I guess he could. I will ask him to.
using 10w30 in a car made for 0w20 or 5w20
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Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
PLEASE tell me who these "engineers"
work for.
I want to know what oil company to stay away from.
Really, I want to know the name of the oil company.
Bill
More than one engineer from each company (in alphabetical order): Mobil, Pennzoil, Redline and Valvoline.
PLEASE tell me who these "engineers"
I want to know what oil company to stay away from.
Really, I want to know the name of the oil company.
Bill
More than one engineer from each company (in alphabetical order): Mobil, Pennzoil, Redline and Valvoline.
Originally Posted By: notalk
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
PLEASE tell me who these "engineers"
work for.
I want to know what oil company to stay away from.
Really, I want to know the name of the oil company.
Bill
More than one engineer from each company (in alphabetical order): Mobil, Pennzoil, Redline and Valvoline.
Go ahead and ask whatever brands are left. I need to find a oil company that have REAL "engineers" who have a clue.
Because if they *really* think this, I don't want to run their oils.
Bill
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
PLEASE tell me who these "engineers"
I want to know what oil company to stay away from.
Really, I want to know the name of the oil company.
Bill
More than one engineer from each company (in alphabetical order): Mobil, Pennzoil, Redline and Valvoline.
Go ahead and ask whatever brands are left. I need to find a oil company that have REAL "engineers" who have a clue.
Because if they *really* think this, I don't want to run their oils.
Bill
Do what you want. I thought I made it clear I was just passing along this information. I am not a chemical engineer. All I am saying is that I have not heard any contradictory information from anyone otherwise professionally associated with an oil producing company.
But, following the advice of others posting on this thread who suggest sticking with the manufacturer's recommendation, I really do not expect to find someone in a position of authority in an oil producing company who would support going to heavier viscosities than what the manufacturer suggests.
But, following the advice of others posting on this thread who suggest sticking with the manufacturer's recommendation, I really do not expect to find someone in a position of authority in an oil producing company who would support going to heavier viscosities than what the manufacturer suggests.
Local Toyota dealers in my part of the world use Toyota-supplied 20W-50 on the 2AZ-FE, synthetics not required. Temps here rarely go below 22°C/72°F. Most common is around 28°C-30°C (82°F-86°F).
Originally Posted By: Steve S
Originally Posted By: milwaukee
Yes you can use it. Yes it is inferior in every way to the 0w-20 and 5w-20 in that motor. I doubt it will cause a problem but the thinner oil are better.
What makes thinner better?
Better flow at all temps and better base oil for starters.
Originally Posted By: milwaukee
Yes you can use it. Yes it is inferior in every way to the 0w-20 and 5w-20 in that motor. I doubt it will cause a problem but the thinner oil are better.
What makes thinner better?
Better flow at all temps and better base oil for starters.
Would using Mobil 0w-30 in a engine that US manual spec'd for 5w-20 ever cause the engine light to come on?
I live in southern AZ where it's hot (it's still in the upper 90's here).
I live in southern AZ where it's hot (it's still in the upper 90's here).
nope. Mine hasn't in 7000kms. (09 corolla 1.8L)
Originally Posted By: tuksonrider
Would using Mobil 0w-30 in a engine that US manual spec'd for 5w-20 ever cause the engine light to come on?
I live in southern AZ where it's hot (it's still in the upper 90's here).
Nope.
But its not needed. 5w-20 has proven its self over and over.
Would using Mobil 0w-30 in a engine that US manual spec'd for 5w-20 ever cause the engine light to come on?
I live in southern AZ where it's hot (it's still in the upper 90's here).
Nope.
But its not needed. 5w-20 has proven its self over and over.
Originally Posted By: tuksonrider
Would using Mobil 0w-30 in a engine that US manual spec'd for 5w-20 ever cause the engine light to come on?
I live in southern AZ where it's hot (it's still in the upper 90's here).
The oil light will only come on due to lack of oil pressure in most cars... You won't have a problem.
Would using Mobil 0w-30 in a engine that US manual spec'd for 5w-20 ever cause the engine light to come on?
