US Military Power - 2021

[PandaBear]

Oh, night vision stuff. Taiwan bought a bunch from us and they said they would only last 7 days if China invade them, high tech weapon or not, and US have to join in before that. Some of the former Taiwanese military (one is actually a retired spy, a family member of my wife's side) told me all these high tech stuff is just nonsense for them, they know it is just a military industrial complex kick back they have to play along with.

They lock up those night vision stuff so they don't get damaged, they ain't wasting it in training and then having to pay for it again.

 

[PandaBear]

The math is mind boggling. I cannot say if this information is accurate, and it varies of course based on variables. But here were the unverified numbers I recall hearing.
* $15,000 per hour of use for blackhawk helicopters. Think of the millions of hours thousands of blackhawks spent there.
* $1.6 million per C17 flight in or out
* $1 million per year per service member for support and logistics (travel, food, security, medical, etc.)
* the price tag for every vehicle was staggering; $1/2 million for Humvees, up to tens of millions each for blackhawks, strykers, abrahams tanks, etc.

Just look at this picture I took in a blackhawk over Iraq 12 years ago! GRRR it's buried on a different external hard drive. I'll try to locate some pictures. The expansive bases and equipment were mind-bending. HUNDREDS of vehicles, T-walls, massive bases, billions of dollars before our eyes in aircraft, tanks, armored vehicles...

Now imagine how much it would cost to bring those thing back with FedEx overnight. If FedEx is not reliable enough (because union drivers do not like to get shot while doing $70/hr job) for you pay the US military to send them back, because letting the repo man tow away your car may be cheaper than flying it out of a warzone.

 

[CharlesInCharge]

Now imagine how much it would cost to bring those thing back with FedEx overnight. If FedEx is not reliable enough (because union drivers do not like to get shot while doing $70/hr job) for you pay the US military to send them back, because letting the repo man tow away your car may be cheaper than flying it out of a warzone.

What about the alternative? Just remove the ECU and leave the car behind? Some armchair quarterback would call you out and say you are leaving weapons behind, and if they do it they would have no problem.

There's a policy for what you cannot bring back. Blow in place, thermite, etc. You do NOT let the enemy have it.

 

[PandaBear]

There's a policy for what you cannot bring back. Blow in place, thermite, etc. You do NOT let the enemy have it.

What if your "allies" on the ground are still driving it? Do you blow them up so they are forced to surrender? or do you "trust" them and give them a chance with it?

I'm sure no matter how you do it someone can still call you out. Remember, there are many armchair quarterback with combat experience out there.

 

[CharlesInCharge]

What if your "allies" on the ground are still driving it? Do you blow them up so they are forced to surrender? or do you "trust" them and give them a chance with it?

I'm sure no matter how you do it someone can still call you out. Remember, there are many armchair quarterback with combat experience out there.

You raise good questions, but at some point as we were running away, cut-and-run, in these last few weeks, what we could not bring home and evident to fall into terrorists hands should have been obliterated. Sand in the engine does the job and costs nothing. A grenade on the dash with some gasoline and a light rag in the driver seat works to destroy the electronics and make it unusable, and so forth.

I'm just really upset at this from all angles.

 

[4WD]

The math is mind boggling. I cannot say if this information is accurate, and it varies of course based on variables. But here were the unverified numbers I recall hearing.
* $15,000 per hour of use for blackhawk helicopters. Think of the millions of hours thousands of blackhawks spent there.
* $1.6 million per C17 flight in or out
* $1 million per year per service member for support and logistics (travel, food, security, medical, etc.)
* the price tag for every vehicle was staggering; $1/2 million for Humvees, up to tens of millions each for blackhawks, strykers, abrahams tanks, etc.

Just look at this picture I took in a blackhawk over Iraq 12 years ago! GRRR it's buried on a different external hard drive. I'll try to locate some pictures. The expansive bases and equipment were mind-bending. HUNDREDS of vehicles, T-walls, massive bases, billions of dollars before our eyes in aircraft, tanks, armored vehicles...

