Used BMW

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: borgward
Yikes - You had to redo the cooling system at 110K miles? What model? $700 parts

I had mine overhauled at only 70k miles as things were starting to go south. It was about $700 in parts (online) plus $350 labor. New water pump, radiator, expansion tank, various hoses and belts.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: borgward
Yikes - You had to redo the cooling system at 110K miles? What model? $700 parts

I had mine overhauled at only 70k miles as things were starting to go south. It was about $700 in parts (online) plus $350 labor. New water pump, radiator, expansion tank, various hoses and belts.

I replaced 1994 Lexus LS400 cooling system for the first time about 2-3 years ago at more than 320-330k miles. The expansion tank was replaced 10-15 years ago for a crack on top of the tank.

I think no vehicle was/is more reliable/dependable than early years Lexus LS400.

 

[Alfred_B]

It was OEM parts from an online store. The expansion tank had developed a crack. The car was already 11 years old by then and I decided to overhaul it completely. I could have gotten away with a $50 expense but when you take care of your car, you may go A LITTLE overboard

 

[andyd]

BMWs have gone down hill. My first 88 528e was retired at 350K with the original alternator and several original heater hoses, main fuel pump. I never broke down in the 12 yrs I drove the car. However, I spent many hrs maintaining it in my driveway. I kept it running on parts bought mostly from World Pac distributors. I broke the relief hose nipple off the radiator and swapped used parts for a used radiator. I took over MDW's and got her into a Camry.

 

[Vikas]

Even die-hard BMW fans have hard time justifying BMW engineering regarding their cooling system. They don't even bother any more and just accept that it is what it is. There is no f'in engineering or manufacturing or cost reasons as to why those parts were made up of plastic to begin with.

At least with the dreaded high pressure fuel pump, I think BMW finally figured it out.

 

[camrydriver111]

Other cars are going in the plastic direction as well. BMW are just one of the first to incorporate large amounts of plastic.

I think plastic gets a really bad rap, but it's not always the plastic itself that fails in a plastic part.

For example the plastic impeller water pump gets a really bad rap. I think the bearings develop play, and the plastic hits the metal housing and shatters, making it look like the plastic failed. I've seen threads where people replaced their pump with a metal impeller pump, the pump failed, the metal impeller hit the housing, causing massive damage to the housing. That's why I've replaced my pump with an OE plastic impeller pump instead of trying to make things "better". Part of it is luck with your car as well. Some people go 200k on the original part.

I only had an E46, but on the E46 I think the expansion tank, CCV system parts, and the DISA valve are the parts I know where the actual plastic in the plastic part commonly fails.

The hard plastic coolant hoses. They are usually not a maintenance item and people don't replace them, unless they go bad, or you are very paranoid.

Other cars use plastic radiators and pulleys, plastic impeller pumps, but for some reason you only see the BMW guys bemoaning them. There is a lot of paranoia, bind parts replacing, and over-maintenance with BMWs. You have to think for yourself and decide what is fact and what is internet hysteria.

 

[supton]

Seems wrong to need that much cooling work at such an early age; but then again, some will gripe about doing half that for a timing belt job. IMO it's all relative; some cars need more maintenance/"expected" repair work than others. Whether that is from over-engineering or under-engineering, it is just something to keep in mind.

 

[Lolvoguy]

I've had my e30 for the last 13 years. It's was used only on summers when I first got it.
From 2010-2013 i daily drove it. It was always reliable and never gave a lick of trouble
except the one time I got stranded with a 10 yer old battery that was not maintained when in storage.

This is the second e30 I've owned and it's the only European car from that era I'd daily drive
due to it's durability. It's clean, no rust, well maintained, has great visilibility and recently has been gaining in value.

Since the e30 and e28's BMW has widely been known to have decreased in durability. As far back as the early e36's had poor quality interiors and weak subframes.

Unless OP is buying an e30 or e28, I doubt he will get anything as reliable as one.

They are the cars that made BMW famous (no exaggeration)

 

[borgward]

Thanks for the heads up. My friends BMW w/hundreds of thousands of miles on that I was impressed with is an e30. he reports very few problems w/it. I noticed a lot of the BMW's are now manufactured in Mexico. Don't know if I want to go that far back. The engine will eventually need to be rebuilt. I can do that, but the machine shops have equipment that was old 50 years ago, so I don't see rebuilds lasting beyond 100.000 miles.

 

[RooflessVW]

Originally Posted By: borgward
Thanks for the heads up. My friends BMW w/hundreds of thousands of miles on that I was impressed with is an e30. he reports very few problems w/it. I noticed a lot of the BMW's are now manufactured in Mexico. Don't know if I want to go that far back. The engine will eventually need to be rebuilt. I can do that, but the machine shops have equipment that was old 50 years ago, so I don't see rebuilds lasting beyond 100.000 miles.