I live in southern AZ where it's hot (it's still in the upper 90's here).
The oil light will only come on due to lack of oil pressure in most cars... You won't have a problem.
The argument that a specialized viscosity is needed for the engine to operate properly does not seem to account that all oils go through a wide range of viscs as they warm up. The viscs therefore overlap substantially. Any engine that sensitive is not a great engine. The only visc problems are on the too thick and too thin extremes. That is, a cold oil too thick to crank + flow and a hot oil that has thinned too far. Anything inbetween those two extremes is fair play.
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
The argument that a specialized viscosity is needed for the engine to operate properly does not seem to account that all oils go through a wide range of viscs as they warm up. The viscs therefore overlap substantially. Any engine that sensitive is not a great engine. The only visc problems are on the too thick and too thin extremes. That is, a cold oil too thick to crank + flow and a hot oil that has thinned too far. Anything inbetween those two extremes is fair play.
Some engines use technologies that are not operational when the engine is cold. For example, I understand that some variable valve timing systems and some multiple displacement systems do not operate when the engine is cold...possibly to account for this change in viscosity from cold to warm, as you mention.
Chrysler's Hemi engine uses ONLY 5W-20. There are countless examples of folks having problems with the system when using a higher weight oil. I'm not saying that every engine is like that, but it's very possible that there was an engineering reason why 5W-20 was specified for this particular Toyota engine (in the Camry).
I think few of us know all of the exact reasons why a particular viscosity is specified for any given engine. For example, Chrysler switched its 3.3/3.8 engines in its minivans to 5W-20 for the 2005 model year. Why? Common explanation #1: fuel economy. Okay. The EPA ratings didn't change, but it's plausible anyway. Why didn't they change ALL of their engines to that grade? Hard to tell. Common explanation #2: simpler inventory. Again, maybe. 5W-30 is still one of the most common grades out there, and is certainly still stocked by Chrysler dealers because the majority of their engines still take that grade. Seemingly blowing both common explanations out of the water is their new 4.0L V6 engine in the 2008+ vans. It doesn't use 5W-20, and doesn't even use 5W-30. It uses a full-bodied 10W-30, one of the few current engines in Chrysler's stable left running that weight. Why didn't they go with 5W-20, or even 5W-30? Certainly fuel economy would have been better, yes? Certainly inventory would have been simpler...to be able to service any 2008+ van with 5W-20, yes? Evidently, there's a reason behind the scenes for the decision, and a reason we may not ever know.
To answer a previous question about what makes the thinner oil better...to steal a quote from Bill In Utah: because it's the specified grade, that's why.
The argument that a specialized viscosity is needed for the engine to operate properly does not seem to account that all oils go through a wide range of viscs as they warm up. The viscs therefore overlap substantially. Any engine that sensitive is not a great engine. The only visc problems are on the too thick and too thin extremes. That is, a cold oil too thick to crank + flow and a hot oil that has thinned too far. Anything inbetween those two extremes is fair play.
Some engines use technologies that are not operational when the engine is cold. For example, I understand that some variable valve timing systems and some multiple displacement systems do not operate when the engine is cold...possibly to account for this change in viscosity from cold to warm, as you mention.
Chrysler's Hemi engine uses ONLY 5W-20. There are countless examples of folks having problems with the system when using a higher weight oil. I'm not saying that every engine is like that, but it's very possible that there was an engineering reason why 5W-20 was specified for this particular Toyota engine (in the Camry).
I think few of us know all of the exact reasons why a particular viscosity is specified for any given engine. For example, Chrysler switched its 3.3/3.8 engines in its minivans to 5W-20 for the 2005 model year. Why? Common explanation #1: fuel economy. Okay. The EPA ratings didn't change, but it's plausible anyway. Why didn't they change ALL of their engines to that grade? Hard to tell. Common explanation #2: simpler inventory. Again, maybe. 5W-30 is still one of the most common grades out there, and is certainly still stocked by Chrysler dealers because the majority of their engines still take that grade. Seemingly blowing both common explanations out of the water is their new 4.0L V6 engine in the 2008+ vans. It doesn't use 5W-20, and doesn't even use 5W-30. It uses a full-bodied 10W-30, one of the few current engines in Chrysler's stable left running that weight. Why didn't they go with 5W-20, or even 5W-30? Certainly fuel economy would have been better, yes? Certainly inventory would have been simpler...to be able to service any 2008+ van with 5W-20, yes? Evidently, there's a reason behind the scenes for the decision, and a reason we may not ever know.
