Variable Displacement Oil Pump, 5W-30 to 0W-20?

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Blue_Angel, welcome to BITOG!

I can see you've thought this through pretty well.
You certainly would benefit from running a high VI 0W-20 in the winter months in Ottawa. As has been mentioned, for piece of mind it would be best to install oil pressure/oil temp' gauge to make sure the oil doesn't get too thin when the oil is up to normal operating temp's and then some.

Another option is to simply run a high VI 0W-30. Unfortunately no one makes a 200 VI 0W-30. About the closest we have in Ontario is the Sustina 5W-30 with it's 194 VI but it is only a 5W oil.
Or go with a 60/40 blend of Sustina 0W-20 and 0W-50. This will give you the lightest 0W-30 oil possible on start-up. Lighter than all 5W-20's and even all OTC 0W-20's at least down to about -20C.
Unfortunately Sustina is very expensive but a much more reasonably priced option is to go with a TGMO 0W-20/M1 0W-40 blend. It's not quite as effective as the Sustina route but it will still produce a 200+ VI 0W-30. The following is a VOA of a 60/40 blend but a heavier 50/50 blend will still give you a 200 VI 0W-30 with a somewhat higher 3.1cP HTHSV vs 3.0cP:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3024542#Post3024542

Cheers
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Blue_Angel, welcome to BITOG!

I can see you've thought this through pretty well.
You certainly would benefit from running a high VI 0W-20 in the winter months in Ottawa.


Thanks for the welcome CATERHAM!

Those blends look interesting, thank you very much for the suggestions!

I just got back from Cape Cod and picked up a couple of jugs of M1 0W-30 AFE at Walmart on the way home. Since it is a simple "off the shelf" solution, may offer benefits beyone the M1 5W-30 I'm currently using, is SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than buying M1 in Canada ($23/jug) and is on the approved Dexos1 list to keep the warranty good, I will probably go that route for my Cruze at least until the powertrain warranty expires. I would also like to use one oil all year round instead of changing for the seasons, and I do use an oil pan heater when parked at home in the driveway.

HOWEVER, after educating myself a bit on oil I'm now thinking about my other car which is long out of warranty; a 2002 Corvette Z06 with over 200,000kms on the clock. It came with M1 5W-30 factory filled. Would one of your high VI 0W-30 blends above be suitable for that engine? It has a bit of cold start-up lifter tap that goes away after about a minute of running, so I've been thinking about using an oil that's thinner on startup. I currently use M1 10W-30 in that engine, a decision I made a few years back after reading that the heavier oil was better at high temps? It seems now that information may have been wrong?

The Z is a street driven car and never sees the high stress abuse of a racetrack, the most I ever did was take it to the drag strip for a couple years after I bought it. It is retired from the daily driver role it held for many years and now just comes out on nicer days. Your blends above look interesting and I'm not afraid to experiment a little with that car, nor am I that worried about spending a little more on the one oil change per year that car gets.

If you would rather I start a new thread so your advice can be better accessed by others, just let me know.

Thanks! And sorry for replying so late; been busy the last few weeks!
 
Originally Posted By: Blue_Angel


HOWEVER, after educating myself a bit on oil I'm now thinking about my other car which is long out of warranty; a 2002 Corvette Z06 with over 200,000kms on the clock. It came with M1 5W-30 factory filled. Would one of your high VI 0W-30 blends above be suitable for that engine? It has a bit of cold start-up lifter tap that goes away after about a minute of running, so I've been thinking about using an oil that's thinner on startup. I currently use M1 10W-30 in that engine, a decision I made a few years back after reading that the heavier oil was better at high temps? It seems now that information may have been wrong?

The Z is a street driven car and never sees the high stress abuse of a racetrack, the most I ever did was take it to the drag strip for a couple years after I bought it. It is retired from the daily driver role it held for many years and now just comes out on nicer days. Your blends above look interesting and I'm not afraid to experiment a little with that car, nor am I that worried about spending a little more on the one oil change per year that car gets.



The lifter tap is common on most GM pushrod engines when started cold, but as you said, goes away within a minute or two. I'd first say that your choice of 10W30 (while perfectly fine) may exaggerate the lifter tap slightly. The thinner the oil you can get on start-up, the less time your lifters will tap (as they will fill quicker). Of all the GM pushrod engines I've maintained over the years, a 0W30 (or equivalent blend) seems to reduce the tap to a minimum, even in the winter.

