
Deposits and varnish can form when the TBN is well above zero. The detergents and dispersants are not able to prevent the sticky particles from sticking to engine surfaces. Relative to each other, dispersants are better at surrounding larger particles at low temperatures and the detergents are better for smaller particles at hot temperatures. But relative to themselves, both are better at surrounding particles at hot temperatures than cold temperatures. Since it's winter where you live now, I'd put a single layer of towel over your valve cover to keep it warmer and better allow the oil to clean the top part of your engine.


Ah, so maybe I had some TBN.

I like covering the valve covers idea, but these are poor conductors of heat being plastic/composite...... I just did 50 miles, popped the hood and you can keep your hands on them.

 

[Bayman]

Originally Posted By: INTJ
Originally Posted By: JAG
Deposits and varnish can form when the TBN is well above zero. The detergents and dispersants are not able to prevent the sticky particles from sticking to engine surfaces. Relative to each other, dispersants are better at surrounding larger particles at low temperatures and the detergents are better for smaller particles at hot temperatures. But relative to themselves, both are better at surrounding particles at hot temperatures than cold temperatures. Since it's winter where you live now, I'd put a single layer of towel over your valve cover to keep it warmer and better allow the oil to clean the top part of your engine.


Ah, so maybe I had some TBN.

I like covering the valve covers idea, but these are poor conductors of heat being plastic/composite...... I just did 50 miles, popped the hood and you can keep your hands on them.


How is the Thermostat on this car? Has it ever been replaced, and is your Heater giving you good Heat?

 

[INTJ]

Originally Posted By: Bayman
Originally Posted By: INTJ
Originally Posted By: JAG
Deposits and varnish can form when the TBN is well above zero. The detergents and dispersants are not able to prevent the sticky particles from sticking to engine surfaces. Relative to each other, dispersants are better at surrounding larger particles at low temperatures and the detergents are better for smaller particles at hot temperatures. But relative to themselves, both are better at surrounding particles at hot temperatures than cold temperatures. Since it's winter where you live now, I'd put a single layer of towel over your valve cover to keep it warmer and better allow the oil to clean the top part of your engine.


Ah, so maybe I had some TBN.

I like covering the valve covers idea, but these are poor conductors of heat being plastic/composite...... I just did 50 miles, popped the hood and you can keep your hands on them.


How is the Thermostat on this car? Has it ever been replaced, and is your Heater giving you good Heat?


Bayman, thermo is good....original. I have a deluxe ODII scanner and it opens and closes per spec, indicated by realtime data streaming.

 

[gathermewool]

Originally Posted By: INTJ
I'm fortunate enough to have an area to look into the valve covers, otherwise I would have kept on truckin'.... Reminds of a Grateful Dead song.

This was kind of my point above. Spending so much on ARX and short intervals, you could simply cut back on your currently overly long intervals using the same oil, Amsoil, and let it do the cleaning for you, over an extended period. Either that or Choose something exceedingly more cost effective, like Pennzoil conventional, and change it every 5-7k miles.

Again, I wouldn't run any additive, nor would I shorten the intervals to as low as you are now for the ARX. Be reasonable with the intervals and I'd be you won't have any engine problems due to oil.

 

[INTJ]

Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Originally Posted By: INTJ
I'm fortunate enough to have an area to look into the valve covers, otherwise I would have kept on truckin'.... Reminds of a Grateful Dead song.

This was kind of my point above. Spending so much on ARX and short intervals, you could simply cut back on your currently overly long intervals using the same oil, Amsoil, and let it do the cleaning for you, over an extended period. Either that or Choose something exceedingly more cost effective, like Pennzoil conventional, and change it every 5-7k miles.

Again, I wouldn't run any additive, nor would I shorten the intervals to as low as you are now for the ARX. Be reasonable with the intervals and I'd be you won't have any engine problems due to oil.


Yeah.
My head is spinning from all the angles.

Bayman gave me a link in PM on ARX limitations on AL from this site. It generated 18 pages.

From what I gleaned it seems MMO, ( aside from the leaky seals controversy) does a fine & cost effective job, even as brought up in this thread.

There seems to a consensus to leave ARX in longer, and to rinse longer. And there is the idea to add MMO only to the "rinse phase," and this has worked well.

ARX was solely recommended by another board -- mainly because there are no issues with related secondary problems --as with other flushes.

My idea was to get back to long OCI's on a clean engine, and doing shorter OCI's along with an expensive Amsoil Eao filter, or a cheaper filter didnt seem the way to go. I wouldn't know when to change the filter or where the cleanup stage was.

The bottom line is I do not want the filter to go into bypass mode without me knowing about it. I don't believe the oil dash light icon will illuminate, warning me of a bypass, as they do with some imports.

I'll be disappointed if that hard- sludged- carbon is still left behind. If that is the case I won't do a second ARX treatment and go with 5000 OCI's on Pennzoil yellow for a time.

As I posted in my oil log copied & pasted in upper thread, Motorcraft Semi didnt touch it on 3 changes... maybe 5000 was too long here, and it wasn't able to remove the deposits that it generated in-and-of-it-self.

P.S.
Thinking on this in an objective tangent: This is an interesting phenomenon of 'being concerned about oil changes.' Sure it's an investment, but an entire message board themed around this?

So far I've seemed to be 'hooked' by it. But hey, let's face it, people are always hooked into something, though, no matter what it is.

 

[addyguy]

A long time ago, a previous member 'Gary Allan' related how he did 20k OCI's on Mobil 1 5W-20 in a 1980 Chev Citiation.