To answer a previous question about what makes the thinner oil better...to steal a quote from Bill In Utah: because it's the specified grade, that's why.
Something as simple as consumption control can explain a 10w-30 recommendation. The exact formula of the 10w-30, such as a good synth basestock, could produce visc overlap with a dino or dated (SJ) 5w-30.
My oldest daughter has a Dodge that calls for 5W-20. It now has about 122,000 miles on Mobil 1 15W-50 and gets much beter gas mileage than EPA estimates. My youngest daughter has a new 2008 Jeep that calls for 5W-20. I had her change to Mobil 1 15W-50 the day she got it. I want them and my grandchildren to have the superior protection of a decent viscosity useable oil.
FrankN4, If you have only driven your vehicles to 122K, then whatr evidence are you using to recommend 15W50??
Of course Mobil 1 15W50 does flow better than mineral oil and low temps and is less likely to cause greatly accelerated wear than mineral oil might but......
1. Your manufacturer did not want it in their vehicle
2. most studies show the lighter oils increase engine life and gas mileage
3. If you go someplace cold in the winter.you might wind up walking in the morning!!
My two vehicles at 240K miles (one of whch tows continously) seems to indicate that 0W20 can be used without fear!!
Of course Mobil 1 15W50 does flow better than mineral oil and low temps and is less likely to cause greatly accelerated wear than mineral oil might but......
1. Your manufacturer did not want it in their vehicle
2. most studies show the lighter oils increase engine life and gas mileage
3. If you go someplace cold in the winter.you might wind up walking in the morning!!
My two vehicles at 240K miles (one of whch tows continously) seems to indicate that 0W20 can be used without fear!!
RE: Jason Adcock, 10W30 in the Chrysler 4.0 litre engine:
IS this perhaps a 90 degree V6?? GM recommended 10W30 for the 3.3 and 3.8 litre motors for years, while they wanted 5W30 in all the rest of their cars. The reasons given always had to do with the wierd "even fire" split crankpin crankshafts used to correct the inherent rough running that comes with a 90 degree V6. The split cranks push lubrication into a strange area, the split crankpin greatly reduces bearing width, and they also gave the bearing shell a convex surface to allow it to run on a surface that whips and twists more than a standard crank.
Any Crankshaft design engineers care to step in here and tell us more?
Incidentially, the 3.9 litre V6 used in Dodge Dakotas is a 90 degree V6, Chrysler chose to offset only 15 degrees of this with their split crankpins. The reason given was that a motor would not be strong enough for a pickup ( almost full throttle for hours pulling a horse trailer?) if they split it a full 30 degrees.
The early Buick 3.8's often blew cranks and kept the shops busy.
The first supercharged T-birds (also a 90 degree split crank 3.8 litre) blew so many cranks in the first weeks of sales that production was ended ...until a better forged crankshaft was introduced.
Most readers of this board are probably aware that most v6 designs are 60 degrees, but some v8 block assembly lines (V8's are nearly always 90 degree motors) were converted to V6's, thus saving startup costs but resulting in "cob job" crankshafts.
IS this perhaps a 90 degree V6?? GM recommended 10W30 for the 3.3 and 3.8 litre motors for years, while they wanted 5W30 in all the rest of their cars. The reasons given always had to do with the wierd "even fire" split crankpin crankshafts used to correct the inherent rough running that comes with a 90 degree V6. The split cranks push lubrication into a strange area, the split crankpin greatly reduces bearing width, and they also gave the bearing shell a convex surface to allow it to run on a surface that whips and twists more than a standard crank.
Any Crankshaft design engineers care to step in here and tell us more?
