Vagetable based engine oils better than synthetics

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What kind of vegetable oil? Where can I get some?? In the grocery section?
smile.gif
 
I used to sell Frier oil (my restaurant) to someone for his vehicle. It smelled like French Fry's when running, so I always knew when he was around.
 
that book is badly out of date due to its publication date of 2006

and is written with an agenda.

hardly gospel.
 
Keep in mind that vegetable based oils are not 100% vegetable base.

Base oils can be a mixture of many types of oils including vegetable based oils.

In many cases, a bio-synthetic oil is a mixture of Group IV and V oils, with the GroupV vegetable based oils being a "co-base."

In fact, the vegetable based oils (and some animal fats) are usually fractionated into their separate acids and alcohols, and then their acids are reacted with special alcohols to yield a vegetable-based ester of high purity.

Few vegetable oils can be used as lubricants in their raw state.
 
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Originally Posted By: Rand
that book is badly out of date due to its publication date of 2006

and is written with an agenda.

hardly gospel.


Do you see agenda in everything?

BTW, I didn't intend to talk about gospel.

The book has some interesting test results.
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule

Few vegetable oils can be used as lubricants in their raw state.


Thanks for chiming in, but neither the book or myself claimed so.
 
Oh no, what the heck have I started? You saw me mention canola in my post on the UOA board and.................. Well, people are complaining that the paper you pointed to is 7 years old. I'm doing my own experimentation and I do intend to post my progress.

Well, depending on what Blackstone has to say about my oil after 5k miles of topping off with canola, I'll consider thinning the T6 with a quart of canola instead M1 AFE next time. If Blackstone approves of a 5k run with that, I'll consider running it 50/50.

Basically, if the wear metals are similar to my last UOA and the TBN doesn't drop through the floor using it as a top-off oil, I'll run a full quart (25%) right from the start. Running the full quart, I'll be looking at wear metals, TBN, and viscosity, with my target being mid-to-light 5w30. If that all checks out after 5k, I'll run it 50/50, keeping an eye in wear metals and TBN and shooting for a mid-to-heavy 0w20 at the end of a 5k run.

Once I've worked out the ratio that gives me the viscosity I want after 5k, I'll get a VOA of that blend so I can get a picture of the starting TBN and viscosity, and use that information to extrapolate a likely long-term OCI. I'd like to push it to 10k if I can do so safely.

T6 is the perfect oil for mixing with cooking-grade canola due to its extensive additive pack. My application is definitely *not* heavy duty, so an HDEO is overkill; I'm running it for this OCI for cleaning purposes. I'm after a cheap source of esters without an additive pack that may conflict with the oil I'm running it with, and canola fits the bill.

Redline is an ester based oil, but at over $10/qt it's too pricey for my Corolla. On top of that, its additive pack is too weak for extended intervals and the fact that it has an additive pack at all precludes mixing it 50/50 with T6.

ARX, being wholly ester-based with little to no additive pack on top of that, is a near perfect source of esters to mix into any oil. Where it falls apart is price. Oh, and honestly... I'd like to be able to discuss my trials here. Can't do that with ARX and we all know it.

That's where canola comes in. Cooking grade canola had no additive pack, it will not interfere with the additive pack of an oil it is mixed with, save for diluting it. It's cheap; I can get a pint and a half for $3.60, which puts it in the >$5/qt realm, cheaper when bought by the gallon. It was used as a motor oil and industrial lubricant through WW-II and wasn't actually introduced as a cooking oil until the late 1950's. Many of the engines originally run with canola in their crankcase are still in use today.

In light of this history, and the fact that it is still used as a source of ester stock in industrial lubricants and many applications where API certification is not a "requirement", it would seem relatively safe to switch to straight canola and a short OCI. I'm not that crazy, though, and I'd actually like to see this car last another decade or two, so I'm taking a more cautious approach and applying my own scientific and engineering know-how, along with past experience, to work out something a little more reasonable.

I don't put a lot of miles on this car (I don't short-trip it, I just don't drive incredibly often) so this experimentation will take some time, but I'll do my best to document well enough that anyone here who wants to and can follow simple instructions can replicate my results.

If anyone wants to experiment along with me, PM me and I'll let you know when I'm planning my first 25% OCI, so we can coordinate.