What BMW is made in Mexico?

Rebuilt engines will last as long as they did the first time around if rebuilt properly, regardless of how old the machinery used to rebuild them was.

 

[borgward]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bmw#Mexico

In July 2014, BMW announced it was establishing a plant in Mexico, in the city and state of San Luis Potosi involving an investment of $1 billion. Taking advantage of lower wages in the country, and the terms of free trade agreements Mexico has with a host of other countries, were the motivating factors the company said. The plant will employ 1,500 people, and produce 150,000 cars annually, commencing in 2019.


My experience is that no matter how well you rebuild a motor it's life expectancy is limited to how good the machinery the machinist uses. I used to rebuild Datsun engines. I finally began ordering them rebuilt by Nissan in Japan (not the 30,000 mile used engines) Those engines lasted over twice as long as the ones I rebuilt. I began to realize that the best machinist was limited by the equipment available to him.

 

[RooflessVW]

So... Like I thought, NONE of the new BMWs are currently built in Mexico. I new the plant was being built and that the next 3er, among others, we're going to be built there.

They'll be just fine, certainly no worse than the South Africa built cars.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: camrydriver111
Other cars are going in the plastic direction as well. BMW are just one of the first to incorporate large amounts of plastic.

Not Honda.

If you remove the plastic reservoir of a Honda coolant system you will get a same coolant system of any vehicle in 1970 and before. You can remove the reservoir when the engine is hot or cold, it doesn't matter.

Honda coolant system will work normally with or without the low cost plastic reservoir.

Honda engineer is smart enough to use a proven system for more than 50 years, why re-invent the wheel ?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: camrydriver111
Other cars are going in the plastic direction as well. BMW are just one of the first to incorporate large amounts of plastic.

Not Honda.

If you remove the plastic reservoir of a Honda coolant system you will get a same coolant system of any vehicle in 1970 and before. You can remove the reservoir when the engine is hot or cold, it doesn't matter.

Honda coolant system will work normally with or without the low cost plastic reservoir.

Honda engineer is smart enough to use a proven system for more than 50 years, why re-invent the wheel ?


You are talking about pressurized overflow tanks, these are not what fail on most cars that feature them, they are a non-issue.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: camrydriver111
Other cars are going in the plastic direction as well. BMW are just one of the first to incorporate large amounts of plastic.

Not Honda.

If you remove the plastic reservoir of a Honda coolant system you will get a same coolant system of any vehicle in 1970 and before. You can remove the reservoir when the engine is hot or cold, it doesn't matter.

Honda coolant system will work normally with or without the low cost plastic reservoir.

Honda engineer is smart enough to use a proven system for more than 50 years, why re-invent the wheel ?

You are talking about pressurized overflow tanks, these are not what fail on most cars that feature them, they are a non-issue.

It did in my LS400. I replaced the crack expansion tank in my LS400 about 10-12 years ago for almost $200. Dealers didn't have it and the list price was almost $300. I bought one on eBay for almost $200.

What is the advantage of coolant system with pressurized expansion tank over the cheap reservoir ?

Honda coolant system is very simple, whatever it was in the 60's and before is what in Honda vehicles, the only thing they added on top of the 50 years old system is the $1 reservoir, the hose was available in the 60's system too. Cheap and work and this is the way I like(I am cheap)

Another thing, the reservoir in a Honda doesn't change color because it isn't hot at all time. The expansion tank got very dark opaque after about 100-150k miles because it can get pretty hot after engine is running for more than 20-30 minutes. Very hard to see though expansion tank in old engine.

 

[jeepman3071]

Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
jeepman,

That woman has money to burn and gets a new BMW every few years. The average person doesn't have $$$ for repairs.

Buy a new 2016 closeout Mazda3 hatchback , Accord or Camry than a used BMW.


I think you missed the point I was trying to make. People like my friend's mom are the reason I WOULDN'T buy a used one, because they replace rather than maintain. Easier in their eyes to just replace the car when it finally breaks down due to neglect than take care of it and have it a year or two longer. Sadly, I think many more people are this way than just luxury car owners, and the complexity of newer cars is making this more apparent.

Honestly, I'm starting to think it doesn't really matter what brand you buy, they all have problems no matter what it is. Name a brand, and there is someone out there with a bad experience and horror story. The important thing is the trade off you get versus the problems you experience. Infiniti is supposed to be the reliable Japanese import along with Lexus, yet you read on the forums about the V6 engines in the G37 sedan needing the rear timing chain cover gaskets replaced. The book for that is 18 hours labor, basically a $3,000 job. There aren't too many single problems on a BMW that cost $3,000 to fix unless it is something major like complete engine failure.