Incidentially, the 3.9 litre V6 used in Dodge Dakotas is a 90 degree V6, Chrysler chose to offset only 15 degrees of this with their split crankpins. The reason given was that a motor would not be strong enough for a pickup ( almost full throttle for hours pulling a horse trailer?) if they split it a full 30 degrees.
The early Buick 3.8's often blew cranks and kept the shops busy.
The first supercharged T-birds (also a 90 degree split crank 3.8 litre) blew so many cranks in the first weeks of sales that production was ended ...until a better forged crankshaft was introduced.
Most readers of this board are probably aware that most v6 designs are 60 degrees, but some v8 block assembly lines (V8's are nearly always 90 degree motors) were converted to V6's, thus saving startup costs but resulting in "cob job" crankshafts.
My Toyota truck has 301,000 miles on M1 15W-50. My Chevrolet Cavalier has 204,000 miles on M1 15W-50, put in the day it was bought. With my wife and two daughters we have 7 vehicles with over 1,000,000 miles on M1 15W-50, all but one had the M1 put in the day they were bought. My new 2008 Silverado gets M1 15W-50. If we consider the extended family and neighbors that I have converted to M1 15w-50, we have an average of about 225,000 miles on M1 15W-50.
I have seen ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE OF ANY KIND THAT A 20 OR 30 GRADE OIL PROTECTS NEARLY AS GOOD AS A 50. If I thought they did, I would drain every vehicle I have immediately and put in 20 or 30.
As far as gas mileage, no evidence whatsoever of better gas mileage. Nothing but CAREFULLY CONTROOLED LAB TESTS for CAFE requirements. Change air pressure in the tires and blow those tests all apart. All of our vehicles are getting CONSIDERABLY better than EPA estimates on 15W-50. My 2008 Silverado has only 2,250 miles and it is already up to 23 MPG. When it gets to the 20,000 mile range, I expect at least 25 MPG.
I checked the shop manual on my Silverado. No difference in bearing clearance, ring gap, wall clearance, from when 10W-40 was recommended. Only real difference I can find is it now has roller lifters.
When you bring a new engine home from the dealer, at less than 50 miles, take out the 5W-20 or 5W-30, put in 15W-50, then run up to 300,000+ miles, get better than EPA estimates, never ever a mechanical problem, and, in the case of the Toyota with 300,000 miles, have a compression pressure check be within specks, it must be good.
I had the Toyota in Dayton, Ohio in the winter, two of them, No start problems of any kind. My brother in law lives near Detroit, Michigan and has lived there for over 40 years. No start problems of any kind. 15W synthetics flow great.
Anyone can use whatever oil they want. In over 48 years I have never had an engine failure due to lubrication. In fact, I have never had an engine that wasn't running great when I traded for another because the body was gone. I started 48 years ago with straight 40 in winter and straight 50 in summer. I then went to 20W-50 for a year or so then to 5W-50 for about two or three years. As soon as M1 15W-50 became available, I switched to it. In 48 years I have never used a 20 or 30 grade oil.
I live in the Southeast, Ky, southwest, VA, and Northeast, TN area. When WalMart has 5W-20 oil that is over a year old and they can't get rid of it on clearance, I doubt many folk with Ford, Chrysler, and Jeep actually use a 20 grade. Most folk here use 10W-40 and many actually use 10W-30. If you go to one of the quick oil and filter places you will not be able to get 20 grade. I think 20 grade is being forced upon us for no other reason than CAFE. I am thankful I will never have to use it.
I have seen ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE OF ANY KIND THAT A 20 OR 30 GRADE OIL PROTECTS NEARLY AS GOOD AS A 50. If I thought they did, I would drain every vehicle I have immediately and put in 20 or 30.
As far as gas mileage, no evidence whatsoever of better gas mileage. Nothing but CAREFULLY CONTROOLED LAB TESTS for CAFE requirements. Change air pressure in the tires and blow those tests all apart. All of our vehicles are getting CONSIDERABLY better than EPA estimates on 15W-50. My 2008 Silverado has only 2,250 miles and it is already up to 23 MPG. When it gets to the 20,000 mile range, I expect at least 25 MPG.
