US Military Power - 2021

[CharlesInCharge]

To clarify we spent that 90 billion to equip and train Afghan military. It was handed over to them.

We left some of our own equipment behind and demilitarized most of and the figure is significantly less.

Weird. I'm seeing endless pictures and videos of Taly-bon carrying M4s, driving out vehicles and flying our Blackhawks around, now occupying our billion dollar buildings, pictures of them wearing clearly US issued Night Vision Goggles (sensitive items, controlled items), body armor, camoflage, US issued weapons, vehicles, other obviously US issued equipment, and so forth. What was "demilitarized" precisely. ??? You mean we didn't hand over anti-aircraft surface to air missiles like what is reported? I would certainly hope not. But given this unfolding it seems we probably did.

Oh, what about the biometrics and computers we apparently left behind, with names and biometrics on our allies. Oops.

 

[pbm]

To clarify we spent that 90 billion to equip and train Afghan military. It was handed over to them.

We left some of our own equipment behind and demilitarized most of and the figure is significantly less.

The Taliban now controls Afghanistan ....they have all the equipment we left behind.....they hate us.....Our 'leaders' (in both parties) have LIED to us for years about the ability of the 'Afghan military'... 20 years wasted, thousands of Americans killed or maimed and BILLIONS of dollars wasted.....the incompetent boobs even left the service dogs behind.....DISGRACEFUL....

 

[bbhero]

Saw a very very good documentary on Afghanistan about 8 years ago....

Our troops never could truly trust their counterparts in that country. Being set up for ambush etc etc etc.

That was very concerning to watch.

Nothing changed since that time.

And thinking we should be nation building... Is foolishness.

 

[Jackson_Slugger]

It's a racket. Imagine bringing a soldier from ww2 to our time and showing him the incredible firepower at our disposal and then explaining we have been fighting a twenty-year war against goat herders with rifles. and the goat herders won....

A simpleton take. No, we didn't lose to "goat herders". We supported one goat herder side against another in a nation-building exercise in futility and they collapsed out of corruption and the US, again, trying to make another mini-US Army...

What would the WWII vet say? IDK, it depends on rank, education, and training. But if a senior officer he may ask "why didn't you invade Afghanistan like we did North Africa during Torch? We simply shot and killed anyone that opposed us and there was no low intensity conflict, we went in with hundreds of thousands and simply dominated with tanks and artillery (provided the area was a strategically important and necessitated it)".

We haven't really done that since, nor am I advocating we should. But Afghanistan and VIetnam were every different situations than the "total war" ethos of WWII. The Cold War and post-Cold War world are vastly different realities and are very different from what we would've, and then could've, achieved in WWII. We had significant forces holding in Europe against the Warsaw Pact and there are very real limits on power, even with "the best military ever". In WWII we had upwards of six million men in the Army alone, maybe 600,000 in the Marines and then of course the Navy was vastly larger in terms of ships and manpower as well. Last time I checked the US Army is about 450,000 and the USMC less than half that...

*correction, the Army has increased a bit to 485K . When I was in it was closer to 800,000 volunteers. The Marines were probably over 200,000 under arms active...

 

[pbm]

And thinking we should be nation building... Is foolishness.

'Nation building' is an arrogant concept especially with the shape our country is in....both physically (infrastructure) and morally (corruption etc...)...

 

[Jackson_Slugger]

I don't know if we will defend Taiwan, but I think defense resources will be (hopefully) better spent elsewhere, especially with the thread of China/Russia.

We would defend Taiwan, for the near term anyways. They are the single largest manufacturer of chips afterall. For the long term, IDK. But they would be no easy pickin's for the PLA...

 

[Jackson_Slugger]

I agree with many, now fully disillusioned and cynical. War seems to enrich the elite, at the expense of the individuals and nation.

WW2: In under 4 years we swiftly defeated a 3-prong Axis that had the best trained militaries with among the most sophisticated equipment in the world with Germany and Italy controlling most of Europe and north Africa and dominating the seas with subs, Japan controlling most of the western Pacific even into the US Aleutian islands.

Modern "warfare" means lots of elite profit while Americans suffer and die and otherwise lose Constitutional rights for 20 years while we slowly lose to and surrender to goat herders with AK47s and some pipe bombs in 1 or 2 nations the size of Texas. Really trying to not make this political but Americans need to wake up!