But since you're already using a 10W30, you may even notice a slight improvement by going back to a 5W30. PP 5W30 is fairly thin at most common start-up temps, and it still being a 30 grade oil, will provide you with the hot protection that you need. If this does not work, a 0W30 may be of benefit, but not necessarily (it's a case by case situation - generalizations never seem to work when it comes to motor oil). It really depends on the oil's actual viscosity at the temperatures you start your car at.

If your Z06 is generally summer driven only, then you won't get much better than PP 5W30 (in a store-bought 30 grade oil). Mobil 1 0W30 is extremely pumpable at very low temperatures, but is often slightly thicker at normal summer ambient temps than other 30 grade oils. This will not cause any lubrication issues, but may not reduce the length of time that your lifters tap!

btw... Welcome!
 
Originally Posted By: il_signore97
The lifter tap is common on most GM pushrod engines when started cold, but as you said, goes away within a minute or two...

But since you're already using a 10W30, you may even notice a slight improvement by going back to a 5W30...

If your Z06 is generally summer driven only, then you won't get much better than PP 5W30 (in a store-bought 30 grade oil). Mobil 1 0W30 is extremely pumpable at very low temperatures, but is often slightly thicker at normal summer ambient temps than other 30 grade oils.


To be fair regarding the lifters, the car has a very high lift camshaft, .631/.644 vs. .550 stock:

http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=L210065297

I had no issues with cold start lifter tap before installing that cam, though I did install new lifters at the same time so it's entirely possible that one or more of the new lifters is bleeding down more than the old ones did.

Going back to a 5W30 is now a definite move I will make. Comparing M1 oils, the 5W-30 has slightly lower 40C viscosity as well as slightly higher 100C and 150C viscosity than the 10W-30, as well as a much higher VI index. Based on that information alone it looks like the M1 10W-30 is a step in the wrong direction on all fronts, though there are likely many other factors that I do not fully understand.

Do you have a link to the viscosity specs for PP 5W-30? I can't find them on Penzoil's website?

A 0W-30, even a blend, still intrigues me for this engine. It looks like you're right about the M1 0W-30, it has a higher 40C viscosity than M1 5W-30.
 
Originally Posted By: Blue_Angel


To be fair regarding the lifters, the car has a very high lift camshaft, .631/.644 vs. .550 stock:

http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=L210065297

I had no issues with cold start lifter tap before installing that cam, though I did install new lifters at the same time so it's entirely possible that one or more of the new lifters is bleeding down more than the old ones did.

Going back to a 5W30 is now a definite move I will make. Comparing M1 oils, the 5W-30 has slightly lower 40C viscosity as well as slightly higher 100C and 150C viscosity than the 10W-30, as well as a much higher VI index. Based on that information alone it looks like the M1 10W-30 is a step in the wrong direction on all fronts, though there are likely many other factors that I do not fully understand.

Do you have a link to the viscosity specs for PP 5W-30? I can't find them on Penzoil's website?

A 0W-30, even a blend, still intrigues me for this engine. It looks like you're right about the M1 0W-30, it has a higher 40C viscosity than M1 5W-30.



Now that you mentioned the non-stock cam, that obviously would contribute to the noise issue at start-up. Still, that does not mean that you cannot affect it by oil selection by tailoring your start-up viscosity. Again, I just want to say (for clarity of others that may be reading this later on) that the noise likely does not represent any type of lubrication issue, but is an aesthetic one that you would like to try and improve if possible.

The Pennzoil Platinum PDS for 5W30 can be found here:

http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_X_cbe_24855_key_140007054941_201202271154.pdf

This is the newest PDS for the SN-Resource Conserving blend. This does not guarantee that the store you buy it from will have the newest blend (sometimes it takes years to turn existing stock over). No worries though, as the previous formula was similar (not quite as high of a VI though).

A 0W30 is something that you can experiment with, to see if it offers further improvement over the 5W30. But remember, its your average ambient start-up temps that you need to consider. Thus, if you normally start the car with a cold engine temp of 20 C on an average summer morning, then that is the temp you should be working around (very oil specific, not as much grade dependent).

Going back to the M1 10W30 vs. M1 5W30 example, the differences you found were measured at 40 C ambient temp. So at 20 C, those differences would be further exaggerated (i.e. viscosities will be even farther apart).