It’s a trap.
They changed out Redline 0W40 for SuperTech 5W20 and Fram Ultras with Motorcraft

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

There is no way in hell the U.S. will go nose to nose with China in their back yard.

I agree.
When I enlisted in 1984 we trained to go to war with Russia, China, and N. Korea.
Back then it was China 3 to 1 Chinese soldiers VS America. What is it today, 5 to 1?
What the higher ups in the Pentagon are allowing in our military today..................

 

[greenjp]

"A few hummers and M16s" Good lord, read the news! We left something like 85 BILLION dollars in gear, equipment, weapons, vehicles....

That figure is not correct, as was mentioned earlier in the thread. It's an estimate of the sum total of all expenditures since 2001 on the "Afghan National Defense and Security Force", including stuff like training, housing, etc. The estimate in the linked article was that the equipment over the full 20 years might have been on the order of $24B (still a lot!), much of which may not actually exist anymore or is stuff that the Taliban is unlikely to be able to operate for any significant amount of time. And like somebody else mentioned it wasn't US military gear, it was given to the Afghans. So short of taking it all back or blowing it all up before and during our withdrawal (which of course we would not have done because we (mistakenly) assumed they'd be making good use of it defending their government), there really wasn't a course of action that would have led to a different result.

jeff

 

[PandaBear]

I agree.
When I enlisted in 1984 we trained to go to war with Russia, China, and N. Korea.
Back then it was China 3 to 1 Chinese soldiers VS America. What is it today, 5 to 1?
What the higher ups in the Pentagon are allowing in our military today..................

I think China is trying to reduce their military head count but making it more advanced. Back then they bragged about rice and rifle can win airplanes and cannons, but I don't think anyone younger than 70 would believe that anymore.

 

[CharlesInCharge]

That figure is not correct, as was mentioned earlier in the thread. It's an estimate of the sum total of all expenditures since 2001 on the "Afghan National Defense and Security Force", including stuff like training, housing, etc. The estimate in the linked article was that the equipment over the full 20 years might have been on the order of $24B (still a lot!), much of which may not actually exist anymore or is stuff that the Taliban is unlikely to be able to operate for any significant amount of time. And like somebody else mentioned it wasn't US military gear, it was given to the Afghans. So short of taking it all back or blowing it all up before and during our withdrawal (which of course we would not have done because we (mistakenly) assumed they'd be making good use of it defending their government), there really wasn't a course of action that would have led to a different result.

jeff

Was it our tax funded equipment? Yes.
Does it include weapons, sensitive items, and useful military gear? Yup
Was it wasteful? It now appears so.
Is it now directly benefitting out enemy, terrorists, who are using to harm innocents and likely will continue to do so? Yup.

What other analysis is necessary?

 

[greenjp]

Was it our tax funded equipment? Yes.
Does it include weapons, sensitive items, and useful military gear? Yup
Was it wasteful? It now appears so.
Is it now directly benefitting out enemy, terrorists, who are using to harm innocents and likely will continue to do so? Yup.

What other analysis is necessary?

I was just making the point that if the figures are part of the discussion, they should at least be correct. And that hindsight is 20/20. As you note, "was it wasteful? now it appears so." (many people said it was wasteful years ago but that's a different discussion) Hindsight and armchair quarterbacking is easy though.

If the Afghan military had stood and fought off the Taliban for say 9 months as apparently our military/intelligence community expected them to, we got everybody out in an orderly fashion, and the gear ended up being destroyed or otherwise kept from Taliban hands, then we'd be having a different discussion. And if my aunt had a you know what she'd be my uncle

To the question "What other analysis is necessary?" I ask another question - without the benefit of hindsight, and with the strategic objective of getting out of there given the situation , what do you suggest we should have done differently?

jeff

 

[Al]

Threats to this country are asymetric. We can't stop an invasion across our border. And the upper eschelon in the military needs a housecleaning.This crosses political lines. Its always been this way.