He said that the car ran great, but it certainly wasn't clean under the VC's - no piles of sludge, but a fair amount of deposits. Sounds like that engine was in similar shape to this one.

I'd back off the OCI'sd a bit, but as long as the engine doesn't burn or leak a lot of oil, it is in just fine shape.

 

[addyguy]

Question for the OP, what has the oil consumption been like on this rig?

Have you ever run it low on oil, ie, below the 'add' mark?

Running an engine low on oil stresses the oil, and can cause deposits.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: INTJ
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Originally Posted By: INTJ
I'm fortunate enough to have an area to look into the valve covers, otherwise I would have kept on truckin'.... Reminds of a Grateful Dead song.

This was kind of my point above. Spending so much on ARX and short intervals, you could simply cut back on your currently overly long intervals using the same oil, Amsoil, and let it do the cleaning for you, over an extended period. Either that or Choose something exceedingly more cost effective, like Pennzoil conventional, and change it every 5-7k miles.

Again, I wouldn't run any additive, nor would I shorten the intervals to as low as you are now for the ARX. Be reasonable with the intervals and I'd be you won't have any engine problems due to oil.


Yeah.
My head is spinning from all the angles.

Bayman gave me a link in PM on ARX limitations on AL from this site. It generated 18 pages.

From what I gleaned it seems MMO, ( aside from the leaky seals controversy) does a fine & cost effective job, even as brought up in this thread.

There seems to a consensus to leave ARX in longer, and to rinse longer. And there is the idea to add MMO only to the "rinse phase," and this has worked well.

ARX was solely recommended by another board -- mainly because there are no issues with related secondary problems --as with other flushes.

My idea was to get back to long OCI's on a clean engine, and doing shorter OCI's along with an expensive Amsoil Eao filter, or a cheaper filter didnt seem the way to go. I wouldn't know when to change the filter or where the cleanup stage was.

The bottom line is I do not want the filter to go into bypass mode without me knowing about it. I don't believe the oil dash light icon will illuminate, warning me of a bypass, as they do with some imports.

I'll be disappointed if that hard- sludged- carbon is still left behind. If that is the case I won't do a second ARX treatment and go with 5000 OCI's on Pennzoil yellow for a time.

As I posted in my oil log copied & pasted in upper thread, Motorcraft Semi didnt touch it on 3 changes... maybe 5000 was too long here, and it wasn't able to remove the deposits that it generated in-and-of-it-self.

P.S.
Thinking on this in an objective tangent: This is an interesting phenomenon of 'being concerned about oil changes.' Sure it's an investment, but an entire message board themed around this?

So far I've seemed to be 'hooked' by it. But hey, let's face it, people are always hooked into something, though, no matter what it is.





Keep in mind A-Rx is going to take a minimum of 2 clean and rinse phases, costing well over $50 and taking 10,000-12,000 miles. I haven't read their directions in a while, they were changing them often, and many people were reporting disappointing results even after 2 treatments. I'd use Kreen or MMO if I were you, save time and money. JMO

 

[INTJ]

Originally Posted By: addyguy
Question for the OP, what has the oil consumption been like on this rig?

Have you ever run it low on oil, ie, below the 'add' mark?

Running an engine low on oil stresses the oil, and can cause deposits.


Overall very little oil consumption. For example: A quart in a year,and I'd top it off in 6 months..... To me, truly amazing considering the time/ mileage interval. Somewhere I had a timing seal cover leak on crank, the cover was entirely coated with grime, so this was there for a time, and this was an added variable..... don't know what leaked or burned here. I replaced seal myself last year.

I ran Amsoil 0w30 and the consumption was horrible, but I never let this go near the bottom hash mark on dipstick.

 

[INTJ]

A thought or theory I'd like to share in this thread about these Triton motors (4.6 & 5.4)and being prone to upper end deposits:

These older generation heads ( '97- '2003) have only 5 threads per spark plug hole, and most F150 owners know or have even dealt with the infamous spark plug blowout problem that has plagued many owners.

This problem is in part due to the high heat build up in the heads, according to a TSB from Ford. The heads are buried a bit and the coil on plugs don't allow this tight area to do a good dissipation of heat; hence plugs loosen and wobble and literally blow out the hole, stripping it requiring an insert to fix it..... (a boat load of threads out there dedicated to DIYer kits.)

This may be the source of the deposit problem with this Triton design here. As I mentioned in upper thread, these valve covers are composite and this further insulates these cylinder heads.

Could cook and coke that oil up there.

 

[Clevy]

Sorry bud it's not 5 threads it's 3 threads. My mustang has shot 3 plugs out. I can tell you that from experience. I now have my 4.6 in pieces. I am heli-coil in each plug hole. Eliminating the issue from ever happening again

 

[INTJ]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Sorry bud it's not 5 threads it's 3 threads. My mustang has shot 3 plugs out. I can tell you that from experience. I now have my 4.6 in pieces. I am heli-coil in each plug hole. Eliminating the issue from ever happening again


Yeah, I've heard that it ranges down to 3 threads, depending if it came from the Romeo or Windsor plant, and year.

Mine has 5 and is still a potential problem. I've seen anecdotes of my year truck blowing them out. I check torque annually.

 

[gathermewool]

You said you're going to cut open the filter after this change. Unless it has an abnormal amount of sludge I'd forget about "rinsing" the engine and simply run your oil of choice at reasonable intervals until you're read to get a used oil analysis and extend based on that.

I wouldn't worry about any flushes or additives. Use quality oil and let it do its job over time.