Cue the detractors calling me a shill for the canola industry...
 
I'm more than happy to hear about the experiment, experiments are great....count me in (not to test my own gear 'though)
 
Keep us posted. You're a maverick. I love the idea. Personally I would add a zddp additive to the canola oil and mos2 before adding it to the engine. Backyard chemistry at its finest.
 
In Kart racing, I believe many of the karting specific 4 cycle oils are vegetable oil based, you can clearly tell from the smell of most of them.
 
Originally Posted By: KeMBro2012
Oh no, what the heck have I started? You saw me mention canola in my post on the UOA board and.................. Well, people are complaining that the paper you pointed to is 7 years old. I'm doing my own experimentation and I do intend to post my progress.


Yap, this post was a result of search inspired by your canola post. I was obviously aware of the castor oil esters, but I thought it was exception rather than rule.

Be careful and don't extend OCI in your risky experiment. Monitor viscosity closely, as oxidation is the biggest issue here.
 
I'm starting with just using it as a top-off for a reason
smile.gif


I plan to send in a sample at 3k. If it looks horrible I'll dump it immediately, if it's not looking good, I'll dump at 4k; in either of those cases, the experiment will terminate right then and there. If it's looking good I'll send in another sample at 5k, or push it to 6k if it's looking great.

Following the above pattern, I plan to sample every 3k while the OUAs are coming back looking great, every 2k while the OUAs look good, dump it (and send in a sample) 1k after an "okay" OUA, or dump immediately if I see a "bad" OUA.

I'll push it to a max of 10k this way, which will put me around the 2yr mark with my current driving habits (I live in a downtown area, I don't have many excuses to drive, but when I do, I don't short-trip).

If I make it to/past the 5k/1yr mark, the experiment will continue with me running 25% canola and 75% T6 for the next OCI, monitoring it using the same methodology as above.

If the 2nd OCI makes it to or past 5k/1yr, I plan to run 50/50 and monitor it in a similar fashion.

I do not intend to run a concentration higher than 50% canola.

Once I've gathered my data, I'll crunch the numbers on wear metals over 1k intervals and determine what ratio and interval to shoot for next. Just pulling numbers out of my butt here, I'm forecasting that my eventual result will be 1/3 canola to 2/3 T6 for 7.5k with a TBN near but > 1 and no increase in wear metals.

I'll copy this post and start a new thread when I send in my first sample from this OCI at 3k, and I'll keep that thread updated with my results.

Whatever I ratio and interval I find to be optimal during this experiment will be what I run for the remainder of the life of this vehicle. If I terminate the experiment before 5k/1yr into round two, of course, I don't intend to run any amount of canola at that point.

If anyone thinks I'm not approaching this scientifically enough, please post your suggestions. I'll consider amending this plan if someone posts something that sounds reasonable on paper and isn't going to cost me an arm and a leg.
 
Shouldn't you submit a sample of your canola oil for a voa so you can calculate some effects of mixing with the T6 before settling on ratios?
 
Originally Posted By: 05LGTLtd
Shouldn't you submit a sample of your canola oil for a voa so you can calculate some effects of mixing with the T6 before settling on ratios?


We'll see what my wallet looks like when I send in the first sample from this OCI (3k). If I can afford to have 2 samples processed without the wife jumping on me, I'll send the canola for a VOA. The only thing I'm gonna get from that is viscosity numbers, though; naked oil will have a TBN near 0 and no additive pack.

What I'm getting at is I've already run the numbers on the thinnest canola on the market mixed 50/50 with 5w40 T6 and the viscosity is in the heavy 0w20 range, with the additive pack cut in half. My engine calls for 5w30 from the factory but it's been running 5w20 and 0w20 for the past year that I've owned it and I helped the previous owner change it a year before that, with Redline 0w20, so it's got at least 2 years running 20 grade oils with no issues. I'm currently running T6 mixed 3:1 with M1 AFE 0w20, a mix which weighs in as a heavy 30 or light 40 depending on how you figure it; I've got room to thin it out a bit.

Would I like to run a VOA on the canola? Sure why not? Will I? I'm gonna run the experiment either way and I've already run the worst-case numbers and those don't put me in the danger zone, so... I guess it'll depend on what kind of mood I'm in 2800 miles from now.
 
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