 

[CharlesInCharge]

I was just making the point that if the figures are part of the discussion, they should at least be correct. And that hindsight is 20/20. As you note, "was it wasteful? now it appears so." (many people said it was wasteful years ago but that's a different discussion) Hindsight and armchair quarterbacking is easy though.

If the Afghan military had stood and fought off the Taliban for say 9 months as apparently our military/intelligence community expected them to, we got everybody out in an orderly fashion, and the gear ended up being destroyed or otherwise kept from Taliban hands, then we'd be having a different discussion. And if my aunt had a you know what she'd be my uncle

To the question "What other analysis is necessary?" I ask another question - without the benefit of hindsight, and with the strategic objective of getting out of there given the situation , what do you suggest we should have done differently?

jeff

As an actual veteran who deployed to that region for GWOT, let me just say.

This is not "armchair quarterbacking." We totally failed in Vietnam against a guerilla insurgent force after a decade, retreated and withdrew in humiliating defeat. We watched Russia fail in Afghanistan. We "won" in Iraq but the gains were questionable in 2011 when we cut and run, watching our "friends" surrender, give up our equipment, and massacres ensued only to have to return for cleanup duty. The nation is in constant turmoil.

What part of this cut-and-run, leaving billions of dollars of gear in the hands of inept ANA and AP who will fold instantly, is/was not predictable?
I'm an unpaid relatively uninformed external observer and novice student of history, and even I could see that the instant we fled, a catastrophic military loss would ensue, we would lose all influence on the nation, 20 years would have been wasted, and a humanitarian disaster of epic proportions would unfold. My assessment comes from pretty much 101 understanding - and I was correct.

So, my quirey is where are these high paid political and military analysts who cannot see this, cannot see 1 step ahead in the chess game? Or do they see, and just not care, or actually want this result?

 

[greenjp]

As an actual veteran who deployed to that region for GWOT, let me just say.

This is not "armchair quarterbacking." We totally failed in Vietnam against a guerilla insurgent force after a decade, retreated and withdrew in humiliating defeat. We watched Russia fail in Afghanistan. We "won" in Iraq but the gains were questionable in 2011 when we cut and run, watching our "friends" surrender, give up our equipment, and massacres ensued only to have to return for cleanup duty. The nation is in constant turmoil.

What part of this cut-and-run, leaving billions of dollars of gear in the hands of inept ANA and AP who will fold instantly, is/was not predictable?
I'm an unpaid relatively uninformed external observer and novice student of history, and even I could see that the instant we fled, a catastrophic military loss would ensue, we would lose all influence on the nation, 20 years would have been wasted, and a humanitarian disaster of epic proportions would unfold. My assessment comes from pretty much 101 understanding - and I was correct.

So, my quirey is where are these high paid political and military analysts who cannot see this, cannot see 1 step ahead in the chess game? Or do they see, and just not care, or actually want this result?

I'm not disagreeing with you. The whole thing for the better part of the last 10+ years seems pointless and wasteful. But if the topic of discussion is what an apparent fiasco the pullout has been, the question remains - given the scenario, what would/should/could we have done differently over these last 6 weeks/months? Stuck around? Sent more troops? Pulled out faster? If it was inevitable, as it now seems, that the government we were propping up would crumble the moment we left, what other outcome was there?

Your questions about the political and military leadership behind this aren't new. The Washington Post published a lengthy investigative report about the whole mess almost two years ago. That darn mainstream media again!

jeff

 

[CharlesInCharge]

I'm not disagreeing with you. The whole thing for the better part of the last 10+ years seems pointless and wasteful. But if the topic of discussion is what an apparent fiasco the pullout has been, the question remains - given the scenario, what would/should/could we have done differently over these last 6 weeks/months? Stuck around? Sent more troops? Pulled out faster? If it was inevitable, as it now seems, that the government we were propping up would crumble the moment we left, what other outcome was there?