You did mention that there could be other factors for choosing a 10W30 over a 5W30, and there used to be very good reasons to do so. I'm not sure that they are totally valid any longer with today's modern synthetics, but with oils of yesterday, a good 10W30 usually offered increased resistance to shear / breakdown over the interval vs. an oil with a greater spread (i.e. 5W30). I think that in some very limited cases, this could still be true, but for any street driven vehicle (even your high performance Z06), I'm not sure you'd benefit at all from 10W30 over 5W30 or 0W30. It certainly won't hurt a thing though either way!
 
Originally Posted By: il_signore97
Now that you mentioned the non-stock cam, that obviously would contribute to the noise issue at start-up. Still, that does not mean that you cannot affect it by oil selection by tailoring your start-up viscosity. Again, I just want to say (for clarity of others that may be reading this later on) that the noise likely does not represent any type of lubrication issue, but is an aesthetic one that you would like to try and improve if possible.


That camshaft causes the valvetrain to be noisy ALL the time compared to the stock cam, but that was completely expected before I installed it. You're right, there's no lubrication issue here, just a time-to-fill issue on cold startup.

Originally Posted By: il_signore97
The Pennzoil Platinum PDS for 5W30 can be found here:

http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_X_cbe_24855_key_140007054941_201202271154.pdf

This is the newest PDS for the SN-Resource Conserving blend. This does not guarantee that the store you buy it from will have the newest blend (sometimes it takes years to turn existing stock over). No worries though, as the previous formula was similar (not quite as high of a VI though).


Thanks for the info! That definitely looks like a good option, and may even rival the M1 0W-30 at all but the lowerst temperatures.

Originally Posted By: il_signore97
A 0W30 is something that you can experiment with, to see if it offers further improvement over the 5W30. But remember, its your average ambient start-up temps that you need to consider. Thus, if you normally start the car with a cold engine temp of 20 C on an average summer morning, then that is the temp you should be working around (very oil specific, not as much grade dependent).

Going back to the M1 10W30 vs. M1 5W30 example, the differences you found were measured at 40 C ambient temp. So at 20 C, those differences would be further exaggerated (i.e. viscosities will be even farther apart).


Exactly, and very good point. I would say the average morning start-up temp is less than 20C. On that note, would it be safe to plot the difference on a graph using straight lines extended from the 100C and 40C data points? I realise the actual numerical values would not be correct (non-linear change vs. temperature), but would the % difference be correct?

Originally Posted By: il_signore97
You did mention that there could be other factors for choosing a 10W30 over a 5W30, and there used to be very good reasons to do so. I'm not sure that they are totally valid any longer with today's modern synthetics, but with oils of yesterday, a good 10W30 usually offered increased resistance to shear / breakdown over the interval vs. an oil with a greater spread (i.e. 5W30). I think that in some very limited cases, this could still be true, but for any street driven vehicle (even your high performance Z06), I'm not sure you'd benefit at all from 10W30 over 5W30 or 0W30. It certainly won't hurt a thing though either way!


My "high performance" Z06 probably doesn't place any "high performance" demand on it's oil beyond what most street driven vehicles do. If the car lived on a race track I'd be concerned more about the oil's high temperature qualities, and that would be true of any car raced. In reality, the valvetrain in this car is more highly stressed than most due to the camshaft upgrade, but it is still just a street car and from an oil's perspective I don't think it makes much difference. It's just a big engine in a light car... nothing overly complicated about that formula.
smile.gif


Thanks for all of your input!
 
Originally Posted By: Blue_Angel


Exactly, and very good point. I would say the average morning start-up temp is less than 20C. On that note, would it be safe to plot the difference on a graph using straight lines extended from the 100C and 40C data points? I realise the actual numerical values would not be correct (non-linear change vs. temperature), but would the % difference be correct?


You can use the Widman Calculator at http://www.widman.biz/English/Calculators/Graph.html

It is a useful tool to compare kinematic viscosities of oils across different temperatures by extrapolating from the viscosity index of the oil. As such, it works best when you compare oils of similar HTHS values and within a reasonable temperature range (i.e. not at freezing temperatures or below). The viscosity index is calculated using the 100 C and 40 C kinematic viscosity measurements, so too far outside of that range would be a guess at best.