Oh, and I should mention I'm a former US Army officer and multiple combat deployed veteran, and we lost good people on my deployments. Such a waste.

Who's "we"? The Soviet Union killed about 70-80% of the Wehrmacht....

And the British were fighting alone for a period with no allies...

 

[pbm]

There are now reports that the Taliban are sending some of the equipment left in Afghanistan to Iran....nice...

 

[CharlesInCharge]

So did we "win" or "lose" after 20 years in Afghanistan?

Did our expensive Billions of dollars of tax funded fancy uniforms, missiles, Navy, Air Force, and such make any difference. This is the biggest and worst route of a super power since Russia lost there, and since we lost Vietnam. A total humiliating expensive wasteful defeat of epic proportions.

 

[Jackson_Slugger]

So did we "win" or "lose" after 20 years in Afghanistan?

Did our expensive Billions of dollars of tax funded fancy uniforms, missiles, Navy, Air Force, and such make any difference. This is the biggest and worst route of a super power since Russia lost there, and since we lost Vietnam. A total humiliating expensive wasteful defeat of epic proportions.

We lost, and so did everybody else...

I'd add Iraq as well. A boondoggle that created a tyrannus Shiite majority over a Sunni minority we temporarily reprieved before leaving. But we created a corrupt, stupid political order that benefits Iran and created ISIS more or less...

That's the problem with the WWII analogies. You really can't recreate a realistic "total victory/unconditional surrender" paradigm with forces dispersed all over the world. But then we shouldn't really want too...

 

[bbhero]

Who's "we"? The Soviet Union killed about 70-80% of the Wehrmacht....

And the British were fighting alone for a period with no allies...

Ahhh we did invade Europe at Normandy.... And invade Italy has well.

Of course the USSR did much of the fighting after Germany made the stupid mistake of invading east.

 

[Jackson_Slugger]

There are now reports that the Taliban are sending some of the equipment left in Afghanistan to Iran....nice...

I wouldn't worry. It didn't do the Afghan Army much good and the Iranians already have lots of old American stuff. I doubt a few garage-queen UH-60's or Hughes500MD's (about the only major things we left there) will tip any balance...

BTW, I would only put so much stock in that - you realize the Taliban and Iran are historical enemies, right? Iran nearly invaded them in the late 1990's...

 

[Jackson_Slugger]

Ahhh we did invade Europe at Normandy.... And invade Italy has well.

Of course the USSR did much of the fighting after Germany made the stupid mistake of invading east.

Yes we did and I am not trying to belittle our experience in the land war as fighting at places like Anzio was every bit as intense and terrifying as Kursk, just on a smaller scale (Anzio was probably the 2nd largest concentration of armored fighting vehicles killing each other per acre/hector than any other battle in WWII save Northern Russia). I was responding to the typical American belief that we did everything in WWII. We didn't. And the Soviets made many massive blunders that necessitated their huge casualties, and we provided massive support with Dodge trucks and Jeeps. But we weren't the only ones that won that war...

 

[Blagoje]

So did we "win" or "lose" after 20 years in Afghanistan?

Did our expensive Billions of dollars of tax funded fancy uniforms, missiles, Navy, Air Force, and such make any difference. This is the biggest and worst route of a super power since Russia lost there, and since we lost Vietnam. A total humiliating expensive wasteful defeat of epic proportions.

The real "winners" were those who benefitted from Afghanistan being developed into the greatest narco-state the world has ever seen. Business was good when GHWB got it up and running back in the 70's but the output was only a fraction of what transpired over the past two decades.

BTW, I would only put so much stock in that - you realize the Taliban and Iran are historical enemies, right? Iran nearly invaded them in the late 1990's...

Israel made a fortune selling all sorts of military hardware and support to Iran during the Iraq-Iran War, I guarantee that whatever makes its way into Iran from the Taliban is tiddlywinks by comparison.

 

[CharlesInCharge]

I wouldn't worry. It didn't do the Afghan Army much good and the Iranians already have lots of old American stuff. I doubt a few garage-queen UH-60's or Hughes500MD's (about the only major things we left there) will tip any balance...

BTW, I would only put so much stock in that - you realize the Taliban and Iran are historical enemies, right? Iran nearly invaded them in the late 1990's...