Your questions about the political and military leadership behind this aren't new. The Washington Post published a lengthy investigative report about the whole mess almost two years ago. That darn mainstream media again!

jeff

I don't have all the answers, nor am I paid to have them. But I know enough to know the way we did leave was about as bad as could be orchestrated.

And as for the actual answers, I'll start with step one learned from infantry officer school training at BOLC I - III at Ft. Benning Georgia. Step #1. Kill, maim, demoralize and defeat your enemy to the point they have no ability or desire to keep fighting. WE, totally, failed this fundamental doctrine for 2 decades while we played patty-cake with the enemy. Just like Iraq. Just like Vietnam. I think it's safe to say that COIN fails, and every proponent of it should be prosecuted for dereliction of duty - but sadly that is impractical and the idiots who caused this will never suffer a penalty.

 

[raburn2906]

Leaving gear behind when bases shut down isn't anything new really. All of this is nothing more than a lack of integrity and dignity from up the chain of command.

Meanwhile Lcpl Schmuckatelli loses a PEQ-15 and the entire battalion shuts down and searches for it.

And... any missing gear when you EAS is paid for out of your own pocket.

 

[raburn2906]

Have you ever been in a company that was circling around bankruptcy and then suddenly it happens one day?

There were competing management goals of trying to keep it afloat and keep people working to buy time, they still need their computers to work with. Then there's the goal of keeping people employed just in case they survive and still have computers to work with.

Finally when the time is up the landlord shut the door, you got evicted from the office, your electricity cut, your janitor stopped coming and you run out of toilet paper.

Do you think you have time to eBay all the computers at the last minute? I sure don't. How about selling your company to another company and you have to merge and layoff some of the people? Do you have time to deal with all of their used computers and clean up their cubes? I bet you won't have time for that.

A few hummers and M16, a couple helicopters, are just candy wrappers (let's say it is worth 100M) in the grand scheme of things (2T worth). Without logistics the higher end stuff will be useless pretty quickly.

What are you going to do when you are late on office rent? Do you spend your time installing windows update? What are you going to do when you have an evacuation? You don't prioritize moving weapons and leave people behind, you also don't do oil change like you normally would have done.

But if you have a specific deadline and date months ahead of time, you don't wait until the last moment to act.

 

[wpod]

You like Mathematics? I do...
$2T divided by 20 years = $275M per day.

That's $275 Million spent everyday for 20 years.
Gee, where did that money come from?
And, who ended up with it?

Anyway, that's the Math, if that matters. Your call.

With zero return for the dollars stolen from the taxpayers never to see any benefit.

 

[wpod]

Seems much of the USA thinks the AR15 is a military weapon

The uninformed have been brainwashed into thinking an AR 15 is an "assault" rifle.

 

[wpod]

I agree with many, now fully disillusioned and cynical. War seems to enrich the elite, at the expense of the individuals and nation.

WW2: In under 4 years we swiftly defeated a 3-prong Axis that had the best trained militaries with among the most sophisticated equipment in the world with Germany and Italy controlling most of Europe and north Africa and dominating the seas with subs, Japan controlling most of the western Pacific even into the US Aleutian islands.

Modern "warfare" means lots of elite profit while Americans suffer and die and otherwise lose Constitutional rights for 20 years while we slowly lose to and surrender to goat herders with AK47s and some pipe bombs in 1 or 2 nations the size of Texas. Really trying to not make this political but Americans need to wake up!

Oh, and I should mention I'm a former US Army officer and multiple combat deployed veteran, and we lost good people on my deployments. Such a waste.

The evil Axis did not have the resources that the U.S had, oil , minerals manufacturing and distance. We bombed German factories , our factories were not bombed, Japan was strangled. WWII seemed to have a goal of victory.