Originally Posted By: Blue_Angel

My "high performance" Z06 probably doesn't place any "high performance" demand on it's oil beyond what most street driven vehicles do. If the car lived on a race track I'd be concerned more about the oil's high temperature qualities, and that would be true of any car raced. In reality, the valvetrain in this car is more highly stressed than most due to the camshaft upgrade, but it is still just a street car and from an oil's perspective I don't think it makes much difference. It's just a big engine in a light car... nothing overly complicated about that formula.
smile.gif


Thanks for all of your input!



No problem at all. And no matter how simple the Z06 might be, it's still a really nice car!!!
 
Originally Posted By: il_signore97
You can use the Widman Calculator at http://www.widman.biz/English/Calculators/Graph.html

No problem at all. And no matter how simple the Z06 might be, it's still a really nice car!!!


Thanks for the link! Understood - values outside the specs are a guess, but it makes for a great visual regarding the differences as temps drop.

The Z06 has been a great car. I bought it 9 years/165,000kms ago and have no regrets. Just drove to the Carlisle Corvette Show this past weekend, a great car for a long highway trip.
 
Originally Posted By: Blue_Angel
Originally Posted By: il_signore97
You can use the Widman Calculator at http://www.widman.biz/English/Calculators/Graph.html

No problem at all. And no matter how simple the Z06 might be, it's still a really nice car!!!


Thanks for the link! Understood - values outside the specs are a guess, but it makes for a great visual regarding the differences as temps drop.

Extrapolating values outside of the published KV40 and and KV100 spec's is not a "guess" anymore than interpolating values within the spec's. As il_signore97 mentioned, it is when extrapolating to much below freezing that the estimated values become something of a "guess"?

But an often overlooked factor here is that the kinematic spec's
DON'T correlate well with operational viscosity anyway, especially when comparing oils of different chemistries.
The following post explains why:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2000048&page=1

In comparing different oils the spec's that do correlate most accurately with operational viscosity are HTHS and viscosity index (VI) for other than extremely cold temp's and MRV and CCS for very cold start-up performance.

For your Cruise, M1 0W-30 is a great choice for an Ottawa climate due to it's very low 13,250CP MRV.
For your primarily summer driven ZO-6 you would still benefit from a high VI oil. I'd recommend a 0W-30 version of the TGMO/ M1 0W-40 blend. The following rather heavy 44/56 blend produces a
0W-30 with a HTHSV of 3.2cP but due to it's VI approaching 200 it's lighter on start-up at room temp's than a typical 5W-20 and all 0W/5W-30s including M1 0W-30:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3099599&page=1

Since you have an oil pressure gauge in the ZO-6 I'd suggest running the lightest blend that still allows you to maintain 50 psi of oil pressure. I suspect your OP doesn't get much below 65 psi on what you're running now so the original 60/40 blend is what I'd suggest.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
For your Cruise, M1 0W-30 is a great choice for an Ottawa climate due to it's very low 13,250CP MRV.


I've now got two jugs of M1 0W-30 that will last me until winter next year.

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Since you have an oil pressure gauge in the ZO-6 I'd suggest running the lightest blend that still allows you to maintain 50 psi of oil pressure. I suspect your OP doesn't get much below 65 psi on what you're running now so the original 60/40 blend is what I'd suggest.


50 psi under what conditions? The car has always idled with OP in the low-mid 30's with the oil hot, around 220-230F. This was true when I bought it as a young stock engine on M1 5W-30 and still holds true today running M1 10W-30 and a high flow Melling oil pump (soft "stock" bypass spring installed). OP in that range is considered "normal" for this engine according to feedback from other owners. I thought it might increase with the 18% higher flowing pump but that doesn't seem to be the case (Melling 10296, stock spring):

http://www.melling.com/Aftermarket/High-Performance/Cast-Iron-Aluminum-Oil-Pumps

Cold start oil pressures seem slightly higher on the 10W-30, but nothing drastic.

Do you have calculated/measured specs for your suggested 60/40 TGMO 0W-20/M1 0W-40 blend? How far does the HTHSV drop compared to the 44/56 blend?
 
Hi Blue_Angel,

The HTHSV of the 60/40 blend using the Cdn SM M1 0W-40 is about 3.0cP.

The minimum 50 psi is at elevated rev's.
With the soft by-pass spring in your Melling's pump I suspect your oil pressure is capped at about 65 psi.
Running the spec' M1 5W-30 in a ZO-6 on the track, oil temp's can get as high as 265F with the OP dropping to below 50 psi without issue. That's why I say 50 psi is a nice safe minimum and still include a comfortable operational viscosity safety margin.
 
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