I have two friends with BMWs. One has a 2004 e46, heavily modified, the other has a 2006 E90. The e46 is cheaper to fix, but breaks down more often. Most of it is due to the modifications done to it. The E90 has needed a waterpump and thermostat, and that is after 90k miles of trouble free driving. An old co-worker replaced more parts on his supposedly bullet proof '09 Toyota Camry which happened to drink oil. It's really a roll of the dice.

These days, it is all about knowledge and what you can do yourself. Education is king. No mechanical thing is exempt from breakdown. No matter what vehicle you drive, the more prepared you are for repairs whether it be money saved or mechanical know-how, the fewer surprise bills you will have.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR

It did in my LS400. I replaced the crack expansion tank in my LS400 about 10-12 years ago for almost $200. Dealers didn't have it and the list price was almost $300. I bought one on eBay for almost $200.


That's unfortunate, but not a common thing. Most of those tanks last forever. My Expedition, with 200,000 miles on it still has the original tank, despite being on its 2nd radiator.

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
What is the advantage of coolant system with pressurized expansion tank over the cheap reservoir ?

Honda coolant system is very simple, whatever it was in the 60's and before is what in Honda vehicles, the only thing they added on top of the 50 years old system is the $1 reservoir, the hose was available in the 60's system too. Cheap and work and this is the way I like(I am cheap)

Another thing, the reservoir in a Honda doesn't change color because it isn't hot at all time. The expansion tank got very dark opaque after about 100-150k miles because it can get pretty hot after engine is running for more than 20-30 minutes. Very hard to see though expansion tank in old engine.


The change is simply the relocation of the pressure cap from being on the radiator (with the level checked in the reserve tank from the overflow) to the radiator and the coolant charge bottle both being pressurized, which I believe mitigates some issues with respect to proper coolant level.

It isn't any more complex. You've just included the overflow as part of the pressurized component of the system, whereas before it was non-pressurized. There were no extra components added.

The BMW tank doesn't change colour either (it is black, LOL!) but the one on my old Ford has yellowed a fair bit. Hasn't made it any less reliable however and there is no problem seeing through it to gauge coolant level.

I mean ultimately, rads have plastic end tanks on them anyways now, so complaining about the reservoir being pressurized or non is a bit of a non-starter given that factoid. Plastic parts are all over the place and whether they fail or not is not due to their placement but due to materials quality selection, variability in materials quality or sub-par quality spec'd by the OEM.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Another thing, the reservoir in a Honda doesn't change color because it isn't hot at all time. The expansion tank got very dark opaque after about 100-150k miles because it can get pretty hot after engine is running for more than 20-30 minutes. Very hard to see though expansion tank in old engine.

I exaggerated a little bit here, the pressurized expansion tank in my E430 was harder to see though on third or fourth year, and it got harder and harder every year. I could not see the coolant level without remove the cap since 2006-2007, and I have to remember do not open it when hot.

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
The change is simply the relocation of the pressure cap from being on the radiator (with the level checked in the reserve tank from the overflow) to the radiator and the coolant charge bottle both being pressurized, which I believe mitigates some issues with respect to proper coolant level.

It isn't any more complex. You've just included the overflow as part of the pressurized component of the system, whereas before it was non-pressurized. There were no extra components added.

The BMW tank doesn't change colour either (it is black, LOL!) but the one on my old Ford has yellowed a fair bit. Hasn't made it any less reliable however and there is no problem seeing through it to gauge coolant level.

I mean ultimately, rads have plastic end tanks on them anyways now, so complaining about the reservoir being pressurized or non is a bit of a non-starter given that factoid. Plastic parts are all over the place and whether they fail or not is not due to their placement but due to materials quality selection, variability in materials quality or sub-par quality spec'd by the OEM.

I think the radiator of my S2000 are all metal, probably aluminum. The radiator in my LS400 lasted more than 300k miles along with other parts except the dumb expansion tank. I replaced it more than 10-12 years ago, but I still hate it thinking $200 for a stupid plastic bottle is truly unreasonable.

But without it the car is disable. While I can remove the reservoir in the S2000 tomorrow and I still can drive it normally, the only problem is if I need to check the coolant level I need to remove the radiator cap when the engine is cool. The Honda reservoir is more or less is a convenience and safe way to check the coolant level without burning your hand or face. I priced it and it costs only $12(plus shipping) on Rockauto, much cheaper than the elaborated expansion tanks of other cars.

 

[Vikas]

I still did not understand what are the advantages of pressurized tank fro the manufacturer's perspective?

 

[Alfred_B]

It provides more volume of coolant so reduces the risk of the engine overheating. The caps are still pressure sensitive and will release the coolant into the environment if let's say you overfill the coolant and it expands beyond the acceptable pressure. In a classic expansion tank design, it's just a catchment vessel and doesn't contribute to the overall volume of used coolant in the system.