I checked the shop manual on my Silverado. No difference in bearing clearance, ring gap, wall clearance, from when 10W-40 was recommended. Only real difference I can find is it now has roller lifters.
When you bring a new engine home from the dealer, at less than 50 miles, take out the 5W-20 or 5W-30, put in 15W-50, then run up to 300,000+ miles, get better than EPA estimates, never ever a mechanical problem, and, in the case of the Toyota with 300,000 miles, have a compression pressure check be within specks, it must be good.
I had the Toyota in Dayton, Ohio in the winter, two of them, No start problems of any kind. My brother in law lives near Detroit, Michigan and has lived there for over 40 years. No start problems of any kind. 15W synthetics flow great.
Anyone can use whatever oil they want. In over 48 years I have never had an engine failure due to lubrication. In fact, I have never had an engine that wasn't running great when I traded for another because the body was gone. I started 48 years ago with straight 40 in winter and straight 50 in summer. I then went to 20W-50 for a year or so then to 5W-50 for about two or three years. As soon as M1 15W-50 became available, I switched to it. In 48 years I have never used a 20 or 30 grade oil.
I live in the Southeast, Ky, southwest, VA, and Northeast, TN area. When WalMart has 5W-20 oil that is over a year old and they can't get rid of it on clearance, I doubt many folk with Ford, Chrysler, and Jeep actually use a 20 grade. Most folk here use 10W-40 and many actually use 10W-30. If you go to one of the quick oil and filter places you will not be able to get 20 grade. I think 20 grade is being forced upon us for no other reason than CAFE. I am thankful I will never have to use it.
Originally Posted By: fsskier
RE: Jason Adcock, 10W30 in the Chrysler 4.0 litre engine:
IS this perhaps a 90 degree V6??
No, it's based on the Chrysler 3.5L, which is actually based on the pushrod 3.3L, which is a 60* V6. Interesting, though, about the higher viscosity needed because of the even-fire crank from the old Buicks!
Frank, you are obviously smarter than all the automotive lubrication engineers out there. You're using a super-thick oil with absolutely no compromises, and you're killing their fuel economy numbers to boot! You have truly missed your calling, sir!
RE: Jason Adcock, 10W30 in the Chrysler 4.0 litre engine:
IS this perhaps a 90 degree V6??
No, it's based on the Chrysler 3.5L, which is actually based on the pushrod 3.3L, which is a 60* V6. Interesting, though, about the higher viscosity needed because of the even-fire crank from the old Buicks!
Frank, you are obviously smarter than all the automotive lubrication engineers out there. You're using a super-thick oil with absolutely no compromises, and you're killing their fuel economy numbers to boot! You have truly missed your calling, sir!
I've got 335k on a VW Jetta which has seen only 5w-30 and 10w-30 conventional oil. Mostly Valvoline and Halvoline in the first 15 years and then Pennzoil and QS for the last.
I've got 96 chevy truck with the 4.3 with well over 200k. 1993 Caravan with 230k, 1978 F250 with over 200k and I could keep going. All run fine, meet or exceed MPG and no issues.
I had a 2000 silverado 4x4 extended cab truck which got over 20mpg *easy*.
All on x-30wt conventional oils.
Our weather is worst than yours (The 93 van lives 30 miles from the Canada border).
The point is you can get well into a million trouble free miles like I have with my cars and family vehicles with normal conventional oils in the 5w/10w-30 with ease.
No need for 50wts or expensive oils like your running.
Bill
I've got 96 chevy truck with the 4.3 with well over 200k. 1993 Caravan with 230k, 1978 F250 with over 200k and I could keep going. All run fine, meet or exceed MPG and no issues.
I had a 2000 silverado 4x4 extended cab truck which got over 20mpg *easy*.
All on x-30wt conventional oils.
Our weather is worst than yours (The 93 van lives 30 miles from the Canada border).
The point is you can get well into a million trouble free miles like I have with my cars and family vehicles with normal conventional oils in the 5w/10w-30 with ease.
No need for 50wts or expensive oils like your running.
Bill
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