The problem is not aged vehicles. It is the explosives, particularly surface to air rockets/missiles, and the night vision equipment, and electronics we allegedly left behind. The explosives are very dangerous. The FAA is now banning all flights near the region. The NVGs are very sensitive equipment. We are losing our night vision advantages as a result. It's all very, very bad.

 

[Jackson_Slugger]

The real "winners" were those who benefitted from Afghanistan being developed into the greatest narco-state the world has ever seen. Business was good when GHWB got it up and running back in the 70's but the output was only a fraction of what transpired over the past two decades.

You see you're a bit dated here. That was true maybe up until a few years ago. But our big-pharma state is better than their narco one! The Talibs are actually cash poor right now because: who needs organic heroin when you have vastly more potent, cheaper lab created drugs like fentanyl or OxyContin?

Israel made a fortune selling all sorts of military hardware and support to Iran during the Iraq-Iran War, I guarantee that whatever makes its way into Iran from the Taliban is tiddlywinks by comparison.

I've never heard this. Iran was pretty weapons-poor during the war due to the upheaval of their "Revolution" on the armed forces and the lack of spares for their mainly American and Euro weapons. They outnumbered Iraq in manpower and were able to patch things together and also got illegal spares and stuff from China.

What specific Israeli weapons systems are you speaking of?

But I agree with your last sentence, there is virtually nothing weapon wise that will benefit Iran much. They inherited a large number of Iraqi aircraft during the Gulf Wars as well. Some other tech might be a problem like biometrics stuff, but again China and Russia have those capabilities...

 

[Jackson_Slugger]

The problem is not aged vehicles. It is the explosives, particularly surface to air rockets/missiles, and the night vision equipment, and electronics we allegedly left behind. The explosives are very dangerous. The FAA is now banning all flights near the region. The NVGs are very sensitive equipment. We are losing our night vision advantages as a result. It's all very, very bad.

What would the Afghan Army needed SAM's for? Did the Taliban have MIgs after 2002? They barely had them before!

A friend of mine was a US Navy AA gunner specializing on the Phalanx system, they only used it on ground targets. Even so, what good will it do the Taliban to shoot down airliners?

The Afghan Army was an army built for counterinsurgency and constabulary, they didn't have much in the way of offensive arms like armor. Even the choppers required significant contractor support which is one of the reasons they collapsed because they left.

Do you really think we have the market cornered on explosives and night vision? I think you are sorely mistaken if you think so...

 

[partspro]

I am 99% certain that a Carrier Group actually has 2 subs, multiple Destroyers, a total close to 22 vessels

 

[Jackson_Slugger]

Here's the hard truth, and this will be my last post in this thread:

We didn't "lose" Afghanistan in 2020 with a **** treaty. We didn't lose it in 2021 with a chaotic and rapid "Dunkirk" retreat, nor in 2003 when we forgot all about them because invading Iraq became the national obsession and they were second hand news.

We lost it in 1992-93 when we could have truly "nation-built" after the Soviets left and the Kabul communist gov't collapsed simply by sending aid and advisors that would have been welcome at that time, with minimal investment and no combat deaths. But we cut all aid and lost interest after the Red Army left and watched them devolve into civil war with a corrupt collection of pederast warlords leading to the rise of the Taliban and the Northern Alliance...

Rinse and repeat...

 

[CharlesInCharge]

What would the Afghan Army needed SAM's for? Did the Taliban have MIgs after 2002? They barely had them before!

A friend of mine was a US Navy AA gunner specializing on the Phalanx system, they only used it on ground targets. Even so, what good will it do the Taliban to shoot down airliners?

The Afghan Army was an army built for counterinsurgency and constabulary, they didn't have much in the way of offensive arms like armor. Even the choppers required significant contractor support which is one of the reasons they collapsed because they left.

Do you really think we have the market cornered on explosives and night vision? I think you are sorely mistaken if you think so...

Well, you make solid points but he problem is, NVGs are considered sensitive items even as I speak b/c they represent a tactical advantage. I also agree, why would they need SAMS. I would hope to hades we'd have more sense than to leave this stuff for them. But I served long enough, and seen enough, to know that these people at the top are absolute morons.... so I tend to believe worst case. And they can prove me wrong... we'll see when some airliners get shot down, or NVGs proliferate the world based on our tech.